Discussion
DonkeyApple said:
m4tti said:
Although a golf R does a 1:29 ish lap round the top gear test track, and a Tuscan or Sagaris 1:24..... and that's before they've had any sort of uprated rebuild.
Doesn't matter. On the road, most drivers do not have the skill to eek out the last bit of performance and so the car with the electronics will be faster. 
TA14 said:
DonkeyApple said:
m4tti said:
Although a golf R does a 1:29 ish lap round the top gear test track, and a Tuscan or Sagaris 1:24..... and that's before they've had any sort of uprated rebuild.
Doesn't matter. On the road, most drivers do not have the skill to eek out the last bit of performance and so the car with the electronics will be faster. We also know how many Tivs with much less power than we are discussing in this thread have been crashed due to a lack of experience or just plain getting caught out. A decade on from the last TIV and the world we live in now is even less forgiving of cars that don't donall the work, flatter the owner, start every time and have electric everything because for some reason a modern adult is completely unable to even move a seat themselves.
To avoid the comparison with generic, robot built utility vehicles they do need to be clever and most similar firms either go ultra top end or retro in order to achieve that.
I still think that people wanting a cheap, Mondeo priced car that will be faster than a Porsche but still have a classy interior etc etc are sadly dreaming of days long gone.
DonkeyApple said:
That's exactly right. It's a fudged stat but one that is hugely important in top trumps marketing but we all know that you have wring the neck of a standard Tiv and you still won't be getting away from Baz in his 135 who's also smoking and on the phone.
We also know how many Tivs with much less power than we are discussing in this thread have been crashed due to a lack of experience or just plain getting caught out. A decade on from the last TIV and the world we live in now is even less forgiving of cars that don't donall the work, flatter the owner, start every time and have electric everything because for some reason a modern adult is completely unable to even move a seat themselves.
Au contraire - the ones that will insist on driving their own cars in the future will have time to re-think their attitude to speed vs. effort/involvement when they are banned from Her Majesty's roads for the second or third time for going what was from their perspective not even that quickly. Time has been running out for the 'just a bl**dy fast point to point car' for awhile now - despite manufacturers cranking them out left, right and centre. We also know how many Tivs with much less power than we are discussing in this thread have been crashed due to a lack of experience or just plain getting caught out. A decade on from the last TIV and the world we live in now is even less forgiving of cars that don't donall the work, flatter the owner, start every time and have electric everything because for some reason a modern adult is completely unable to even move a seat themselves.
DonkeyApple said:
Doesn't matter. On the road, most drivers do not have the skill to eek out the last bit of performance and so the car with the electronics will be faster.
Besides, when we look back at the days of the Griff there simply wasn't any basic car that could stick to the back of it in the early 90s. That was the size of the performance differential. Today, there isn't that differential and in most cases it's reversed.
Building a reliable and safe 500bhp TVR means everything in the drivetrain has to be beefed up adding both weight and cost. By sticking at 300 then generic, cheap, off the shelf parts will do the job and the end product becomes an awful lot cheaper.
If people want a new TVR that can outperform modern hatchbacks, have a nice, premium interior and for the product to work then people just have to be prepared to pay an awful lot of money for such a product.
Although the TC on the syvecs will plug my skills gap..Besides, when we look back at the days of the Griff there simply wasn't any basic car that could stick to the back of it in the early 90s. That was the size of the performance differential. Today, there isn't that differential and in most cases it's reversed.
Building a reliable and safe 500bhp TVR means everything in the drivetrain has to be beefed up adding both weight and cost. By sticking at 300 then generic, cheap, off the shelf parts will do the job and the end product becomes an awful lot cheaper.
If people want a new TVR that can outperform modern hatchbacks, have a nice, premium interior and for the product to work then people just have to be prepared to pay an awful lot of money for such a product.
m4tti said:
Although the TC on the syvecs will plug my skills gap..
It's still decades old tech in comparison to what the utility firms are adding to their boxes. There is a side of me that wonders if the most logical thing for TVR is to simply take a modern chassis and drivetrain combo off an existing mass manufacturer as being the most sensible way to get a rolling chassis.
Whatever route they go it's going to be very hard for them. Build the cheap as chips car that enthusiasts seem to want and the cost of a factory and staff large enough to build enough units to try and eek any profit out of the appalling margins is going to be crippling. Do the logical thing and run a large unit price and it sounds like many brand enthusiasts will try and kill it off.
I can easily imagine that TVR Power's Bob Crowe impersonator is already rallying his minions to slag them off after the parts event let alone any cars that don't confirm to his expectations.
DonkeyApple said:
It's still decades old tech in comparison to what the utility firms are adding to their boxes.
There is a side of me that wonders if the most logical thing for TVR is to simply take a modern chassis and drivetrain combo off an existing mass manufacturer as being the most sensible way to get a rolling chassis.
Whatever route they go it's going to be very hard for them. Build the cheap as chips car that enthusiasts seem to want and the cost of a factory and staff large enough to build enough units to try and eek any profit out of the appalling margins is going to be crippling. Do the logical thing and run a large unit price and it sounds like many brand enthusiasts will try and kill it off.
I can easily imagine that TVR Power's Bob Crowe impersonator is already rallying his minions to slag them off after the parts event let alone any cars that don't confirm to his expectations.
I wouldn't say it's decades old tech, you certainly can't easily modify the slip ratios on traction control on production cars easily. And there would be no point in teams at leman running life racing ems, which syvecs is based on if the levels of control required weren't there. Add to that it integrates with CAN systems which weren't around decades ago... So I get the jist of your sentiment although the facts are slightly blurred.There is a side of me that wonders if the most logical thing for TVR is to simply take a modern chassis and drivetrain combo off an existing mass manufacturer as being the most sensible way to get a rolling chassis.
Whatever route they go it's going to be very hard for them. Build the cheap as chips car that enthusiasts seem to want and the cost of a factory and staff large enough to build enough units to try and eek any profit out of the appalling margins is going to be crippling. Do the logical thing and run a large unit price and it sounds like many brand enthusiasts will try and kill it off.
I can easily imagine that TVR Power's Bob Crowe impersonator is already rallying his minions to slag them off after the parts event let alone any cars that don't confirm to his expectations.
Radical have produced a from scratch road car, which demolishes just about everything, but like you mention we're heading into 6 figures.
m4tti said:
I wouldn't say it's decades old tech, you certainly can't easily modify the slip ratios on traction control on production cars easily. And there would be no point in teams at leman running life racing ems, which syvecs is based on if the levels of control required weren't there. Add to that it integrates with CAN systems which weren't around decades ago... So I get the jist of your sentiment although the facts are slightly blurred.
Radical have produced a from scratch road car, which demolishes just about everything, but like you mention we're heading into 6 figures.
The sort of TC that Syvecs can deliver stems from the 90s when early systems just tried to mitigate the severity of events once they had happened. All the modern systems are about that event never happening in the first place. That's the big gulf of a difference. Radical have produced a from scratch road car, which demolishes just about everything, but like you mention we're heading into 6 figures.
Almost anything that isn't a Carerham or Morgan where the production assets have long been paid for and this don't have to be financed and paid down by new sales in the same way as a start up has to, will be expensive. The Radical is expensive because they will only ever sell a few and have to try and recoup their investment and then make a profit etc.
It's why I wonder if the most prudent way forward if you are building a road car and not a track car that can go on the road isn't to go to someone like AM, JLR, Lotus etc and get a sorted rolling chassis with a drivetrain, buy them as you need them so you don't have to build an entire factory just a basic assembly line employing a few people who fit a bespoke body and interior etc.
I just struggle to see the TVR brand commanding the massive price tag that would be needed to justify a scratch build with performance or selling enough units to justify a scratch build at the cheap end. It just seems very tough when we live in a world where unique products either have to be half the price of a 911 or twice the price.
R7EBO said:
I It's pointless comparing to today's hot hatches - not least because of the age gap and advances in technology resulting in more power and efficiency, but they are completely different animals. We as humans are better at almost everything than a Lion for example, but one-on-one it'll still rip your head off!! Forget the Golf R's etc and look more towards the like of Noble or even Weissman. I've been to the Weissman factory and as you would expect from ze Germans it's very clean, very cool and of course very well organised. It's a small, hand-built sports car and they sell for £100k plus!
Last time I looked Weissman had gone bust........Do any small sports car makers really make money? Loads of small rebooted sports car makers come back and disappear over night,Jenson, Marcos etc. Why couldn't TVR go down the route of someone like Noble? Super fast, hand built, rare cars that are respected and sell enough to keep in business with just the one model. When the Speed12 was announced there were more than enough takers, so why not have one model, a true TVR. Is that not the way they were slowly going with models like the Typhon and 440R, build a super car, sell it to the rich who want exclusivity and if the market is there then make a car for the rest of us. If they do come back with an off the shelf engine and chassis and build something for the mass market then it will only be a TVR by name only. They could just call it a LES.
unrepentant said:
Last time I looked Weissman had gone bust........
If that's the case then I stand corrected, but you see the point I'm trying to make. I'm not surprised to be honest because they aren't much of a car for £100k plus and their facility was enormous (and very extravagant!). 
My point was they're not hatch-backs and they're not mass produced, they're limited number hand-built sports cars. It's very possible to make it work and I have not a doubt in my mind that these guys are well aware of the costs and potential pitfalls along the way...
R7EBO said:
unrepentant said:
Last time I looked Weissman had gone bust........
If that's the case then I stand corrected, but you see the point I'm trying to make. I'm not surprised to be honest because they aren't much of a car for £100k plus and their facility was enormous (and very extravagant!). My point was they're not hatch-backs and they're not mass produced, they're limited number hand-built sports cars. It's very possible to make it work and I have not a doubt in my mind that these guys are well aware of the costs and potential pitfalls along the way...
The market has moved on. When TVR went out of business 9 years ago 400 BHP was a lot. Now Ford, Chevy and Chrysler all make cheap cars with way more than that and Jaguar make a car with 550 BHP that is just brilliant and reliable and that comes with a proper warranty.
unrepentant said:
They were all those things. They are out of business.
The market has moved on. When TVR went out of business 9 years ago 400 BHP was a lot. Now Ford, Chevy and Chrysler all make cheap cars with way more than that and Jaguar make a car with 550 BHP that is just brilliant and reliable and that comes with a proper warranty.
& Ford, Chevy & Chrysler are all selling a similar rival product to each other, but they're all still selling! I hear what you're saying, but at the same time the likes of Jaguar & Porsche etc etc etc have been around for decades making very nice sports cars, still didn't stop people buying TVR's though did it, or any other equivalent, because that's what they preferred.The market has moved on. When TVR went out of business 9 years ago 400 BHP was a lot. Now Ford, Chevy and Chrysler all make cheap cars with way more than that and Jaguar make a car with 550 BHP that is just brilliant and reliable and that comes with a proper warranty.
I'm not arguing with anyone, but there has always been and always will be a massive variety of cars in various forms of performance & reliability and the only reason they all sell is personal taste and budget. You can compare until you're blue in the face, but there's always room in any market in any sector, as long as you make something people will like! We all know the problems you can have with the cars we've got now, but we've all still got them...
Chevy & Chrysler may both make cheap cars with a decent sized engine, but would you buy one?! I certainly wouldn't!! 15 years after it was built & I'd still rather have my Tuscan than anything from either of those outfits because I love it. And it looks 10x better than anything they offer. Even the Jag doesn't interest me, they're just not my cup of tea.
I drove a mates remapped 997 Turbo pulling over 550bhp the other day, & yes it's an incredible piece of machinery, but I get more enjoyment from taking mine by the sruff of the neck & wrestling with it. The new Mustang is going to sell well because it's cheap compared to a lot of other stuff in that league, but will it feel as special as a Griff? I doubt it.
At the end of it all, if they do it right & do justice to the TVR roots then people will buy it. And after all, variety is the spice of life, right?!
R7EBO said:
unrepentant said:
They were all those things. They are out of business.
The market has moved on. When TVR went out of business 9 years ago 400 BHP was a lot. Now Ford, Chevy and Chrysler all make cheap cars with way more than that and Jaguar make a car with 550 BHP that is just brilliant and reliable and that comes with a proper warranty.
& Ford, Chevy & Chrysler are all selling a similar rival product to each other, but they're all still selling! I hear what you're saying, but at the same time the likes of Jaguar & Porsche etc etc etc have been around for decades making very nice sports cars, still didn't stop people buying TVR's though did it, or any other equivalent, because that's what they preferred.The market has moved on. When TVR went out of business 9 years ago 400 BHP was a lot. Now Ford, Chevy and Chrysler all make cheap cars with way more than that and Jaguar make a car with 550 BHP that is just brilliant and reliable and that comes with a proper warranty.
I'm not arguing with anyone, but there has always been and always will be a massive variety of cars in various forms of performance & reliability and the only reason they all sell is personal taste and budget. You can compare until you're blue in the face, but there's always room in any market in any sector, as long as you make something people will like! We all know the problems you can have with the cars we've got now, but we've all still got them...
Chevy & Chrysler may both make cheap cars with a decent sized engine, but would you buy one?! I certainly wouldn't!! 15 years after it was built & I'd still rather have my Tuscan than anything from either of those outfits because I love it. And it looks 10x better than anything they offer. Even the Jag doesn't interest me, they're just not my cup of tea.
I drove a mates remapped 997 Turbo pulling over 550bhp the other day, & yes it's an incredible piece of machinery, but I get more enjoyment from taking mine by the sruff of the neck & wrestling with it. The new Mustang is going to sell well because it's cheap compared to a lot of other stuff in that league, but will it feel as special as a Griff? I doubt it.
At the end of it all, if they do it right & do justice to the TVR roots then people will buy it. And after all, variety is the spice of life, right?!
All very true. The real crux is whether there are enough at the price needed to be profitable. I also hope that any new TVR doesn't get alienated by some of the fans of the older cars which is sadly a risk. Delivering anything is going to be really difficult and a hard task and impossible to replicate any of the old ethos' that went with previous model groups. They have to reinvent and I hope we'll support it even if we don't like it for ourselves.
R7EBO said:
& Ford, Chevy & Chrysler are all selling a similar rival product to each other, but they're all still selling! I hear what you're saying, but at the same time the likes of Jaguar & Porsche etc etc etc have been around for decades making very nice sports cars, still didn't stop people buying TVR's though did it, or any other equivalent, because that's what they preferred.
Actually for most of its existence people didn't buy TVR's. Most of the time it didn't sell enough cars to be profitable, hence the frequent changes of ownership and insolvency's. When I was one of the few people to buy a new TVR in 2002 the level of power and performance was not available elsewhere at anything like the 40,000 pounds I paid for my Tuscan. Likewise when I went back to the factory the next year for a T2 and then a Sagaris. The Sagaris was 50 grand for a stunningly beautiful car (IMO) with great performance. Unfortunately at 50k they lost money on them and they were pretty poorly built. Certainly the level of factory backup would be unacceptable in today's market as would the cavalier attitude towards customer service. Now 400 HP is commonplace, so are comprehensive 4 year warranty's and excellent customer service is expected from new car buyers, especially at the 80k price point that a modern Sagaris would be at.
RichB said:
Lotus E300S said:
..The merc porsche jag aston sporty cars are 1400kg plus...
Indeed plus. Most (bar the Porsche) are around 1600kg these days. Any number of major manufacturers can sell you a big ol' GT barge with a huge, charismatic engine.
Lotus et al center around lightweight cars powered by humdrum four bangers (and a relatively prosaic V6, but an Evora isn't exactly lightweight at 1.4 tons either and the V6 Exiges are fairly traick biased).
Proper, relatively small and light sports cars with a big, charismatic engine are actually quite thin on the ground nowadays. Off the top of my head I can only name Morgan as a going concern...
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