New TVR spec

[LordGrover]

900T-R said:

You're missing the point by a country mile. We're so bored of overweight, over-teched, overhyped cars that are very efficient at going around a certain mountain road in the Eifel but mainly because every single input of the driver is being doctored and meddled with, as is the feedback (in case of the latest 911 - what feedback?) to the driver. The F-Type superficially does a nice impression of good old extrovert TVR but it's a 1.7 ton slushbox auto FFS!

The 'purist' alternative on the current market is just as unattractive - stripped-out track specials that look like they are designed by a 12 year old boy, have no interior to speak of and dynamically are best left on the track.

That leaves Morgans (a bit quaint and drafty/claustrophobic with the hood up), and 'reimagined' old Porsches and E-types that cost 4x what a new TVR would cost, and have all the basic '60s compromises as a starting point as genuine alternatives...

To refer to the F-type quickshift as a slushbox auto is rather disingenuous, to say the least.

[900T-R]

LordGrover said:

To refer to the F-type quickshift as a slushbox auto is rather disingenuous, to say the least.

Does or doesn't it send its power to the wheels through a torque converter?

[m4tti]

V8 GRF said:

Exactly. I gave the Morgan chassis as an example of what I meant, not an example of best practice.

That said, so you think a pile of scaffolding tubes welded together looks better?

ETA interestingly I just checkked and the base price of an Agera is now $1.3million so even further out of the price range! That tub alone probably costs £100k

Edited by V8 GRF on Monday 28th July 11:33

Executed correctly the "pile of scaffolding" tubes can look "good", be very rigid and extremely effective.. I'll go back to my earlier example, with the Radical, which uses a tubular space frame.

[Don1]

Beautiful even.

[V8 GRF]

Don1 said:

Beautiful even.

I agree, but I said a pile of scaffolding poles a la TVR not an artisan constructed piece of art. That said that's not even 'that' rigid.

Regardless, you'll never get the rigidity and and accuracy of construction that can be achieved with modern techniques and materials,

The Radical isn't a really valid example for comparison as it's a race/track car that can be used on the road. As a result you can put tubes in places that you can't in a roadcar to get the rigidity.

[m4tti]

V8 GRF said:

The Radical isn't a really valid example for comparison as it's a race/track car that can be used on the road. As a result you can put tubes in places that you can't in a roadcar to get the rigidity.

Uhh where abouts care to give an example..

Ive sat in it.. didn't notice any large obstructions. You dont have to climb in through the welded shut doors like one of the duke boys.

Edited by m4tti on Monday 28th July 13:42

[V8 GRF]

m4tti said:

V8 GRF said:

The Radical isn't a really valid example for comparison as it's a race/track car that can be used on the road. As a result you can put tubes in places that you can't in a roadcar to get the rigidity.

Uhh where abouts care to give an example..

Ive sat in it.. didn't notice any large obstructions. You dont have to climb in through the welded shut doors like one of the duke boys.

Was there even a door? Even if there was (RXC) you had a huge sill to step over because the rigidity of the space frame is compromised if you make a gap in it to accommodate such niceties as door.

See RXC chassis below.



There's a reason the majority of high performance, high powered road cars don't use spaceframes anymore.

[m4tti]

Yep had doors.. same principle as a Noble.. which is also now doing pretty well as the Rossion Q1..

http://rossioncars.com/models/q1/specifications/

[DonkeyApple]

V8 GRF said:

Was there even a door? Even if there was (RXC) you had a huge sill to step over because the rigidity of the space frame is compromised if you make a gap in it to accommodate such niceties as door.

See RXC chassis below.



There's a reason the majority of high performance, high powered road cars don't use spaceframes anymore.

Man hours are the biggest killer.

Whatever the solution the key needs to be that the frame of the car can be banged out in a very low number of hours. And the shell that fits on top needs to be made accurately so that man hours aren't wasted getting it and the doors etc to actually fit.

Personally, I'd contemplate buying in the frame from someone already tooled up and building as this will be safer economically and source the shell from someone capable to moulding them very accurately.

[Don1]

Or to personal design, like the coach-builders of old?

[LordGrover]

Our merkan cousins have a few options, not sure any of them really fit the TVR niche though: click.

[billynobrakes]

as far as I am aware Les Edgar has already asked TVR owners what they want and expect for the new cars, I know he has spoken to Dom at TVR Power also the TVRCC amongst others and been told he is reading on here as what is being put up. I am sure they have done extensive homework on where to pitch the price and who to pitch the new cars at. I have heard that they already are testing cars designs etc

All I can say is, no doubt there will be new TVR,s and I am looking forward to seeing the first one, no doubt some will like it some will hate it, I am going to be patient and wait and see, I think there has been enough speculation on this so lets all wait and see to Les and his consortium for bringing a great British Marque back lets hope they succeed

[TA14]

V8 GRF said:

There's a reason the majority of high performance, high powered road cars don't use spaceframes anymore.

I don't think that there was ever a time when the majority of hphprc used space frames. Pre war ladder back chassis, post war monocoques.

[jamieduff1981]

900T-R said:

LordGrover said:

To refer to the F-type quickshift as a slushbox auto is rather disingenuous, to say the least.

Does or doesn't it send its power to the wheels through a torque converter?

I have that gearbox in the same setup as the F-Type in this car at home:



This car wouldn't see which way the one above went on a spirited drive:



When people bash cars like the F-Type I find myself wondering why I'm actually keeping the Cerbera. I'm seriously considering buying an F-Type. Infact I'll have to restrain myself. The XF is going back to the dealer for a little warranty thing in 2 weeks and I'm getting a V8S as my courtesy car. It's going to make me do some soul searching.

The XF above is better than the Cerbera in every measurable way. It doesn't go out of tune all the time. The heating and cooling systems actually do something useful. The handling is extremely playful yet safe and predictable - confidence inspiring actually whereas the TVR is st frankly. The XF is easily the faster car point to point. The F-Type is quicker still. The slushbox auto is a wonderful feat of engineering in that it lets the car be driven smoothly with seemless gearchanges yet offers near instantaneous up changes and rev-matched downchanges on command via the paddles letting me keep my hands on the wheel. Compare that to the crappy Borg Warner T5 that craps itself when 5th gear gets too much torque reversal, a naff clutch that lasts 30,000 miles and costs £900 for the parts and an equally crap slave cylinder, combined with one of the worst pedal boxes I've ever used with pedal spacings completely unsuitable for heel-toe gearshifts and an absurdly long pedal travel on the clutch that necessitates lifting your foot off the floor to find the pedal. It's pants. The first time you get stuck in traffic in a Cerbera you're sat in a sauna with hot carpets and an aching left knee and ankle shunting along with a handbrake that can't hold the car, hacked off and just wanting to get out and walk.

The TVR is good fun for a blast but is awful for everything else. I'd like to do some of the Alpine passes in the TVR but would be completely unwilling to put up with the car for the drive there and back - it's not even close to pleasant to be in.

The only thing it's better at than our family car above is that it looks sexier. Looks are subjective but I think the F-Type beats the Cerbera on that too. Why should I keep the Cerbera? The only reason I can think of is that I make a lot of money and the Cerbera isn't worth that much to sell so I might as well hang on to it.

I'm going to have to work very hard not to buy a slushbox F-Type in the next 12 months. It'll match or better the Cerbera for Sunday blasts and is a car that won't fill me with dread at the prospect of taking it anywhere longer distance.

[900T-R]

jamieduff1981 said:

This car wouldn't see which way the one above went on a spirited drive:

Which is a big part of the problem of today's 'performance 'cars unless you are hellbent on getting yourself banned or sectioned by the 'right thinking' parts of society. Too much raw speed for too little involvement.

Give me a car that seems to go twice as fast as it actually does and day of the week.

In fact, I'm going to hack the windscreen and roof off a Chimaera one day to achieve just that.

[DonkeyApple]

jamieduff1981 said:

I have that gearbox in the same setup as the F-Type in this car at home:



This car wouldn't see which way the one above went on a spirited drive:



When people bash cars like the F-Type I find myself wondering why I'm actually keeping the Cerbera. I'm seriously considering buying an F-Type. Infact I'll have to restrain myself. The XF is going back to the dealer for a little warranty thing in 2 weeks and I'm getting a V8S as my courtesy car. It's going to make me do some soul searching.

The XF above is better than the Cerbera in every measurable way. It doesn't go out of tune all the time. The heating and cooling systems actually do something useful. The handling is extremely playful yet safe and predictable - confidence inspiring actually whereas the TVR is st frankly. The XF is easily the faster car point to point. The F-Type is quicker still. The slushbox auto is a wonderful feat of engineering in that it lets the car be driven smoothly with seemless gearchanges yet offers near instantaneous up changes and rev-matched downchanges on command via the paddles letting me keep my hands on the wheel. Compare that to the crappy Borg Warner T5 that craps itself when 5th gear gets too much torque reversal, a naff clutch that lasts 30,000 miles and costs £900 for the parts and an equally crap slave cylinder, combined with one of the worst pedal boxes I've ever used with pedal spacings completely unsuitable for heel-toe gearshifts and an absurdly long pedal travel on the clutch that necessitates lifting your foot off the floor to find the pedal. It's pants. The first time you get stuck in traffic in a Cerbera you're sat in a sauna with hot carpets and an aching left knee and ankle shunting along with a handbrake that can't hold the car, hacked off and just wanting to get out and walk.

The TVR is good fun for a blast but is awful for everything else. I'd like to do some of the Alpine passes in the TVR but would be completely unwilling to put up with the car for the drive there and back - it's not even close to pleasant to be in.

The only thing it's better at than our family car above is that it looks sexier. Looks are subjective but I think the F-Type beats the Cerbera on that too. Why should I keep the Cerbera? The only reason I can think of is that I make a lot of money and the Cerbera isn't worth that much to sell so I might as well hang on to it.

I'm going to have to work very hard not to buy a slushbox F-Type in the next 12 months. It'll match or better the Cerbera for Sunday blasts and is a car that won't fill me with dread at the prospect of taking it anywhere longer distance.

CountDown is about to start grandpa.

[jamieduff1981]

900T-R said:

jamieduff1981 said:

This car wouldn't see which way the one above went on a spirited drive:

Which is a big part of the problem of today's 'performance 'cars unless you are hellbent on getting yourself banned or sectioned by the 'right thinking' parts of society. Too much raw speed for too little involvement.

Give me a car that seems to go twice as fast as it actually does and day of the week.

In fact, I'm going to hack the windscreen and roof off a Chimaera one day to achieve just that.

That's part of my point. It's not true for all new cars, but the XFRS can be played with like an MX5 can. Despite being quicker round corners than the Cerbera it's so well sorted than you can almost make it dance with steering and throttle. It's just that good. It's so easy to play with - and not at mental speeds. There's just no way I'd even dream of taking the Cerbera anywhere near its (lower) limits on the road because compared to the Jag it's unpredictable. The DSC on the Jag lets you get quite out of shape before intervening too - but provides a safety net in the end. The ONLY reason you wouldn't drive the car like that all the time is because a set of Goodyears for the Cerbera costs half what a set of tyres for the Jag costs.

You just can't play with a TVR unless on a track, and I live almost 150 miles from the nearest track and that would involve a day of my life stuck in above hot box not enjoying myself just to get to and from the track.

The point is that these new Jags are incredible pieces of kit, with much more depth to their personalities than just going really fast and setting Nurburgring times.

[m4tti]

Hmm Id say you've got the wrong car...

[V8 GRF]

TA14 said:

V8 GRF said:

There's a reason the majority of high performance, high powered road cars don't use spaceframes anymore.

I don't think that there was ever a time when the majority of hphprc used space frames. Pre war ladder back chassis, post war monocoques.

I agree, remove the word 'anymore'

It's unlikely that Les Edgar and his team are taking any advice or notice with regards to car or chassis design here apart from the general way it drives as they have TVRs of their own to refer to. If they can replicate the grunt and the 'je ne sais quoi' of a TVR but in a modern dynamic package that appeals then they'll have cracked it. That's easy to type but not too easy to do I'd suggest

[WolfyJones]

jamieduff1981 said:

I have that gearbox in the same setup as the F-Type in this car at home:



This car wouldn't see which way the one above went on a spirited drive:



When people bash cars like the F-Type I find myself wondering why I'm actually keeping the Cerbera. I'm seriously considering buying an F-Type. Infact I'll have to restrain myself. The XF is going back to the dealer for a little warranty thing in 2 weeks and I'm getting a V8S as my courtesy car. It's going to make me do some soul searching.

The XF above is better than the Cerbera in every measurable way. It doesn't go out of tune all the time. The heating and cooling systems actually do something useful. The handling is extremely playful yet safe and predictable - confidence inspiring actually whereas the TVR is st frankly. The XF is easily the faster car point to point. The F-Type is quicker still. The slushbox auto is a wonderful feat of engineering in that it lets the car be driven smoothly with seemless gearchanges yet offers near instantaneous up changes and rev-matched downchanges on command via the paddles letting me keep my hands on the wheel. Compare that to the crappy Borg Warner T5 that craps itself when 5th gear gets too much torque reversal, a naff clutch that lasts 30,000 miles and costs £900 for the parts and an equally crap slave cylinder, combined with one of the worst pedal boxes I've ever used with pedal spacings completely unsuitable for heel-toe gearshifts and an absurdly long pedal travel on the clutch that necessitates lifting your foot off the floor to find the pedal. It's pants. The first time you get stuck in traffic in a Cerbera you're sat in a sauna with hot carpets and an aching left knee and ankle shunting along with a handbrake that can't hold the car, hacked off and just wanting to get out and walk.

The TVR is good fun for a blast but is awful for everything else. I'd like to do some of the Alpine passes in the TVR but would be completely unwilling to put up with the car for the drive there and back - it's not even close to pleasant to be in.

The only thing it's better at than our family car above is that it looks sexier. Looks are subjective but I think the F-Type beats the Cerbera on that too. Why should I keep the Cerbera? The only reason I can think of is that I make a lot of money and the Cerbera isn't worth that much to sell so I might as well hang on to it.

I'm going to have to work very hard not to buy a slushbox F-Type in the next 12 months. It'll match or better the Cerbera for Sunday blasts and is a car that won't fill me with dread at the prospect of taking it anywhere longer distance.

To be fair to the Cerbera you are comparing a new car to one designed in the mid 90s,