Discussion
350Matt said:
OK
so a new TVR would be exempt from having it
but would we as TVR enthusiasts want ABS and VCS?
If there was an on/off switch for each on the dash, then why not? For those journeys where you start out like today in glorious sunshine, and the heavens open whilst you are en route.....so a new TVR would be exempt from having it
but would we as TVR enthusiasts want ABS and VCS?
Early Chims and Griefs were non-PAS. Most cars from about 1994 onwards have PAS. Ok, some purists prefer the non assisted feel, but most find it a useful addition to the car. I for one would hate to be without it.
In guess in years to come we may reconcile ourselves to the other driving aids. As Top Gear have shown, with many modern high performance cars with a high power to weight ratio, you CAN turn off the traction control.....but for God's sake don't if you want to live. So it will depend to some degree on how powerful the car is and how it is set up I guess?
In guess in years to come we may reconcile ourselves to the other driving aids. As Top Gear have shown, with many modern high performance cars with a high power to weight ratio, you CAN turn off the traction control.....but for God's sake don't if you want to live. So it will depend to some degree on how powerful the car is and how it is set up I guess?
chris watton said:
I personally cannot see what's wrong with having ABS and electronic TC as an option.
Agreed but wasn't the TVR charm no compromise? I understand now it's new and the lack of TCS and gizmos I supposed kept costs down. In those days it still kept TVRs on the same speed as the others round track (not only outright pace) tech has jumped so much now without the features said, perhaps it would no longer be a serious competitor?Just a thought! Personally I for one wouldn't go near Doms 5 litre without it lol!
In saying all that the Pagani Huayra doesn't have it and they really know how to make a motor so either way!
350Matt said:
OK
so a new TVR would be exempt from having it
but would we as TVR enthusiasts want ABS and VCS?
I think the important question is whether the target market wants it in order to part with their money. so a new TVR would be exempt from having it
but would we as TVR enthusiasts want ABS and VCS?
Current TVR enthusiasts are a double edged sword. There will be plenty of them who will b
h about any product for any reason. There will be plenty who aren't potential customers. The tight rope TVR must negotiate is in building a car that the target buyer will buy while recognising that the target buyer isn't essentially a TVR enthusiast but that the brand enthusiasts must be kept in side.
For starters, when a new model is ready they should run an open day where entry is only for those who arrive in a TVR and they lay on dirty burgers and beers while explaining in person what the product is and what the plan is.
Oh, I thought that to attract existing TVR owners it a)has to look wacky and polish up nicely (90%) and b) modify well and drive excitingly (10%).
Or are the 640 who turned up at Burleigh and the 45 who turned up for the TVRCC track day not representative? Admittedly, a few turned up to both.....and many turned up to neither, but you get my drift.
Or are the 640 who turned up at Burleigh and the 45 who turned up for the TVRCC track day not representative? Admittedly, a few turned up to both.....and many turned up to neither, but you get my drift.
To survive they need to attract more than the enthusiast, they need to attract people away from other top marques. What we want is irrelevant because we cannot support them. the new cars must have the deiver aids and safety features that are expected from cars of the same ilk. If they dont, i fear the worst.
But Les is not some back street rich wiz kid, and dont be fooled into thinking he is in it for his love of all things British. It will be run as a business and nwill eed to sell alot of cars to break even, the small group of current TVR fans wont even touch the sides.
But Les is not some back street rich wiz kid, and dont be fooled into thinking he is in it for his love of all things British. It will be run as a business and nwill eed to sell alot of cars to break even, the small group of current TVR fans wont even touch the sides.
Milky400 said:
To survive they need to attract more than the enthusiast, they need to attract people away from other top marques. What we want is irrelevant because we cannot support them. the new cars must have the deiver aids and safety features that are expected from cars of the same ilk. If they dont, i fear the worst.
But Les is not some back street rich wiz kid, and dont be fooled into thinking he is in it for his love of all things British. It will be run as a business and nwill eed to sell alot of cars to break even, the small group of current TVR fans wont even touch the sides.
That's why I suggested that perhaps ABS and other safety stuff should at least be on the options list, for those that want it.But Les is not some back street rich wiz kid, and dont be fooled into thinking he is in it for his love of all things British. It will be run as a business and nwill eed to sell alot of cars to break even, the small group of current TVR fans wont even touch the sides.
Indeed, but there are alot of people on here spouting bull st about having no driver aids, and the new car not being the same with all the modern EU rulings etc...
Personally i hope the new cars arnt the same as the old ones, as much as i love my Tuscan, i personally would rather see TVR survive than produce cars that were the same lines as previously built..
THIS IS WHY TVR SANK.......
I promised myself i wouldnt get wound up and contribute to this thread, but guess promises are there to be broken
t about having no driver aids, and the new car not being the same with all the modern EU rulings etc... Personally i hope the new cars arnt the same as the old ones, as much as i love my Tuscan, i personally would rather see TVR survive than produce cars that were the same lines as previously built..
THIS IS WHY TVR SANK.......
I promised myself i wouldnt get wound up and contribute to this thread, but guess promises are there to be broken
Edited by Milky400 on Tuesday 2nd September 14:39
chris watton said:
Milky400 said:
To survive they need to attract more than the enthusiast, they need to attract people away from other top marques. What we want is irrelevant because we cannot support them. the new cars must have the deiver aids and safety features that are expected from cars of the same ilk. If they dont, i fear the worst.
But Les is not some back street rich wiz kid, and dont be fooled into thinking he is in it for his love of all things British. It will be run as a business and nwill eed to sell alot of cars to break even, the small group of current TVR fans wont even touch the sides.
That's why I suggested that perhaps ABS and other safety stuff should at least be on the options list, for those that want it.But Les is not some back street rich wiz kid, and dont be fooled into thinking he is in it for his love of all things British. It will be run as a business and nwill eed to sell alot of cars to break even, the small group of current TVR fans wont even touch the sides.
Perhaps current owners will say it's not like it used to be... but then that's not necessarily a bad thing.
Bearing in mind if I'm to pay £80k for a car and the comp at the same price has all the features that make the power safe and exploitable I know where I'd go as building a new car to the same old spec should cost the same and it definitely wouldn't tempt me out of my cerbera.
I was on a track day yesterday, in all that lovely drizzle. In the dry spells it was fantastic, no traction control or ABS to get in the way. Tyres and brakes hot, I dived back into the pits in a dry spell and took a passenger out (who had been somewhat tiptoeing around in a Chim on standard road tyres) to show him what proper track tyres did to track speeds.
It started to drizzle. It had just started to drizzle, as i was part way around the lap.
Down a steep hill at 80 mph, hard on the (bigger) brakes for a 90 degree left bend (Cadwell Park, Mansfield Bend for those who know it), and with all four wheels locked up we headed straight for the grass beyond the corner.
Ok, I got my foot off the brake, re-braked and got it round the corner on a somewhat wide line, but the point is two-fold:
1. I wouldn't want ABS on a track day, but then I would never take an £80,000 car on a track day. However some people would. I have seen a MacLaren MP4-12C and a Ferrari California on a track day, and plenty of Porsche 911s.
2. That scenario could have been bloody scary on a country road at 60 mph without ABS.
If TVR could make traction control and ABS switch-offable, then to me they would keep the best of both worlds, and i would have them switched on for road driving, and off for the track.
It started to drizzle. It had just started to drizzle, as i was part way around the lap.
Down a steep hill at 80 mph, hard on the (bigger) brakes for a 90 degree left bend (Cadwell Park, Mansfield Bend for those who know it), and with all four wheels locked up we headed straight for the grass beyond the corner.
Ok, I got my foot off the brake, re-braked and got it round the corner on a somewhat wide line, but the point is two-fold:
1. I wouldn't want ABS on a track day, but then I would never take an £80,000 car on a track day. However some people would. I have seen a MacLaren MP4-12C and a Ferrari California on a track day, and plenty of Porsche 911s.
2. That scenario could have been bloody scary on a country road at 60 mph without ABS.
If TVR could make traction control and ABS switch-offable, then to me they would keep the best of both worlds, and i would have them switched on for road driving, and off for the track.
chris watton said:
That's why I suggested that perhaps ABS and other safety stuff should at least be on the options list, for those that want it.
I think that to be commercially viable they would need to be on all cars and the cost of development amortised across all units. Otherwise as options they would probably cost over £100k 
If we look at current builders who shun modern safety stuff that almost all car buyers assume are standRd inclusions then we see specialist, low volume, track day cars or extremely high price super cars.
I think that if TVR want to be in the sub £100k road car bracket they have no choice but to include some of these basics or they will never attract enough new buyers to be sustainable.
At the end of the day, you don't notice ABS unless the s
t has hit the fan and you can turn TC off. So they are irrelevant to real men but as real men are few in number and most have no money then adding basic features that will allow non men to be customers is obvious business sense. It all depends on whether they plan to sell 50 a year or 500. They won't be selling much more than 50 without these standard editions.
These days, for 99% of drivers (including yours truly) ABS will be completely non-intrusive - a far cry from early systems. However, on very powerful cars it seems traction and stability control systems are either very intrusive to the point of the car being more predictable with them switched off, or about as much use as a chocolate fireguard (that's you, Lotus traction control).
Indeed, some front-engined cars (AMG Mercs et al) have become so powerful that they're all but undriveable without electronic interference - that's why I would pledge for restricting power to the amount that can just about be harnessed within the basic configuration of a smallish, lightweight sports car (say, 350-400 horses) so that even if TC is being provided, the car doesn't depend on it and we get to keep the analogue, purist character.
Indeed, some front-engined cars (AMG Mercs et al) have become so powerful that they're all but undriveable without electronic interference - that's why I would pledge for restricting power to the amount that can just about be harnessed within the basic configuration of a smallish, lightweight sports car (say, 350-400 horses) so that even if TC is being provided, the car doesn't depend on it and we get to keep the analogue, purist character.
chris watton said:
Milky400 said:
To survive they need to attract more than the enthusiast, they need to attract people away from other top marques. What we want is irrelevant because we cannot support them. the new cars must have the deiver aids and safety features that are expected from cars of the same ilk. If they dont, i fear the worst.
But Les is not some back street rich wiz kid, and dont be fooled into thinking he is in it for his love of all things British. It will be run as a business and nwill eed to sell alot of cars to break even, the small group of current TVR fans wont even touch the sides.
That's why I suggested that perhaps ABS and other safety stuff should at least be on the options list, for those that want it.But Les is not some back street rich wiz kid, and dont be fooled into thinking he is in it for his love of all things British. It will be run as a business and nwill eed to sell alot of cars to break even, the small group of current TVR fans wont even touch the sides.
ABS however is not an easy addition. It has to be engineered for each specific installation so you can't just buy a system 'off the shelf' and stick it on. It has to be engineered (both hardware and software) and then tested. You're looking at not insignificant costs.
I also think once you start complying with those rules you have to implement others like airbags and they are even more expensive as the same specific engineering is required along with destructive impact tests to make sure the system doesn't activate when it hits the 6" kerb but the wall that is another 10 feet further on!
So while the kerb is a significant but not life threatening event you want the bags to still be active when you hit that wall so that the bags aren't just some partially deflated bladder lying in your lap that won't protect you from anything.
Small volume cars with active aids are expensive not just because of the technology but the amortised costs of implementing them.
Client of mine has just spent £83k on a new car.
He's very proud of the enormous brakes, grooved and cross drilled, the 4 litre V8 twin turbo chucking out 520 bhp, the sporty seats etc etc. They will make his drive to and from work all the safer.
Frankly, without all the Audi electronic trickery and quattro technology (that allows him to go around a roundabout four times in the time it would take me to go round twice in my Chimaera), he would never keep his 2014 spec RS6 on the road for more than a week.
In line with what DonkeyApple says, bragging rights that they've still got it at 54 are what many drivers in that market want, capability to deal with their inexperience is what they need. Real men couldn't care less what they commute in as long as it does the job reliably and with a modicum of comfort. They have their performance cars for track days and weekends.
He's very proud of the enormous brakes, grooved and cross drilled, the 4 litre V8 twin turbo chucking out 520 bhp, the sporty seats etc etc. They will make his drive to and from work all the safer.
Frankly, without all the Audi electronic trickery and quattro technology (that allows him to go around a roundabout four times in the time it would take me to go round twice in my Chimaera), he would never keep his 2014 spec RS6 on the road for more than a week.
In line with what DonkeyApple says, bragging rights that they've still got it at 54 are what many drivers in that market want, capability to deal with their inexperience is what they need. Real men couldn't care less what they commute in as long as it does the job reliably and with a modicum of comfort. They have their performance cars for track days and weekends.
V8 GRF said:
As mentioned Traction Control is easily implemented vis sensors and the ECU.
ABS however is not an easy addition. It has to be engineered for each specific installation so you can't just buy a system 'off the shelf' and stick it on. It has to be engineered (both hardware and software) and then tested. You're looking at not insignificant costs.
I also think once you start complying with those rules you have to implement others like airbags and they are even more expensive as the same specific engineering is required along with destructive impact tests to make sure the system doesn't activate when it hits the 6" kerb but the wall that is another 10 feet further on!
So while the kerb is a significant but not life threatening event you want the bags to still be active when you hit that wall so that the bags aren't just some partially deflated bladder lying in your lap that won't protect you from anything.
Small volume cars with active aids are expensive not just because of the technology but the amortised costs of implementing them.
But our MGF Trophy 160 (not even close to the same league, I admit) came without ABS, when all other variants did. If fact, the only difference between that and the Tamora regarding aids is a single airbag.ABS however is not an easy addition. It has to be engineered for each specific installation so you can't just buy a system 'off the shelf' and stick it on. It has to be engineered (both hardware and software) and then tested. You're looking at not insignificant costs.
I also think once you start complying with those rules you have to implement others like airbags and they are even more expensive as the same specific engineering is required along with destructive impact tests to make sure the system doesn't activate when it hits the 6" kerb but the wall that is another 10 feet further on!
So while the kerb is a significant but not life threatening event you want the bags to still be active when you hit that wall so that the bags aren't just some partially deflated bladder lying in your lap that won't protect you from anything.
Small volume cars with active aids are expensive not just because of the technology but the amortised costs of implementing them.
I guess that's why I assumed adding ABS wouldn't be such a big deal at the car building stage....(later Trophy 160's did have the option of ABS..)
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