2017 TVR predicted pricing

2017 TVR predicted pricing

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Discussion

HarryW

Original Poster:

15,150 posts

268 months

Sunday 6th September 2015
quotequote all
The new TVR due in 2017 has generated a lot of debate, some of which is whether the price estimate is unrealistic. I have contributed to other threads where this part of the new car has come up time and again and thought it deserves its own topic.
As a deposit holder I'm at a loss to understand where the £80k+ estimates and assertions come from. I for one will walk if they approach that. Indeed I would buy a Mustang V8 at £34k tomorrow if I thought that's were they will end up. Can I ask if anyone who is 'talking' up the price actually a deposit holder too...

This is my thinking;
The list prices for TVRs when they were running down between 2005-2007 ranged from £38-55k. Let's not add to the issue and option up, give or take a couple if k its spot on.
The direct equivalent price taking into account inflation as of today funnily enough works out to be near the current TVR management estimate of £55-75k for the new car. If you add in the claimed effiency of the build process being undertaken and a third party effectively providing the warranty for the engine I think they are spot on. The claim is for an affordable giant slayer, anymore than that it is not a slayer but a runner in the Giants pack. Or are we saying the current TVR management don't know what they are talking about. Discuss.

Bluebottle

3,498 posts

239 months

Sunday 6th September 2015
quotequote all
I too have paid my deposit, but I am not so nieve as to think I'm gonna get a new tiv for £50k....read The interviews L.E. has done, he has clearly stated the the new car will be between £55 and £85k. I don't understand why people think they're going to get a cheap motor?...I fully expect it to be very near the top end of the estimate.

Edited by Bluebottle on Monday 7th September 01:51


Edited by Bluebottle on Monday 7th September 01:52

HarryW

Original Poster:

15,150 posts

268 months

Sunday 6th September 2015
quotequote all
Glad you read what I actually posted......

I don't actually expect it be at Mustang prices that's just plain daft I know, but also I do not expect it to start with the 8 out of the blocks either. I fully expect there will be models and upgrades that may take one there, but to me that is something other that the TVR DNA when you look at the inflation extrapolation I quoted....

Edited by HarryW on Sunday 6th September 21:46

SAGTAFF

595 posts

213 months

Sunday 6th September 2015
quotequote all
HarryW said:
This is my thinking;
The list prices for TVRs when they were running down between 2005-2007 ranged from £38-55k. Let's not add to the issue and option up, give or take a couple if k its spot on.
The direct equivalent price taking into account inflation as of today funnily enough works out to be near the current TVR management estimate of £55-75k for the new car. If you add in the claimed effiency of the build process being undertaken and a third party effectively providing the warranty for the engine I think they are spot on. The claim is for an affordable giant slayer, anymore than that it is not a slayer but a runner in the Giants pack. Or are we saying the current TVR management don't know what they are talking about. Discuss.
1. TVR were making heavy losses when it shut
2. If you expecting the car to be £50k then personally I think you will be disappointed. Entry level will be the top end of the range they mention with extras pushing well into the 80's.
3. They need to make money
4. When they talk about giant slaying then they are hopefully talking about performance figures that you can only buy elsewhere for £200k+ thus making their £80k look a bargain (affordable)

Black Tasmin

3 posts

102 months

Sunday 6th September 2015
quotequote all
I would think that the new car would be in the high £70k going by the fact that they have no money to make the car as the annual accounts for their first year of trading as a so called heritage parts supplier, shows a bank balance of only £66,691. With salaries and outgoings this is not sufficient funds to even make one car, hence why there is no design, prototype or even a scale model. A very amateur way to manage a car company especially going by the confirmation letter for deposit, the deposits are clearly being used to build the car.

On top of this Edgar does NOT own TVR and is all spin, the badge is being used under licence, my fellow TVR car club members have pulled out!

We could also assume that the full 250 deposits could be false to gain a sense of achievement in deposits and to make the product worth more than the asking price.

How many times have we heard several build date times 2013, 2015 or is it 2017 and still no designs obviously due to the lack of money!

clive f

7,250 posts

232 months

Monday 7th September 2015
quotequote all
SAGTAFF said:
1. TVR were making heavy losses when it shut
2. If you expecting the car to be £50k then personally I think you will be disappointed. Entry level will be the top end of the range they mention with extras pushing well into the 80's.
3. They need to make money
4. When they talk about giant slaying then they are hopefully talking about performance figures that you can only buy elsewhere for £200k+ thus making their £80k look a bargain (affordable)
^^ this, sums it up for me.



julian64

14,317 posts

253 months

Monday 7th September 2015
quotequote all
Maybe I'm getting old but I'm not really sure why I would want a new TVR

I took my Cerbera out yesterday. Its now about 15 years old.

It was far faster than anything around me. It was a challenge and exciting to drive in a way that a new NCAP Euro emission car is unlikely to be. The design is such that it looked space age parked anywhere near any other car seen.

There are a lot of people out there who have never had a TVR to pootle round in and for them a new player on the market will give a welcome change to all the nanny state euroboxes produced. But whatever edgar produces its likely to be far more nany state than most of us TVR owners are already used to.

350Matt

3,733 posts

278 months

Monday 7th September 2015
quotequote all
Black Tasmin said:
I would think that the new car would be in the high £70k going by the fact that they have no money to make the car as the annual accounts for their first year of trading as a so called heritage parts supplier, shows a bank balance of only £66,691. With salaries and outgoings this is not sufficient funds to even make one car, hence why there is no design, prototype or even a scale model. A very amateur way to manage a car company especially going by the confirmation letter for deposit, the deposits are clearly being used to build the car.

On top of this Edgar does NOT own TVR and is all spin, the badge is being used under licence, my fellow TVR car club members have pulled out!

We could also assume that the full 250 deposits could be false to gain a sense of achievement in deposits and to make the product worth more than the asking price.

How many times have we heard several build date times 2013, 2015 or is it 2017 and still no designs obviously due to the lack of money!
and who are you exactly mr 1 post?

get back under your bridge

HarryW

Original Poster:

15,150 posts

268 months

Monday 7th September 2015
quotequote all
350Matt said:
Black Tasmin said:
I would think that the new car would be in the high £70k going by the fact that they have no money to make the car as the annual accounts for their first year of trading as a so called heritage parts supplier, shows a bank balance of only £66,691. With salaries and outgoings this is not sufficient funds to even make one car, hence why there is no design, prototype or even a scale model. A very amateur way to manage a car company especially going by the confirmation letter for deposit, the deposits are clearly being used to build the car.

On top of this Edgar does NOT own TVR and is all spin, the badge is being used under licence, my fellow TVR car club members have pulled out!

We could also assume that the full 250 deposits could be false to gain a sense of achievement in deposits and to make the product worth more than the asking price.

How many times have we heard several build date times 2013, 2015 or is it 2017 and still no designs obviously due to the lack of money!
and who are you exactly mr 1 post?

get back under your bridge
I did wonder if someone had registered a profile just to post that whilst grinding their axe..... Not worth entering into debate about it tbh.

HarryW

Original Poster:

15,150 posts

268 months

Monday 7th September 2015
quotequote all
Can’t deny TVR were probably losing money towards the end, however there were many more significant reasons other than pricing that led to that. Which is a completely separate discussion which to be fair was done to death back in the day.

I’m trying to get discussion back on the track I intended it to be. Not very well I know and I’m repeating myself too, but in big handfuls, TVRs price point was £40-55k back in the mid noughties, that equates to £55-75k today.

The market for TVRs is a difficult niche one but all TVR statements and interviews of late have said they intend to pick up that niche were it left off as there is a gap in the market. LE did state in a previous interview that the TVR market was the same as the second hand Aston one, so that helps somewhat. He has also been very dismissive of overpriced cars, but I assume by that he meant that for Hypercars, not the sports car market, although Ferarri. Lambo and McLaren effectively starting at £200k are well above TVR in price point and not worth comparing. If you look at what’s available this side of the overpriced ones you struggle, but I’ll have a go.

For example starting prices for the following;
Aston Martin V8V £87k
Porsche 911 £74k
Porsche Cayman £40k
Lotus Evora £53k
Lotus Exige £56k
Ford Mustang GT V8 £34k

My expectation and anticipation, blind faith if you like, is that the initial launch car will be the ‘main stream’ car. Call it the modern Chim, Griff, T350 etc a bread and butter car and the price point for that according to Steve Cropley at Autocar will be around the £60k mark. PH still seems to think that the car should come in at £80k+. Whereas I expect upgrades (Red Rose, ‘S’ models etc) to boost the basic car price to that point and possibly beyond but why do I seem alone in thinking the whole point of TVRs niche market will be missed if that is the starting price…………….

Discuss..............

FarmyardPants

4,099 posts

217 months

Monday 7th September 2015
quotequote all
I reckon it will start with a 6, but probably in the 65-69 range. 70k and above won't sit with the "affordable sports car" mentality that they are trying to perpetuate.

rumbled

348 posts

232 months

Monday 7th September 2015
quotequote all
I would hope the entry level car would undercut the base 911 in cost and then beat it on looks, performance and enjoyment.

I'd be happy with that outcome having paid a deposit myself.

Moycie

536 posts

196 months

Monday 7th September 2015
quotequote all
I was expecting it to come in at somewhere around £70k to be honest.
The LE edition will be with some extras discounted on the usual price.
The launch model will be the TVR is back, and wow factor, from the off.
Expecting there will be the opportunity to do upgrades which will inevitably bump up the price.
I think the later future models will be the lower end, all being well.

They want to potentially race it, they want it to be the car you can buy that you will see racing, and they want to ruffle some feathers in the market. I guess we will have to wait and see.

They have big backers and reputable partners. If anyone thinks our deposit will fund the build, I think that might just develop the door handle or button entry.

The time frame for racing? who knows. The exact launch date? who knows. The engine is dyno tested and we should see more info soon, as I understand. It's all part of the journey.

I can't wait to see more.

Grey Ghost

4,583 posts

219 months

Monday 7th September 2015
quotequote all
rumbled said:
I would hope the entry level car would undercut the base 911 in cost and then beat it on looks, performance and enjoyment.

I'd be happy with that outcome having paid a deposit myself.
The new TVR may only beat the looks and cost issues you mention above given the performance of the new Gen 2 991 Carrera posted on PH recently.

I'd expect the new TVR to start in the late £50K's to early £60K's and then go through to just under £70K in basic guise depending on options and well into the £80K's in the highest performance guise at launch. Everything after that is going to be down to sales figures as without sales no further costs will be suffered by the financiers.

V8 GRF

7,294 posts

209 months

Monday 7th September 2015
quotequote all
As folk have pointed out Les Edgar has been quite clear about pricing in the interviews he's given, including mine.

He asked me to guess a price range after he gave me the caveat of remembering that the Sagaris was being sold for £55k 10 years ago.
I guessed £50k - £80k, he said for a 'range' that wasn't far out.

To meet the expectations of the way he's described the car as a 'giant slayer' etc you can expect teh LE to be at the top of that range i.e. Fully specced but with an element of discount for all the 'extras' fitted as standard. I can't see anyone getting much change from £80k personally and that is just my guess.

Private companies do not need to fully disclose their full accounts, operating costs or indeed how much money they have in the bank. Very few do if they have any sense.

Also to put things into context, I was told how much money TVR had lost in the last couple of years of the PW era and it was a single and double digit figure in the millions before he stitched up the Russian who walked right into a poor due diligence nightmare.

alphaone

1,019 posts

172 months

Monday 7th September 2015
quotequote all
Glad I didn't put a deposit down now, at 80K I couldn't afford one !

Hughesie

12,568 posts

281 months

Monday 7th September 2015
quotequote all
I'm a deposit holder and expecting it to be in the £73-£80k range...

Tvr Power

1,076 posts

205 months

Monday 7th September 2015
quotequote all
V8 GRF said:
As folk have pointed out Les Edgar has been quite clear about pricing in the interviews he's given, including mine.

He asked me to guess a price range after he gave me the caveat of remembering that the Sagaris was being sold for £55k 10 years ago.
I guessed £50k - £80k, he said for a 'range' that wasn't far out.

To meet the expectations of the way he's described the car as a 'giant slayer' etc you can expect teh LE to be at the top of that range i.e. Fully specced but with an element of discount for all the 'extras' fitted as standard. I can't see anyone getting much change from £80k personally and that is just my guess.

Private companies do not need to fully disclose their full accounts, operating costs or indeed how much money they have in the bank. Very few do if they have any sense.

Also to put things into context, I was told how much money TVR had lost in the last couple of years of the PW era and it was a single and double digit figure in the millions before he stitched up the Russian who walked right into a poor due diligence nightmare.
Please answer the following and explain how this can work ?

1 No Factory
2 No Studio Design as to this day
3 NO Engine Spec
4 NO Car
5 NO Car Assemblers
6 85K plus minimum virtual tvr
7 Most worrying no testing lets use the Customer as development puppies

Finally lets set up a dealer network and be told you can only buy From Tvr Parts not "True Tvr Heritage Specialist"

Dom



HarryW

Original Poster:

15,150 posts

268 months

Monday 7th September 2015
quotequote all
Just to reiterate the point I'm trying to make yet again.
The list price for the Sagaris 10 years ago was just over £50k, perhaps optioned it was £55k, or £57k for Doms one as stated in another thread. At the same time the T350 was just under £40k list......


DonkeyApple

54,919 posts

168 months

Monday 7th September 2015
quotequote all
HarryW said:
Can’t deny TVR were probably losing money towards the end, however there were many more significant reasons other than pricing that led to that. Which is a completely separate discussion which to be fair was done to death back in the day.

I’m trying to get discussion back on the track I intended it to be. Not very well I know and I’m repeating myself too, but in big handfuls, TVRs price point was £40-55k back in the mid noughties, that equates to £55-75k today.

The market for TVRs is a difficult niche one but all TVR statements and interviews of late have said they intend to pick up that niche were it left off as there is a gap in the market. LE did state in a previous interview that the TVR market was the same as the second hand Aston one, so that helps somewhat. He has also been very dismissive of overpriced cars, but I assume by that he meant that for Hypercars, not the sports car market, although Ferarri. Lambo and McLaren effectively starting at £200k are well above TVR in price point and not worth comparing. If you look at what’s available this side of the overpriced ones you struggle, but I’ll have a go.

For example starting prices for the following;
Aston Martin V8V £87k
Porsche 911 £74k
Porsche Cayman £40k
Lotus Evora £53k
Lotus Exige £56k
Ford Mustang GT V8 £34k

My expectation and anticipation, blind faith if you like, is that the initial launch car will be the ‘main stream’ car. Call it the modern Chim, Griff, T350 etc a bread and butter car and the price point for that according to Steve Cropley at Autocar will be around the £60k mark. PH still seems to think that the car should come in at £80k+. Whereas I expect upgrades (Red Rose, ‘S’ models etc) to boost the basic car price to that point and possibly beyond but why do I seem alone in thinking the whole point of TVRs niche market will be missed if that is the starting price…………….

Discuss..............
Aston Martin V8V £87k Nice runabout for the wife.
Porsche 911 £74k Expected runabout for your accountant.
Porsche Cayman £40k Your son's car.
Lotus Evora £53k Your Head of IT's car.
Lotus Exige £56k Your Junior Programmer's car.
Ford Mustang GT V8 £34k At £34k, you'd just buy it for the hoot!!

Re pricing for TVR's, I think anyone expecting them to be under £60k will be upset but how expensive they end up being has to be down to what savings the iStream process offers. If they were being built in the traditional way but benefiting from much higher quality shells and doors that all fit out of the box and using other modern tech gains for production I would guess you're going to be easily over £100k nowadays. But the iStream process is the real variable. If that massively cuts the number of people you need to employ and the space you need to rent then the cars could come in much lower.

My gut feeling is that they'll try to get prices as inline with the Evora as possible to start with but aim to move prices north as efficiently as possible.