AutoCar - New TVR V8 first dyno test
Discussion
I do think it was a bit of marketing spin to first talk in newton metres (who in UK uses them?) - when in fact it is 368lbs of torque - my 4.0LTR Chim (+supercharger) is 400lbs of torque, and it was faintly laughable when they said 'it broke the dyno' - NO, it didn't break it, it just set off whatever the pre-defined software limit was, those engine Dynos can deal with 1000's lbs of torque, again just marketing crap.
Why they didn't go for the Voodoo engine is a mystery. People expect more now, the competing cars in the boring category (e.g. porsche + bmw) are all delivery 400+bhp cars for sub £70k - yes it will have the weight advantage - but seems odd to cripple the thing with an old engine as a starting point.
In all of this where are we saying TVR's targetted niche is, I still see it as the Evora and GT4 segement. I do not think it is amongst the GT3s, 458's and Maccas of this world. I do not think they could draw enough people away from that segment regardless of how good the car is. However I expect in perfomrance terms this where the new TVR will be seen to 'punch above its weight'.
DonkeyApple said:
V8 GRF said:
u wouldn't look back at it as you walked away from parking it up or look out of the window with a brew in your hand like I still do with the Griff 9 years later....
We all do with our Tivs. But I thought we were just checking the handbrake was working?
NickOrangeTVR said:
I do think it was a bit of marketing spin to first talk in newton metres (who in UK uses them?) - when in fact it is 368lbs of torque - my 4.0LTR Chim (+supercharger) is 400lbs of torque, and it was faintly laughable when they said 'it broke the dyno' - NO, it didn't break it, it just set off whatever the pre-defined software limit was, those engine Dynos can deal with 1000's lbs of torque, again just marketing crap.
Why they didn't go for the Voodoo engine is a mystery. People expect more now, the competing cars in the boring category (e.g. porsche + bmw) are all delivery 400+bhp cars for sub £70k - yes it will have the weight advantage - but seems odd to cripple the thing with an old engine as a starting point.
thing is, it will have 400+ hp though...... even with an 'old' engineWhy they didn't go for the Voodoo engine is a mystery. People expect more now, the competing cars in the boring category (e.g. porsche + bmw) are all delivery 400+bhp cars for sub £70k - yes it will have the weight advantage - but seems odd to cripple the thing with an old engine as a starting point.
lets face it if they said they were putting in rover V8's but fully re-worked to give 400 +Bhp would that matter?
400+ bhp in an 1100kg car is going to be mighty fast
That 'old' engine - that's been out for 4 years. So a trusted developed engine with a decent torque and power output running on normal unleaded, for which Cosworth can add some tweaks and value.
I can't afford one, but can't wait to see the new cars, I really hope their sucessful. Whilst we're all talking about who will or won't buy new, that may be my Cerbera replacement in several years time
I can't afford one, but can't wait to see the new cars, I really hope their sucessful. Whilst we're all talking about who will or won't buy new, that may be my Cerbera replacement in several years time
DonkeyApple said:
I agree completely. I missed LE talking as I was chatting to Lloyd Dev about Rangies but Dave filled me in.
My premis is that the pool of current enthusiasts is far too small to be able to sell 250+ cars a year to and that means they must ensure the new car also appeals to non enthusiasts. At the same time I think it is very fair to say that they have priced the first cars on squeezed margins to ensure a price range that gets those 250 cars away to us lot. But looking forward it's almost impossible to believe that they will maintain those initial prices. Like all manufacturers they will work hard to keep the stripped out base model that almost no one in reality will be buying at as low a figure as possible but as the fully specced LE first edition is already mooted at over £80k it is easy to see that the equivalent, fully specced, later editions as the firm gets established will be hitting £100k very soon after. I'd hazard well before 2020 just 2+ years in to first delivery.
I don't know what a base 911 costs but I'd wager that the average purchase price once the typical options are selected is well above that base figure which sole purpose is really one of marketing more than anything else. Likewise with the LE model it may have a base in the £60s but few will be bought at that level and most will be optioned up closer to the £80s figure mentioned. Raising the base price a little and adding more options by 2018/19 is an almost given and that will get you very easily to a price that is near or damn it £100k.
And at that sort of level and needing to find more non current enthusiast buyers than existing ones to maintain volumes it's why it seems like such a clever idea to slap the Cosworth brand over the Ford and to apply Gordon Murrays name also. Without those and even at the introductory price levels they just wouldn't be able to attract new people to the marque.
I think if this is TVR's strategy they are in big trouble. The easiest sell TVR will ever have is to the 250 people who have already given deposits. These are people who have paid their deposits for a TVR badge, a cosworth badge on a fairly standard engine, and two well known names.My premis is that the pool of current enthusiasts is far too small to be able to sell 250+ cars a year to and that means they must ensure the new car also appeals to non enthusiasts. At the same time I think it is very fair to say that they have priced the first cars on squeezed margins to ensure a price range that gets those 250 cars away to us lot. But looking forward it's almost impossible to believe that they will maintain those initial prices. Like all manufacturers they will work hard to keep the stripped out base model that almost no one in reality will be buying at as low a figure as possible but as the fully specced LE first edition is already mooted at over £80k it is easy to see that the equivalent, fully specced, later editions as the firm gets established will be hitting £100k very soon after. I'd hazard well before 2020 just 2+ years in to first delivery.
I don't know what a base 911 costs but I'd wager that the average purchase price once the typical options are selected is well above that base figure which sole purpose is really one of marketing more than anything else. Likewise with the LE model it may have a base in the £60s but few will be bought at that level and most will be optioned up closer to the £80s figure mentioned. Raising the base price a little and adding more options by 2018/19 is an almost given and that will get you very easily to a price that is near or damn it £100k.
And at that sort of level and needing to find more non current enthusiast buyers than existing ones to maintain volumes it's why it seems like such a clever idea to slap the Cosworth brand over the Ford and to apply Gordon Murrays name also. Without those and even at the introductory price levels they just wouldn't be able to attract new people to the marque.
The people willing to do this aren't the tough sell. They are the easy marks. They are either fantasists, speculators who will sell their deposts on, gambling that the car will be saleable, or die hard TVR fans who can look past the very obvious TVR faults of fairly recently and believe with very little evidence that two badges and two names are enough assurance for them.
The actual work of TVR will be once the car is complete and available to see. The fantasists and speculators will dissapear and the more 'normal' people will wander by whatever the setup structure of TVR dealers will be, and start looking at the cars.
Now who do you think will be the people who are prepared to pay more for the car. The people willing to put their names and money down without any evidence, or the normal people?
Your idea that the tough sell is to the enthusiasts and the normal people will pay the increased prices is completely the wrong way round for me.
julian64 said:
DonkeyApple said:
I agree completely. I missed LE talking as I was chatting to Lloyd Dev about Rangies but Dave filled me in.
My premis is that the pool of current enthusiasts is far too small to be able to sell 250+ cars a year to and that means they must ensure the new car also appeals to non enthusiasts. At the same time I think it is very fair to say that they have priced the first cars on squeezed margins to ensure a price range that gets those 250 cars away to us lot. But looking forward it's almost impossible to believe that they will maintain those initial prices. Like all manufacturers they will work hard to keep the stripped out base model that almost no one in reality will be buying at as low a figure as possible but as the fully specced LE first edition is already mooted at over £80k it is easy to see that the equivalent, fully specced, later editions as the firm gets established will be hitting £100k very soon after. I'd hazard well before 2020 just 2+ years in to first delivery.
I don't know what a base 911 costs but I'd wager that the average purchase price once the typical options are selected is well above that base figure which sole purpose is really one of marketing more than anything else. Likewise with the LE model it may have a base in the £60s but few will be bought at that level and most will be optioned up closer to the £80s figure mentioned. Raising the base price a little and adding more options by 2018/19 is an almost given and that will get you very easily to a price that is near or damn it £100k.
And at that sort of level and needing to find more non current enthusiast buyers than existing ones to maintain volumes it's why it seems like such a clever idea to slap the Cosworth brand over the Ford and to apply Gordon Murrays name also. Without those and even at the introductory price levels they just wouldn't be able to attract new people to the marque.
I think if this is TVR's strategy they are in big trouble. The easiest sell TVR will ever have is to the 250 people who have already given deposits. These are people who have paid their deposits for a TVR badge, a cosworth badge on a fairly standard engine, and two well known names.My premis is that the pool of current enthusiasts is far too small to be able to sell 250+ cars a year to and that means they must ensure the new car also appeals to non enthusiasts. At the same time I think it is very fair to say that they have priced the first cars on squeezed margins to ensure a price range that gets those 250 cars away to us lot. But looking forward it's almost impossible to believe that they will maintain those initial prices. Like all manufacturers they will work hard to keep the stripped out base model that almost no one in reality will be buying at as low a figure as possible but as the fully specced LE first edition is already mooted at over £80k it is easy to see that the equivalent, fully specced, later editions as the firm gets established will be hitting £100k very soon after. I'd hazard well before 2020 just 2+ years in to first delivery.
I don't know what a base 911 costs but I'd wager that the average purchase price once the typical options are selected is well above that base figure which sole purpose is really one of marketing more than anything else. Likewise with the LE model it may have a base in the £60s but few will be bought at that level and most will be optioned up closer to the £80s figure mentioned. Raising the base price a little and adding more options by 2018/19 is an almost given and that will get you very easily to a price that is near or damn it £100k.
And at that sort of level and needing to find more non current enthusiast buyers than existing ones to maintain volumes it's why it seems like such a clever idea to slap the Cosworth brand over the Ford and to apply Gordon Murrays name also. Without those and even at the introductory price levels they just wouldn't be able to attract new people to the marque.
The people willing to do this aren't the tough sell. They are the easy marks. They are either fantasists, speculators who will sell their deposts on, gambling that the car will be saleable, or die hard TVR fans who can look past the very obvious TVR faults of fairly recently and believe with very little evidence that two badges and two names are enough assurance for them.
The actual work of TVR will be once the car is complete and available to see. The fantasists and speculators will dissapear and the more 'normal' people will wander by whatever the setup structure of TVR dealers will be, and start looking at the cars.
Now who do you think will be the people who are prepared to pay more for the car. The people willing to put their names and money down without any evidence, or the normal people?
Your idea that the tough sell is to the enthusiasts and the normal people will pay the increased prices is completely the wrong way round for me.
Conversely, you seem to be implying that to cross this hurdle they'll need to drop prices after the easy sell LE to get them away? I think we all know that prices will go up and they'll be increasing as rapidly as the business can support.
As for finding the consumers post the LE model well they need to nip in the bud all the old negative rhetoric that people used to spout and I think the three core brands that they are associating their launch with (Cosworth, Murray and Le Mans) go a hell of a long way down that road.
If the latest news had been that the car was going to be built/designed by an unheard of chap and it was to be powered by an LS then I would absolutely agree with the sentiment that beyond us enthusiasts there'd be no way it could sell to the normal market or command any kind of price that could yield any form of profit. It would already have been slaughtered by mainstream columnists and BB posters. Even the most acerbic defenders of the generic brands are holding their tongues mostly at the present.
Time will tell but I think we both agree that the true test will come when they have to start converting sales from the main market so as to keep volumes up. That has to be the big hurdle, beyond the car looking good and going down well enough with us lot. It's why I suspect that while retaining brand values as best as possible even the LE model will be designed with the next set of customers in mind and not so much us. I suspect they'll show pictures first of the lairy Le Mans racer but the road car will be far more subtle than the Sag and probably more like the T350?
julian64 said:
I think if this is TVR's strategy they are in big trouble.
I agree and I disagree with DA that it is.julian64 said:
Your idea that the tough sell is to the enthusiasts and the normal people will pay the increased prices is completely the wrong way round for me.
That's where I believe Tim's thinking is wrong. Yes the easy sell is all of those listed in the post but the ongoing sales in my view are based on Ford's 'Race on Sunday. Sell on Monday' mantra. While there's obviously a burning desire in Les (and others) to go racing and to be the new Dave Richards it's still going to be based on the solid business ground that racing sells, if you market that success and excitement well.It's no co-incidence that the success of the original Tuscan Challenge mirrored the greatest sales period of TVR. The ability to buy a car that looks a whole lot like the one you saw on Sunday or at Le Mans appeals to a great number of folk, and a good many of them will not be dyed-in-the wool TVR fans. Reading the Autocar article emphasises that when Les says you will even be able spec the race aero for your road car to drive round London.....
I'm sure highly specced cars like that will be in the £100k region but that will be from choice and compares well with the price of equivalents.
V8 GRF said:
julian64 said:
I think if this is TVR's strategy they are in big trouble.
I agree and I disagree with DA that it is.julian64 said:
Your idea that the tough sell is to the enthusiasts and the normal people will pay the increased prices is completely the wrong way round for me.
That's where I believe Tim's thinking is wrong. Yes the easy sell is all of those listed in the post but the ongoing sales in my view are based on Ford's 'Race on Sunday. Sell on Monday' mantra. While there's obviously a burning desire in Les (and others) to go racing and to be the new Dave Richards it's still going to be based on the solid business ground that racing sells, if you market that success and excitement well.It's no co-incidence that the success of the original Tuscan Challenge mirrored the greatest sales period of TVR. The ability to buy a car that looks a whole lot like the one you saw on Sunday or at Le Mans appeals to a great number of folk, and a good many of them will not be dyed-in-the wool TVR fans. Reading the Autocar article emphasises that when Les says you will even be able spec the race aero for your road car to drive round London.....
I'm sure highly specced cars like that will be in the £100k region but that will be from choice and compares well with the price of equivalents.
It's saying that what they are doing now is setting up for that.
They've got 250 buyers from our small group and while some will drop out when they see the car or are told the deposit is about to switch to non refundable, if the car is good then they'll be replaced and there's probably another couple of hundred of us to soak up the 2018 allocation. But beyond that they must source clients from elsewhere. Of course the racing will be part of that. And all that time they will be wanting to increase the price and they will catagorically do that as much and as fast as their sales success allows.
If that wasn't their plan then they would have already registered as a charity.
I was disagreeing with your assertion that they will need to bump the price of the car up as the pool of potential purchasers will be smaller. I don't see that they will need to be moving upmarket as the buyers will be there.
I'm saying that the racing from the new Tuscan Challenge and being seen at Le-Mans will pull back many enthusiasts who don't want a Nissan that virtually drives itself and want to hark back to the good old days of changing gear via a mechanical lever and get the tingle of excitement knowing they they're actually driving the thing...
I'm saying that the racing from the new Tuscan Challenge and being seen at Le-Mans will pull back many enthusiasts who don't want a Nissan that virtually drives itself and want to hark back to the good old days of changing gear via a mechanical lever and get the tingle of excitement knowing they they're actually driving the thing...
V8 GRF said:
I was disagreeing with your assertion that they will need to bump the price of the car up as the pool of potential purchasers will be smaller. I don't see that they will need to be moving upmarket as the buyers will be there.
I'm saying that the racing from the new Tuscan Challenge and being seen at Le-Mans will pull back many enthusiasts who don't want a Nissan that virtually drives itself and want to hark back to the good old days of changing gear via a mechanical lever and get the tingle of excitement knowing they they're actually driving the thing...
Ah, ok. That wasn't what I was saying at all. Or meaning. I'm saying that the racing from the new Tuscan Challenge and being seen at Le-Mans will pull back many enthusiasts who don't want a Nissan that virtually drives itself and want to hark back to the good old days of changing gear via a mechanical lever and get the tingle of excitement knowing they they're actually driving the thing...
They will be pushing the price up because they are in business to make money. Prices will rise as rapidly as demand will permit them.
What I was saying is that after this initial demand from us enthusiasts to maintain momentum and grow they need to create even greater demand from those who aren't currently owners/enthusiasts.
That group is obviously massive but they need to be very smart to ensure the product is desirable to them and I think that bringing in brands such as Cosworth, Murray and Le Mans are clear signs that they understand this and have already moved to nip in the bud what many journos would have loved to have an easy pop at but now can't because they'd look a little silly doing so.
I wasn't implying that sales vika would be lower so they'd need to increase price to compensate, rather the opposite.
I think they will try and slightly undercut the price of a 911 carrera s. Thats about £85K currently. This I guess will be the car that the press will compare it to. The 911 is remarkably rapid these days. But I suspect the new TVR will out accelerate it and hopefully not be too far away in the corners.
But as above the 911 is normally spec'd up pushing the price to 90K or more. I suspect that TVR will track the price of the 911 (which is bound to be over 90K in a couple of years)
But as above the 911 is normally spec'd up pushing the price to 90K or more. I suspect that TVR will track the price of the 911 (which is bound to be over 90K in a couple of years)
Edited by Gazzab on Friday 9th October 18:33
How do the ph massive think the new company will cope when the 5k deposit (it's refundable so we'll take punt for bragging rights) folk pull out when the cars are more expensive than expected, don't look like they expected, don't perform like they expected and it's time to step up and place money where mouth is?
HarryW said:
In all of this where are we saying TVR's targetted niche is, I still see it as the Evora and GT4 segement. I do not think it is amongst the GT3s, 458's and Maccas of this world. I do not think they could draw enough people away from that segment regardless of how good the car is. However I expect in perfomrance terms this where the new TVR will be seen to 'punch above its weight'.
If eventually priced around 80/100k it will be amongst the price of second hand 458s etc.TVRMs said:
How do the ph massive think the new company will cope when the 5k deposit (it's refundable so we'll take punt for bragging rights) folk pull out when the cars are more expensive than expected, don't look like they expected, don't perform like they expected and it's time to step up and place money where mouth is?
If summer testing is next year and car will be ready to sell second half of 2017, following a Le Man entry in 2017, I'd imaging that's a whole year-ish of publicity to build up the demand, with press cars etc.Look at all the talk now, there's a genuine excitement When the new car is revealed in the flesh, is proven to be magnificent, then even if we're not buying new, then old owners have to get behind this.
It's a genuine exciting time for all TVR owners. Promotion of the old cars is a natural knock on plus new models to come into the secondhand market.
Worse case scenario half the people with deposits drop out. They said a year to deliver the first 300 so they've over 6 months to find new buyers for the first run.
When have TVR's not been bought with the heart? I don't think they'll have an issue.
Lotus E300S said:
HarryW said:
In all of this where are we saying TVR's targetted niche is, I still see it as the Evora and GT4 segement. I do not think it is amongst the GT3s, 458's and Maccas of this world. I do not think they could draw enough people away from that segment regardless of how good the car is. However I expect in perfomrance terms this where the new TVR will be seen to 'punch above its weight'.
If eventually priced around 80/100k it will be amongst the price of second hand 458s etc.Of course, TVR will lose all the customers who only buy a TVR because they can't afford the car they really want but the key for TVR will be to ensure that this leaves enough people who want the car for what it actually is rather than because it's cheap.
We just have to hope the thing looks good.
It's effectively going to be a corvette, they run at Leman in gt3... In the states they don't retail for 100k gbp, exchange rate dependent about half that. Jokers do import them and retail them here for 80k so that should give us a reasonable idea. Although granted its left hand drive.
Again your going to have to be a complete tvr nut to pay 80k for a car with a 7k gbp crate engine.
Strangely this corvette has some similar lines to the drawings of the new tvr floated last year. Be interesting to see what this sells for in gbp http://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-americancars/ca...
Again your going to have to be a complete tvr nut to pay 80k for a car with a 7k gbp crate engine.
Strangely this corvette has some similar lines to the drawings of the new tvr floated last year. Be interesting to see what this sells for in gbp http://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-americancars/ca...
Edited by m4tti on Saturday 10th October 09:21
What makes a TVR a TVR? In this case, it's a badge, nothing else.
I' m a TVR fan that's been around the marque for a while and even owned a few, but nothing about this new car and its forecast arrival stirs emotion and its that lack of emotion that makes me feel so cynical about the whole circus.
Am I alone??
Deflated of Yorkshire.
I' m a TVR fan that's been around the marque for a while and even owned a few, but nothing about this new car and its forecast arrival stirs emotion and its that lack of emotion that makes me feel so cynical about the whole circus.
Am I alone??
Deflated of Yorkshire.
Gassing Station | General TVR Stuff & Gossip | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff