Discussion
900T-R said:
Indeed, some front-engined cars (AMG Mercs et al) have become so powerful that they're all but undriveable without electronic interference - that's why I would pledge for restricting power to the amount that can just about be harnessed within the basic configuration of a smallish, lightweight sports car (say, 350-400 horses) so that even if TC is being provided, the car doesn't depend on it and we get to keep the analogue, purist character.
That, sir, is a very good point. 
chris watton said:
I guess that's why I assumed adding ABS wouldn't be such a big deal at the car building stage...
It isn't really. People are retrofitting E-types with ABS over here FFS (with the blessing of the road autorities). For the Chim and Griff, TVR could just have dipped into the Ford parts bin...ABS calibration for the specific application is a different matter... but not any more involved than any part of a car's dynamic development, just another parameter to complicate things on top of suspension kinematics & geometry, spring and damper rates, compliance of bushings, braking balance, control weights, et cetera...
DonkeyApple said:
I think that to be commercially viable they would need to be on all cars and the cost of development amortised across all units. Otherwise as options they would probably cost over £100k 
Yes, on the options list is a non starter. Jensen is the earliest example I can remember to fall foul of this developing the FF but keeping the Interceptor; for that size of business they should have made it the Interceptor FF and only have one model.TA14 said:
DonkeyApple said:
I think that to be commercially viable they would need to be on all cars and the cost of development amortised across all units. Otherwise as options they would probably cost over £100k
Yes, on the options list is a non starter. Jensen is the earliest example I can remember to fall foul of this developing the FF but keeping the Interceptor; for that size of business they should have made it the Interceptor FF and only have one model.
900T-R said:
chris watton said:
I guess that's why I assumed adding ABS wouldn't be such a big deal at the car building stage...
It isn't really. People are retrofitting E-types with ABS over here FFS (with the blessing of the road autorities). For the Chim and Griff, TVR could just have dipped into the Ford parts bin...ABS calibration for the specific application is a different matter... but not any more involved than any part of a car's dynamic development, just another parameter to complicate things on top of suspension kinematics & geometry, spring and damper rates, compliance of bushings, braking balance, control weights, et cetera...
Why TVR didn't do it in the first place is a different matter because Wheeler didn't want to spend any more than was necessary and as we all know on most occasions he didn't even want to spend what was required to do the job properly.
V8 GRF said:
Doing retro fitting as one offs or in small numbers is completely different to series construction.
We're talking small numbers really, aren't we? You'd not be talking to Bosch' OEM engineering section, more likely to their 'motorsport' division like other low volume sports car manufacturers...After 35 years, ABS calibration really isn't a black art anymore, low volume manuifacturers far smaller have dealt with it and not gone bankrupt through the cost implications... That aside, I'm all for keeping things as simple and straightofrward as possible and spending the resources on refining the dynamic package.
900T-R said:
V8 GRF said:
Doing retro fitting as one offs or in small numbers is completely different to series construction.
We're talking small numbers really, aren't we? You'd not be talking to Bosch' OEM engineering section, more likely to their 'motorsport' division like other low volume sports car manufacturers...After 35 years, ABS calibration really isn't a black art anymore, low volume manuifacturers far smaller have dealt with it and not gone bankrupt through the cost implications... That aside, I'm all for keeping things as simple and straightofrward as possible and spending the resources on refining the dynamic package.
I'm not suggesting that it would bankrupt a company but it all adds to the development cost and amortising that to a small number of cars would significantly increase the final sale price.
I still think an analogue car is the way forward and it doesn't seen to have harmed the Noble M600
V8 GRF said:
900T-R said:
V8 GRF said:
Doing retro fitting as one offs or in small numbers is completely different to series construction.
We're talking small numbers really, aren't we? You'd not be talking to Bosch' OEM engineering section, more likely to their 'motorsport' division like other low volume sports car manufacturers...After 35 years, ABS calibration really isn't a black art anymore, low volume manuifacturers far smaller have dealt with it and not gone bankrupt through the cost implications... That aside, I'm all for keeping things as simple and straightofrward as possible and spending the resources on refining the dynamic package.
I'm not suggesting that it would bankrupt a company but it all adds to the development cost and amortising that to a small number of cars would significantly increase the final sale price.
I still think an analogue car is the way forward and it doesn't seen to have harmed the Noble M600
If so was it part of the bundle from BMW?
V8 GRF said:
DonkeyApple said:
What kit do Morgan have? I thought ABS and TC and possibly airbags?
If so was it part of the bundle from BMW?
It is BMW tech and they had assistance. I've mentioned previously because a couple of BMW board members are Morgan fans....If so was it part of the bundle from BMW?
But does it show that a drivetrain deal could include TC and ABS with the costs amortised with the supplier this saving a manufacturer from a hideous up front spend?
I can't imagine Morgan had the money spare to pay up front and then recoup via product sales but I just don't know.
I do think that Tivs will need some of this kit so as to attract non diehard brand customers.
V8 GRF said:
I'd agree in principle, but the reality is they insist that for you to buy and install OEM equipment you engineer the solution with their technical staff and they don't come cheap.
I'm not suggesting that it would bankrupt a company but it all adds to the development cost and amortising that to a small number of cars would significantly increase the final sale price.
I still think an analogue car is the way forward and it doesn't seen to have harmed the Noble M600
The Noble M600 is 250k and they have approximately 15 staff..I'm not suggesting that it would bankrupt a company but it all adds to the development cost and amortising that to a small number of cars would significantly increase the final sale price.
I still think an analogue car is the way forward and it doesn't seen to have harmed the Noble M600
V8 GRF said:
I still think an analogue car is the way forward
For me - yes. For the market - well, theEvo staff already complained about the lack of ABS 'resulting' in them headbutting a stone wall in a Tuscan fourteen years ago at ECOTY 2000...I think the reality for a car that's not an out and out track refugee or expensive enough that mere mortals wouldn't get a sniff at it, is that ABS and some sort of traction control (see Lotus) would be considered the bare minimum, and already mark the car out as pretty hardcore/'analogue' anyway.
As unlike Caterfields and early Elises, TVRs are not light enough to do without a brake servo anyway, you could argue adding ABS would not significantly corrupt the braking feel as it wasn't that pure to begin with...
900T-R said:
V8 GRF said:
I still think an analogue car is the way forward
For me - yes. For the market - well, theEvo staff already complained about the lack of ABS 'resulting' in them headbutting a stone wall in a Tuscan fourteen years ago at ECOTY 2000...I think the reality for a car that's not an out and out track refugee or expensive enough that mere mortals wouldn't get a sniff at it, is that ABS and some sort of traction control (see Lotus) would be considered the bare minimum, and already mark the car out as pretty hardcore/'analogue' anyway.
As unlike Caterfields and early Elises, TVRs are not light enough to do without a brake servo anyway, you could argue adding ABS would not significantly corrupt the braking feel as it wasn't that pure to begin with...
What would put a cat among the pigeons well and truly would be if they installed the ZF8 box into the car!!! I think we have to admit that commercially fitting the car with the auto trans would be one of the most effective ways to achieve higher sales. We might find the idea abhorrent but I very much suspect that if TVR were still trading and offered a 6 speed manual or an 8 speed auto that the latter would be selling in the higher number.
900T-R said:
TVRs are not light enough to do without a brake servo anyway, you could argue adding ABS would not significantly corrupt the braking feel as it wasn't that pure to begin with...
Mine doesn't have a brake servo But on the topic of New TVR spec, having driven a new Corvette Stingray all last week, I'd have to say this thing is so TVRish in so many ways but raises the bar so high...I just can't see how a small manufacturer could compete at anything like the same price-point. Just ship in a shed-load of C7s, stick the steering wheel on the right and a TVR badge on the front and job done...
tvrolet said:
Mine doesn't have a brake servo
But on the topic of New TVR spec, having driven a new Corvette Stingray all last week, I'd have to say this thing is so TVRish in so many ways but raises the bar so high...I just can't see how a small manufacturer could compete at anything like the same price-point. Just ship in a shed-load of C7s, stick the steering wheel on the right and a TVR badge on the front and job done...
V8 GRF said:But on the topic of New TVR spec, having driven a new Corvette Stingray all last week, I'd have to say this thing is so TVRish in so many ways but raises the bar so high...I just can't see how a small manufacturer could compete at anything like the same price-point. Just ship in a shed-load of C7s, stick the steering wheel on the right and a TVR badge on the front and job done...
Good points made but the real reason Morgan and Lotus are still in business is because Morgan have access to BMW technology and engines because of an interest in their cars by key member of the BMW board. Lotus are still around not through selling cars but probably cash from their consultancy and a not insignificant amount of funding from their Far Eastern owners.
I doubt that TVR can afford the costs associated with BMW, Audi or Volvo engines and be a viable company. You can't just buy a crate BMW engine for example as they require input into it's implementation so as not to damage their brand image, that's probably why manufacturers who do have their engines always have eye wateringly high prices to support those costs.
Barnfind
Take the Corvette engine and possibly the chassis and make it their own and sell upgrade packages back to the yanks whilst having full factory support from Chevrolet and possibly sell TVR's through some of the network in the US
BarnFind said:
I doubt that TVR can afford the costs associated with BMW, Audi or Volvo engines and be a viable company.
Depends on your intentions and contacts, really. Donkervoort makes 30-50 cars a year with full Audi support, same thing for KTM who don't make a huge number of X-Bows either, Wiesmann did 2-300 per annum and had pretty much full access to the BMW Meccano box and then there's Morgan of course. If there's a board member or two who's enthusiastic about your product and you're not too bloody minded to take some good advice and have your product tested in the big OEM's facilities so that they won't lend their name to a shoddy outfit, it doesn't matter if you're taking 10 or 10,000 engines/drivetrains.
Good as the Corvette bits are, they are really more suited to an altogether larger car designed for wide open spaces rather than your average UK country road, and I would think doing business with the most cynically operated car company in the universe would be more than a bit frustrating.
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