Tip of the Day - AP Clutch
Discussion
Before trying to refit the T5WC, make absolutely sure that the clutch disengages either by using a proper alignment tool while your gf/assistant presses the clutch pedal, or just by using the tip of a long screwdriver to ensure that both discs move freely.
This will save much sweating and swearing while under the car with a generous friend trying to manoeuvre the 35kg gearbox in to place (not to mention trying the patience of the gf pressing the clutch pedal) - as I found out last night.
Still not entirely sure what was causing the front friction plate to stick, will be investigating this evening.
This will save much sweating and swearing while under the car with a generous friend trying to manoeuvre the 35kg gearbox in to place (not to mention trying the patience of the gf pressing the clutch pedal) - as I found out last night.
Still not entirely sure what was causing the front friction plate to stick, will be investigating this evening.
Don't know which plate it effects but have you checked the three star washers are in correctly?
2 of mine were missing all together and the third was in the bellhop sing and it caused major problems changing gear on my Tuscan.
Apparently these missing causes one plate to not disengage properly.
2 of mine were missing all together and the third was in the bellhop sing and it caused major problems changing gear on my Tuscan.
Apparently these missing causes one plate to not disengage properly.
YIp those washers caused me no end of grief when I had my clutch out a couple of years ago. Ensure you refit the proper starlock washers not spurious motor factor versions - i think power are the only approved AP racing agent, also give the springs on the plates a tweak with a pair of pliers.
The pleasing thing is I replaced the slave cylinder as it was weeping but only the starlock washers on the clutch and it's still going strong 20mths down the line.
The pleasing thing is I replaced the slave cylinder as it was weeping but only the starlock washers on the clutch and it's still going strong 20mths down the line.
Full disclosure - I was not simply refitting my original clutch, or fitting a new one. Instead I had an almost new clutch that I'd bought off eBay a few years ago. I measured the flywheel side friction plate and it was 7.2mm compared with my old friction plate at 6.7mm, so it seemed like a no brainer using the almost new clutch.
However the pins/washers had definitely set themselves so that they didn't release the flywheel side friction plate. I didn't realise this for some time, hence my original post.
I initially thought that perhaps what appeared to be superficial damage to the cover plate might be causing the stainless steel plates to jam against the intermediate plate. So my first attempt to resolve the problem involved prizing the assembly apart a little (rather than freeing up the pin/washer completely), and using the undamaged cover plate. This appeared to work in that when fitted I could move the flywheel side friction plate with the tip of a screwdriver.
That was not good enough to allow the gearbox to seat properly, and much frustration was expressed loudly.
Fortunately I have a broken T5WC lying around, so took it apart and tried using the input shaft to test. Sure enough the friction plate wasn't releasing sufficiently to seat the shaft easily and spin the shaft.
So this time I dismantled the intermediate plate completely, previously I had only been unbolting the pins and leaving them inserted in the star washers. I separated all the pins/washers, picked the best three washers, and cleaned up the pins with sandpaper.
Then when I reassembled I took care not to over compress the pack, and bolted it to the flywheel as evenly as I could so the pins/washers would seat as little as possible. This time the input shaft spun freely with pedal depressed, and the gearbox was seated within two minutes. Much merriment ensued.
In future I will not try to refit without using new pins and washers, it really isn't worth the hassle.
However the pins/washers had definitely set themselves so that they didn't release the flywheel side friction plate. I didn't realise this for some time, hence my original post.
I initially thought that perhaps what appeared to be superficial damage to the cover plate might be causing the stainless steel plates to jam against the intermediate plate. So my first attempt to resolve the problem involved prizing the assembly apart a little (rather than freeing up the pin/washer completely), and using the undamaged cover plate. This appeared to work in that when fitted I could move the flywheel side friction plate with the tip of a screwdriver.
That was not good enough to allow the gearbox to seat properly, and much frustration was expressed loudly.
Fortunately I have a broken T5WC lying around, so took it apart and tried using the input shaft to test. Sure enough the friction plate wasn't releasing sufficiently to seat the shaft easily and spin the shaft.
So this time I dismantled the intermediate plate completely, previously I had only been unbolting the pins and leaving them inserted in the star washers. I separated all the pins/washers, picked the best three washers, and cleaned up the pins with sandpaper.
Then when I reassembled I took care not to over compress the pack, and bolted it to the flywheel as evenly as I could so the pins/washers would seat as little as possible. This time the input shaft spun freely with pedal depressed, and the gearbox was seated within two minutes. Much merriment ensued.
In future I will not try to refit without using new pins and washers, it really isn't worth the hassle.
The first time I fitted a new clutch about three years ago I also fitted a new RP Slave - I could not believe how it transformed the driving experience, the clutch was so much lighter. But I didn't know whether this was due the new clutch or due to the slave.
Now I've driven my car for the first time since fitting a second (nearly) new clutch, and at first I thought something was wrong - the clutch was so light!
So it appears that AP clutches do get much heavier as they get older, but it happens so gradually that you don't notice - a bit like the frog in the pan of water.
Now I've driven my car for the first time since fitting a second (nearly) new clutch, and at first I thought something was wrong - the clutch was so light!
So it appears that AP clutches do get much heavier as they get older, but it happens so gradually that you don't notice - a bit like the frog in the pan of water.
Chuggaboom said:
While you had everything apart, did you change the little metal clips that cost pence ? I am told they soften which can cause the clutch to drag.
Also, did you fit new seals to the RP slave ? If so, who/where did you get them from ?
No, but I will be ordering some of those clips ready for next time - thanks for the reminder.Also, did you fit new seals to the RP slave ? If so, who/where did you get them from ?
No, because the first time I tried replacing the seals on my original slave I damaged them, and since the RP comes pre-assembled I decided to let sleeping dogs lie.
Chuggaboom said:
While you had everything apart, did you change the little metal clips that cost pence ? I am told they soften which can cause the clutch to drag.
If only if only if only...About 500 miles and one track day later my clutch is dragging badly. Bite point is fine, but it doesn't fully disengage. It's also started juddering, and the behaviour is intermittent. This must be mechanical rather than hydraulic, so I reckon for the sake of a couple of quid on new star washers (5mm Washers Outside diameter: 11.44mm, Shaft diameter: 5mm, Thickness: 1.2mm, Material: Sprung steel) I am now going to have to pull the gearbox, again.
Devastated, as I am certain to miss the CircuitDays Ring Trip at the beginning of April.
On Friday I drove the car less than a mile and it was virtually undriveable. Yesterday I did a 100 mile round trip and it was faultless, no dragging at all. Getting the gearbox off is a mammoth PITA, so I'm starting to think perhaps I should risk it for the CD trip.
Would be very interested to hear other people's experience of Star Washer issues. This is all guesswork on my part, perhaps it's not the star washers, but I'm struggling to think of anything else that could cause these symptoms.
Would be very interested to hear other people's experience of Star Washer issues. This is all guesswork on my part, perhaps it's not the star washers, but I'm struggling to think of anything else that could cause these symptoms.
Mine sometimes drags badly and the peddle feels different at the same time.
Taking my foot off the peddle, tapping the peddle with my foot then reapplying normally sorts it out on almost all occasions.
This has been going on off and on since I replaced the start washers and may have been going on before this but problems caused by the washers would have effectively hidden it.
There is no fluid leakage anywhere that I can find.
I think in my case it is the feed seal that blocks the fluid input into the master cylinder when the peddle is pressed. I don't think that it seals properly every time the clutch is pressed allowing a small amount of fluid back into the reservoir. The tap realigns it allowing it seal correctly.
Since then one or both of two things has been happening:
1) It is getting better since I have had the car due to being used more.
2) I am getting used to it and not noticing it or even automatically doing the tap without realising.
I have purchased a master cylinder overhaul kit but have not got around to stripping it and overhauling it and replacing the seals but that is my plan.
To be honest I have had the kit for over a year now!
Taking my foot off the peddle, tapping the peddle with my foot then reapplying normally sorts it out on almost all occasions.
This has been going on off and on since I replaced the start washers and may have been going on before this but problems caused by the washers would have effectively hidden it.
There is no fluid leakage anywhere that I can find.
I think in my case it is the feed seal that blocks the fluid input into the master cylinder when the peddle is pressed. I don't think that it seals properly every time the clutch is pressed allowing a small amount of fluid back into the reservoir. The tap realigns it allowing it seal correctly.
Since then one or both of two things has been happening:
1) It is getting better since I have had the car due to being used more.
2) I am getting used to it and not noticing it or even automatically doing the tap without realising.
I have purchased a master cylinder overhaul kit but have not got around to stripping it and overhauling it and replacing the seals but that is my plan.
To be honest I have had the kit for over a year now!
Thanks a million, appreciated your comments. I don't think I have a hydraulic issue, the master starting to fail now would be too much of a coincidence, but I could be wrong!
I think it's more likely my own fault for not replacing the star washers. And now I'm trying to work out whether to risk a Ring trip in two weeks time, or take the backup car.
The thing is the first time the clutch started dragging was after 90 mins in 5th on the motorway, but immediately after a track day. It was fine on track though so I am thoroughly confused as to what is likely to cause it to reoccur.
I think it's more likely my own fault for not replacing the star washers. And now I'm trying to work out whether to risk a Ring trip in two weeks time, or take the backup car.
The thing is the first time the clutch started dragging was after 90 mins in 5th on the motorway, but immediately after a track day. It was fine on track though so I am thoroughly confused as to what is likely to cause it to reoccur.
Some more things I've discovered, the hard way.
It wasn't the star washers causing the clutch to drag, it was a grenaded pilot bearing. I should have replaced the bearing the year before when the gearbox was off the car, but I didn't. At least I saved £6 on the cost of a new bearing. This is all that was left when I removed the gearbox.
Sadly I had to recover the car from the Ring because the failed pilot bearing destabilised the T5WC input shaft which lost some teeth.
And also damaged the countershaft
It wasn't the star washers causing the clutch to drag, it was a grenaded pilot bearing. I should have replaced the bearing the year before when the gearbox was off the car, but I didn't. At least I saved £6 on the cost of a new bearing. This is all that was left when I removed the gearbox.
Sadly I had to recover the car from the Ring because the failed pilot bearing destabilised the T5WC input shaft which lost some teeth.
And also damaged the countershaft
More recently I've been trying to refit the gearbox, but with no luck at all.
The gearbox simply refused to move the last 3/4". My theory was that because I have now shimmed the input shaft such that there is almost no play, it became too difficult to align the box so that the input shaft found the centre of the new pilot bearing.
My GF who always assists by depressing the clutch reminded me about what I had said the last time: if it doesn't go in easily then something is wrong. If only I'd paid attention.
It was sometime later that it became clear what the problem was: Some months previously I had given my spare input shaft retainer to another PHer, and he supplied a replacement that he found online (with my agreement). When it arrived it was obviously too long, so I gave to my dad who turned it down to the correct length. What I didn't do was check the diameter, and that was the issue.
The gearbox simply refused to move the last 3/4". My theory was that because I have now shimmed the input shaft such that there is almost no play, it became too difficult to align the box so that the input shaft found the centre of the new pilot bearing.
My GF who always assists by depressing the clutch reminded me about what I had said the last time: if it doesn't go in easily then something is wrong. If only I'd paid attention.
It was sometime later that it became clear what the problem was: Some months previously I had given my spare input shaft retainer to another PHer, and he supplied a replacement that he found online (with my agreement). When it arrived it was obviously too long, so I gave to my dad who turned it down to the correct length. What I didn't do was check the diameter, and that was the issue.
The only good thing that has come out of this is that I have had to find an easier way to refit the gearbox, as I have run out of favours that I can ask from friends. Previously I have had one friend lift the box into place, while I try to guide into position, while my GF depresses the clutch.
Now I am using a sling made of cable ties to hold the tail of the box, so no real effort is needed. This time it took all of 30 seconds to fit the box, once it was positioned and suspended as needed.
Now I am using a sling made of cable ties to hold the tail of the box, so no real effort is needed. This time it took all of 30 seconds to fit the box, once it was positioned and suspended as needed.
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