New TVR spec

[jamieduff1981]

WolfyJones said:

jamieduff1981 said:

I have that gearbox in the same setup as the F-Type in this car at home:



This car wouldn't see which way the one above went on a spirited drive:



When people bash cars like the F-Type I find myself wondering why I'm actually keeping the Cerbera. I'm seriously considering buying an F-Type. Infact I'll have to restrain myself. The XF is going back to the dealer for a little warranty thing in 2 weeks and I'm getting a V8S as my courtesy car. It's going to make me do some soul searching.

The XF above is better than the Cerbera in every measurable way. It doesn't go out of tune all the time. The heating and cooling systems actually do something useful. The handling is extremely playful yet safe and predictable - confidence inspiring actually whereas the TVR is st frankly. The XF is easily the faster car point to point. The F-Type is quicker still. The slushbox auto is a wonderful feat of engineering in that it lets the car be driven smoothly with seemless gearchanges yet offers near instantaneous up changes and rev-matched downchanges on command via the paddles letting me keep my hands on the wheel. Compare that to the crappy Borg Warner T5 that craps itself when 5th gear gets too much torque reversal, a naff clutch that lasts 30,000 miles and costs £900 for the parts and an equally crap slave cylinder, combined with one of the worst pedal boxes I've ever used with pedal spacings completely unsuitable for heel-toe gearshifts and an absurdly long pedal travel on the clutch that necessitates lifting your foot off the floor to find the pedal. It's pants. The first time you get stuck in traffic in a Cerbera you're sat in a sauna with hot carpets and an aching left knee and ankle shunting along with a handbrake that can't hold the car, hacked off and just wanting to get out and walk.

The TVR is good fun for a blast but is awful for everything else. I'd like to do some of the Alpine passes in the TVR but would be completely unwilling to put up with the car for the drive there and back - it's not even close to pleasant to be in.

The only thing it's better at than our family car above is that it looks sexier. Looks are subjective but I think the F-Type beats the Cerbera on that too. Why should I keep the Cerbera? The only reason I can think of is that I make a lot of money and the Cerbera isn't worth that much to sell so I might as well hang on to it.

I'm going to have to work very hard not to buy a slushbox F-Type in the next 12 months. It'll match or better the Cerbera for Sunday blasts and is a car that won't fill me with dread at the prospect of taking it anywhere longer distance.

To be fair to the Cerbera you are comparing a new car to one designed in the mid 90s,

Absolutely correct, but what do we define as progress and what do we not? I find pulling the choke knob out to start the engine on my Midget quite charming but few miss manual chokes nowadays.

People moan about the weight of new cars but that's bks IMHO because a) the actual weight doesn't tell you anything about how it feels to drive and b) nobody is asking you to pick the car up and carry it.

The much lamented manual gearbox and clutch pedal - where do they sit? For people who have driven an automatic Honda Jazz they are an essential part of sports cars. For people who have used the Porsche PDK or the ZF Quickshift they belong in classic cars along with manual chokes.

TVR used to be appealing because they were faster than everything else. They can't play that game now - the latest generation of cars have taken outright performance way beyond the realms of a biggish engine and a decent LSD. Frankly, a manual gearbox would hamstring any new sportscar in the performance stakes because it's the acceleration figures that get 99% of potential customers interested in the first place.

That kinda means any new sports car has to just look good, sound good and be playful - which is what the F-Type appears to do rather well for the same price point as we're talking here. For your £80k it also can be driven in a traffic jam without making its driver want to get out and punch someone and has things like cruise control that take the chore out of long drives. There is a lot of romance attached to long drives in a sports car, but I'm not very good at lying to myself. It's not romantic - it's tedious.

The trouble with a slower sports car that seems fast is that few are captured by the headlines (see Toyota GT86) and those who are realise that in real life they're being overtaken by a diesel hatchback that will pull in front and brake to an utterly uninteresting speed (forcing you to also) for each corner whilst pulling away from you on the straights. You'll be sat there stirring your manual gearbox having your fun ruined by a middle aged woman unaware you're even there.

[900T-R]

WolfyJones said:

To be fair to the Cerbera you are comparing a new car to one designed in the mid 90s,

And with the final 5-10 percent of development left to the customer because TVRs main UK customer base was unwilling to pick up the tab for it to be done by the factory.

[WolfyJones]

jamieduff1981 said:

Absolutely correct, but what do we define as progress and what do we not? I find pulling the choke knob out to start the engine on my Midget quite charming but few miss manual chokes nowadays.

People moan about the weight of new cars but that's bks IMHO because a) the actual weight doesn't tell you anything about how it feels to drive and b) nobody is asking you to pick the car up and carry it.

The much lamented manual gearbox and clutch pedal - where do they sit? For people who have driven an automatic Honda Jazz they are an essential part of sports cars. For people who have used the Porsche PDK or the ZF Quickshift they belong in classic cars along with manual chokes.

TVR used to be appealing because they were faster than everything else. They can't play that game now - the latest generation of cars have taken outright performance way beyond the realms of a biggish engine and a decent LSD. Frankly, a manual gearbox would hamstring any new sportscar in the performance stakes because it's the acceleration figures that get 99% of potential customers interested in the first place.

That kinda means any new sports car has to just look good, sound good and be playful - which is what the F-Type appears to do rather well for the same price point as we're talking here. For your £80k it also can be driven in a traffic jam without making its driver want to get out and punch someone and has things like cruise control that take the chore out of long drives. There is a lot of romance attached to long drives in a sports car, but I'm not very good at lying to myself. It's not romantic - it's tedious.

The trouble with a slower sports car that seems fast is that few are captured by the headlines (see Toyota GT86) and those who are realise that in real life they're being overtaken by a diesel hatchback that will pull in front and brake to an utterly uninteresting speed (forcing you to also) for each corner whilst pulling away from you on the straights. You'll be sat there stirring your manual gearbox having your fun ruined by a middle aged woman unaware you're even there.

Enjoying your posts but have to disagree,

Have driven the F type and Aston V8V and they are great everyday cars but lack that special buzz lightweight cars without toys give you, early Sunday morning I would take the lightweight every time and for everyday you can't beat a RR,

[BarnFind]

The XF above is better than the Cerbera in every measurable way.

Err,how many years is now between the two models being manufactured,about 18 years,one would have hoped technology would have moved on a tad..................even if we are talking about two completely different manufacturers,large and low volume, producing two completey cars....

Edited by BarnFind on Monday 28th July 17:50

[TA14]

V8 GRF said:

Bonded composites, extrusions, alloy panels etc

Similar theory to the Morgan Aero chassis.

Yes, I guess that this is the way to go on the basis that a 4C type tub would be too expensive to set up. What's the cost of an aero type chassis though? On the one hand, IIRC the Aero is about twice the price of the other morgans but on the other hand Lotus produce the Elise/Exige at a competative price.

[DonkeyApple]

jamieduff1981 said:

Absolutely correct, but what do we define as progress and what do we not? I find pulling the choke knob out to start the engine on my Midget quite charming but few miss manual chokes nowadays.

People moan about the weight of new cars but that's bks IMHO because a) the actual weight doesn't tell you anything about how it feels to drive and b) nobody is asking you to pick the car up and carry it.

The much lamented manual gearbox and clutch pedal - where do they sit? For people who have driven an automatic Honda Jazz they are an essential part of sports cars. For people who have used the Porsche PDK or the ZF Quickshift they belong in classic cars along with manual chokes.

TVR used to be appealing because they were faster than everything else. They can't play that game now - the latest generation of cars have taken outright performance way beyond the realms of a biggish engine and a decent LSD. Frankly, a manual gearbox would hamstring any new sportscar in the performance stakes because it's the acceleration figures that get 99% of potential customers interested in the first place.

That kinda means any new sports car has to just look good, sound good and be playful - which is what the F-Type appears to do rather well for the same price point as we're talking here. For your £80k it also can be driven in a traffic jam without making its driver want to get out and punch someone and has things like cruise control that take the chore out of long drives. There is a lot of romance attached to long drives in a sports car, but I'm not very good at lying to myself. It's not romantic - it's tedious.

The trouble with a slower sports car that seems fast is that few are captured by the headlines (see Toyota GT86) and those who are realise that in real life they're being overtaken by a diesel hatchback that will pull in front and brake to an utterly uninteresting speed (forcing you to also) for each corner whilst pulling away from you on the straights. You'll be sat there stirring your manual gearbox having your fun ruined by a middle aged woman unaware you're even there.

I think that you are spot on that Tiv can't return at an affordable level and be a massive performance beater, which s why I would think that the nostalgia market is where it is at in terms of commercial sales. No point in giving a product fancy new, modern looks if it doesn't do everything for the driver including massaging their piles and keeping their sweaty backside chilled along with doing most of the driving for them. Give it a nostalgic look and feel and you instantly bypass the need for all the gizmos that would make it way more expensive to build than the mass produced competition.

[jamieduff1981]

DonkeyApple said:

jamieduff1981 said:

Absolutely correct, but what do we define as progress and what do we not? I find pulling the choke knob out to start the engine on my Midget quite charming but few miss manual chokes nowadays.

People moan about the weight of new cars but that's bks IMHO because a) the actual weight doesn't tell you anything about how it feels to drive and b) nobody is asking you to pick the car up and carry it.

The much lamented manual gearbox and clutch pedal - where do they sit? For people who have driven an automatic Honda Jazz they are an essential part of sports cars. For people who have used the Porsche PDK or the ZF Quickshift they belong in classic cars along with manual chokes.

TVR used to be appealing because they were faster than everything else. They can't play that game now - the latest generation of cars have taken outright performance way beyond the realms of a biggish engine and a decent LSD. Frankly, a manual gearbox would hamstring any new sportscar in the performance stakes because it's the acceleration figures that get 99% of potential customers interested in the first place.

That kinda means any new sports car has to just look good, sound good and be playful - which is what the F-Type appears to do rather well for the same price point as we're talking here. For your £80k it also can be driven in a traffic jam without making its driver want to get out and punch someone and has things like cruise control that take the chore out of long drives. There is a lot of romance attached to long drives in a sports car, but I'm not very good at lying to myself. It's not romantic - it's tedious.

The trouble with a slower sports car that seems fast is that few are captured by the headlines (see Toyota GT86) and those who are realise that in real life they're being overtaken by a diesel hatchback that will pull in front and brake to an utterly uninteresting speed (forcing you to also) for each corner whilst pulling away from you on the straights. You'll be sat there stirring your manual gearbox having your fun ruined by a middle aged woman unaware you're even there.

I think that you are spot on that Tiv can't return at an affordable level and be a massive performance beater, which s why I would think that the nostalgia market is where it is at in terms of commercial sales. No point in giving a product fancy new, modern looks if it doesn't do everything for the driver including massaging their piles and keeping their sweaty backside chilled along with doing most of the driving for them. Give it a nostalgic look and feel and you instantly bypass the need for all the gizmos that would make it way more expensive to build than the mass produced competition.

Which really means the next TVR needs to be the spiritual successor to the Griffith 4.3 more than an LS engined Sagaris.

To those pointing out I'm comparing new with old - that isn't lost on me - trust me. What seems to be lost on those pointing it out however is that the whole world has moved on since the days when you could make a relevant performance car by plonking a big engine in a tubular chassis and calling it done. It's not even so much the level of automation, but all the tertiary systems such as automatic climate control that people expect nowadays. If you want to be exposed to the elements you buy a Caterham or one of the mid-engined loony cars like a Radical or X-Bow. If you want a GTish interior like TVRs had then you expect sat nav and climate control in such a car.

Technology has moved on in handling terms too, but that really means adaptive damping to blend ride quality with handling and automatic gearboxes to blend city convenience with fast drive effectiveness.

Where exactly one draws the line with new technology is hard to say. I'd hazard a guess that many here can't actually spend the £80k on the new TVR. In the cold light of day few would actually sign on the dotted line for a car which cost the same as an F-Type, Vantage, 911 or R8 even on a car which performed almost as well but with none of the convenience and a much reduced resale market just for the sake of getting a slightly more raw feeling. That feeling for the vast majority is called fear.

Ultimately TVR would need to break in to a very competitive market with some very compelling machinery already there which offers 95% of the thrills but 500% more creature comforts.

Or they just bring back wooden dashboards and 60s looks and compete with Morgan for the money of bearded eccentrics. I think they'd struggle for a clear identity if they did anything other than affordable performance - although competing with the performance at that price point will be a stiff challenge because the vast majority will consider those highly developed cars to be better rounded packages to spend their £80,000 on.

[macdeb]

RE; the Jag/Cerb' thing.
I'd rather be seen in the Cerbera than the Jag shown, I mean look at them!
The new car just HAS to look like a TVR at the very least.

[jamieduff1981]

macdeb said:

RE; the Jag/Cerb' thing.
I'd rather be seen in the Cerbera than the Jag shown, I mean look at them!
The new car just HAS to look like a TVR at the very least.

Meaning?

[Don1]

jamieduff1981 said:

macdeb said:

RE; the Jag/Cerb' thing.
I'd rather be seen in the Cerbera than the Jag shown, I mean look at them!
The new car just HAS to look like a TVR at the very least.

Meaning?

He is making a differentiation between the Jaguar and the TVR, saying in his opinion, the TVR is much nicer.

He is also of the hope that the new TVR has the same visual DNA of the older models.

(Sorry for paraphrasing).

[HarryW]

jamieduff1981 said:

macdeb said:

RE; the Jag/Cerb' thing.
I'd rather be seen in the Cerbera than the Jag shown, I mean look at them!
The new car just HAS to look like a TVR at the very least.

Meaning?

I think he said the new car has to look like a TVR at the very least........it needs be instantly recognisable, it has to have the DNA. I think.....

[HarryW]

Look at the Cerb again, developed in the early 90's, flat plane in house V8, keyless entry and go, wrap around cockpit, staggering performance and looks for its day when released in the mid 90's. It grabbed the attention, it still does today, it may not be as quick as modern machinery, then again a 250 fezza wasn't as quick as a Cerb. That doesn't make it a bad car, just a special car of its time.

Any successor needs to have similar headlines to grab the attention of new buyers, old farts do not necessarily need convincing, new buyers do and to do that it has to be special and stand out in some way. Be that in looks, a Tvr DNA, or in performance is what the new owner will be looking to do. I suspect looks will be more achievable on a finite budget.

[jamieduff1981]

HarryW said:

Look at the Cerb again, developed in the early 90's, flat plane in house V8, keyless entry and go, wrap around cockpit, staggering performance and looks for its day when released in the mid 90's. It grabbed the attention, it still does today, it may not be as quick as modern machinery, then again a 250 fezza wasn't as quick as a Cerb. That doesn't make it a bad car, just a special car of its time.

Any successor needs to have similar headlines to grab the attention of new buyers, old farts do not necessarily need convincing, new buyers do and to do that it has to be special and stand out in some way. Be that in looks, a Tvr DNA, or in performance is what the new owner will be looking to do. I suspect looks will be more achievable on a finite budget.

I agree - particularly on looks being most achievable. It's still easy to build a strong performer with basic technology. Modern design tools and technology can take the edge off sportscar ride harshness whilst improving it's manners on the road. You'll get an old school feel that way. In absolute terms it'll still be a lot of fun and a nice car to have in the collection.

That doesn't change the fact that there is some staggeringly good competition about which also ticks a few more 'easy to live with points'.

One thing I will say in defence of the TVR is that boot space was always good. Probably the only thing that could sway me away from a V8S F-Type and in to a new TVR instead (given the reliability of the former and strength of the parent company for warranty work etc) would be if it had a boot big enough to get enough stuff in for a weekend away for the wife and I without the kids. The F-Type boot is useless.

Les - if you're reading - climate control and a decent sized boot please. Even MX-5 sized boot space is enough - but F-Type sized isn't.

[C15]

Surely the question is, who does TVR want to sell cars to?
Enthusiasts, or just the geezer who wants a car that looks unique..?

Enthusiasts will always moan about something or other, but will put up with it, and improve upon it. The geezer down the road expects everything to be perfect, or at least a good dealer network to get it fixed.

As for the spec... I know after 6 TVR's there is nothing I'd want to change...

Noise which increases dependent on the loud pedal, grunt which pushes you into the seat, handling which scares the sh#t out of me when I am being stupid...

I don't need toys, or driver aids, and definitely no aircon... Takes too much power from the engine, and adds too much weight, the same with PAS.. I want an engine in the front/middle drive to the back and 2 comfy sports seats, wrapped up in a good looking shell, and a top that comes off...

Thank you very glad...

[jamieduff1981]

Which is fine and will appeal to many people when it has depreciated to the point where you just spend £10-20k on one as a toy. Absolutely nobody is going to hand over £80k for that though. People struggled to hand over £40-50k for that 10 years ago when there weren't many excellent bonafide sportscars already on the market for the same money with equal performance, good looks, sound but also finance packages, warranties, dealer networks and little touches which makes the car more likely to be driven to work on a cold wet day.

As for a/c sapping too much power and adding weight - please. It saps power from a 1.0litre hatchback but is unnoticeable on a 3.0 litre barge - and even ancient systems declutch when high power is demanded by the driver. Total system weight is less than the variance in TVR body tubs.

[900T-R]

jamieduff1981 said:

TVR used to be appealing because they were faster than everything else. They can't play that game now - the latest generation of cars have taken outright performance way beyond the realms of a biggish engine and a decent LSD. Frankly, a manual gearbox would hamstring any new sportscar in the performance stakes because it's the acceleration figures that get 99% of potential customers interested in the first place.

Newsflash - if you are a small time manufacturer, the best thing you can hope for is for that 99% to walk past your door. You cannot by a stretch of the imagination cater for them, you don't have the means, if the stereotypical geezer with a bit of cash who just wants a flash car to impress their mates happens to put thier bum into your car you know they are going to be trouble, either by eliminating themselves from the gene pool and reaching the tabloids for doing so or by endless moaning about their car not being as slick to operate as a Lexus. FFS, if the remaining one percent of the market came to your doorstep you'd freak out because you can only realistically put out a couple of hundred cars....

Marketing is as much defining who is not your customer as defining who is.

Personally, I have driven pretty much every 'normal' car on the market for 12 years or so\ and still do a fairly huge annual mileage (40-50K), nearly 10K of them in a Chimaera. While an interior built out of nice looking and feeling materials is a HUGE feelgood factor for me, all the toys don't do anything for me, they detract from the focus on driving and seldom if ever add convenience. Traffic rarely if ever lets me use the cruise control, even the adaptive ones are as useful as a chocolate fireguard because they don't anticipate on the 10,000 w**kers who will pull out on you because you're leaving a gap more than 3 car lengths, climate control systems tend to require as much fiddling if not more than three round knobs with an A/C switch, et cetera. To me, the stress factor of technology kit is often higher than the convenience, I just want to get in and drive. Looking around, a lot of people tend to be like me and they're mostly the more enthusiast drivers with specialist cars.

Furthermore I associate lots of knobs and buttons with the low/mid market offerings, a high end audio system tends to have far less of them than a £500 Marantz offering - in fact, nearly all high end/designer/bespoke consumer items tend to be minimalist and made from nicer, more 'natural' materials than mass market stuff. I'm afraid that next to say a Mk 1 Tuscan, an F-type looks or a 991 and feels rather low rent and mass market to me.

Functionally, a new TVR needs to work properly, there's no disputing that. But a) that applied to 'old TVR' just the same and the fact they often didn't was the major factor in their downfall and b) there's no reason at all your Cerbera shouldn't. It's merely a question of lavishing the attention to detail to it that the good folks at Bristol Avenue and TVR dealers in general lacked.

[jamieduff1981]

Ultimately, when I could spend under £20k on a Chimaera next month if I felt like it that looks better than the day it left the factory inside, out and underneath what is the sell in spending £80k on the same thing with a new number plate?

[DonkeyApple]

C15 said:

Surely the question is, who does TVR want to sell cars to?
Enthusiasts, or just the geezer who wants a car that looks unique?..

Ultimately that is the only important question.

In order to sell a product, before you build it you must isolate who your target customer is and what is the product that they want.

The reason most UK small car businesses fail is because they have not done this and then the other problem they have is that the British don't get marketing. These firms scrape together the money to build the car but never have the money to sell the car.

TVR seems to have two massive advantages.

Firstly, it is a known brand. The press will clamour over announcements and events will invite the product. They have a huge advantage in terms of marketing so just need to ensure they have the money reserves to trade at a loss for several years while the volumes grow.

Secondly, and this from a core objective is a bad thing but I think in reality a very good thing and that is that TVR has no relevant overseas market. There won't be integral demand from key markets such as China, Russia, the ME etc. that means they don't have to compromise in design. You only have to look at cars like Ferraris to see that they have gone from sleek, stylish, Italian design to much more clumsy shapes as they have had to build with the size, shape and crass desires of their consumers. TVRs key market is England. The product will be built to appeal to a segment of the English market.

So, which group of English people have the money and desire for such a product.

Well, there are two core spending groups in the UK. The first is inner city money who tend to look for more status products and then there are the OAPs who er more towards the nostalgia end of the market.

There are plenty of smaller markets but it's obviously higher risk. There is the sector that I am in, 40 something professional but they tend to be bogged down with mortgages, school fees and with less time to enjoy toys.

So, if the two biggest markets are a flash product for the urban money or a nostalgia product for the 55+ market you have two very different products for each. One has to be seen to be able to compete against the leading modern sports car brands and the other has to be able to compete against other nostalgia and classic products.

The latter product has the largest potential client demographic and is the cheapest to build. And that's why my random guess is that it will look and feel more like a DB5 than a DB9.

[900T-R]

To do a Chimaera properly IME costs a tad more than £20K - a full Speed Eight Chimaera will probably start at 45K euro, I wouldn't make a margin on it that you'd get out of bed for...

Given that it will only have to comply with low volume type approval standards, there's no reason why it would have to be diluted or dumbed down in any significant way, but looking at the advancement of the low volume/specialist competition I would expect better structural stiffness (yielding benefits both in terms of dynamics and 'basic' refinement) and side impact/rollover protection as a given. I'd also expect that price level to incoroporate better component quality in the areas that most of us have been tending to in our cars, i.e. cooling and suspension. Things like active differentials and adaptive suspension (which needn't be a computer based solution in se - drive a car with Intrax' Anti Roll Control and you'll discover it's every bit as good as Tenneco's system which is on McLarens and Volvos) wouldn't be out of the question either.

Thing is, the folks that bought a Sagaris or Tuscan S Mk 3 at £50-55K back in 2005 can't really complain financially, same can be said about any of the Morgan Aero 8 derivatives, while buying a brand new F-type or non-specialist 911 or any other 'mass produced' sports/GT car results in immediate loss of shirt to the tune of £30K in the first year... That's why the cars you mention would never, ever be an option for me - too many bespoke/classic options out there that will gain value long-term.

[V8 GRF]

TA14 said:

Yes, I guess that this is the way to go on the basis that a 4C type tub would be too expensive to set up. What's the cost of an aero type chassis though? On the one hand, IIRC the Aero is about twice the price of the other morgans but on the other hand Lotus produce the Elise/Exige at a competative price.

I don't think the chassis has that great an input into the final price as a percentage of the Morgan. The Lotus chassis is quite a 'production line' product and uses bespoke parts that I assume fit together well, so I assume they have(had) some scales of economy. The Morgan chassis looks to be more from 'off the shelf' alloy stock so possibly takes more time to prepare and jig, as well as being made in smaller numbers I'd guess? It's also produced by a third party and delivered in.