AutoCar - New TVR V8 first dyno test

[so called]

TVRMs said:

What makes a TVR a TVR? In this case, it's a badge, nothing else.

I' m a TVR fan that's been around the marque for a while and even owned a few, but nothing about this new car and its forecast arrival stirs emotion and its that lack of emotion that makes me feel so cynical about the whole circus.

Am I alone??

Deflated of Yorkshire.

I'm looking forward to seeing the first cars.
Until then I have a strange numb feeling.

I was sad to see them close back in 2006, as most of us were.
As far as the new car not being a real TVR, I'm from Crewe. I was sad when RR left town and I don't admire RR like I used to but that's probably because my admiration contained a sense of pride that they were from my home town.
Because of that I feel Blackpool folk

If the factory is Brighton or somewhere.
Dose it matter to me where the new TVR is from?
Will swapping the flashy Blackpool image for the GPP of Brighton matter?

[dvs_dave]

Lotus E300S said:

HarryW said:

In all of this where are we saying TVR's targetted niche is, I still see it as the Evora and GT4 segement. I do not think it is amongst the GT3s, 458's and Maccas of this world. I do not think they could draw enough people away from that segment regardless of how good the car is. However I expect in perfomrance terms this where the new TVR will be seen to 'punch above its weight'.

If eventually priced around 80/100k it will be amongst the price of second hand 458s etc.

And the running costs will be directly comparable? Ha!

A new 488 is the same price as a secondhand Carrera GT or Merc SLR, or Ferrari F12, or Aventador, or whatever. Same argument, just as silly as the new vs used always will be.

[m4tti]

dvs_dave said:

And the running costs will be directly comparable? Ha!

A new 488 is the same price as a secondhand Carrera GT or Merc SLR, or Ferrari F12, or Aventador, or whatever. Same argument, just as silly as the new vs used always will be.

Unfortunately it's very relevant now, as the facility to extend a manufacturers warranty on such cars exist, making running costs far more predictable, effectively meaning all you will need to expense on the 458/gallardo/r8 v10/merc sls is servicing. Add to that, that the depreciation of these cars will be significantly lower than the new tvr and these cars are utterly incomparable apart from price as they don't have ford crate engines... So at 100k, with warranty the new versus old is a no brainer and a weak argument.. You'd by the mp12/458... Every time.

And I'm not sure what the running cost argument is if the car retails at 100k.. You'll probably be able to afford it. ... So let's shelve that and keep it real...

Edited by m4tti on Saturday 10th October 20:58

Edited by m4tti on Saturday 10th October 23:28

[dvs_dave]

Depends if you're happy driving around in a yesteryear mainstream supercar or not. Outside of classics, most moneybags type people aren't.

And just because you can afford to drop 100 grand on a car, new or used, doesn't mean you'll be flippant that it's costing you another 15+ grand a year out of pocket just to keep it on the road. At the very least, it's bloody annoying!

[Lotus E300S]

m4tti said:

Unfortunately it's very relevant now, as the facility to extend a manufacturers warranty on such cars exist, making running costs far more predictable, effectively meaning all you will need to expense on the 458/gallardo/r8 v10/merc sls is servicing. Add to that, that the depreciation of these cars will be significantly lower than the new tvr and these cars are utterly incomparable apart from price as they don't have ford crate engines... So at 100k, with warranty the new versus old is a no brainer and a weak argument.. You'd by the mp12/458... Every time.

And I'm not sure what the running cost argument is if the car retails at 100k.. You'll probably be able to afford it. ... So let's shelve that and keep it real...

Edited by m4tti on Saturday 10th October 20:58

Edited by m4tti on Saturday 10th October 23:28

Plus costs of running a Ferrari etc aren't that much more than my 10 year old Sagaris.

Edited by Lotus E300S on Sunday 11th October 07:32

[m4tti]

dvs_dave said:

Depends if you're happy driving around in a yesteryear mainstream supercar or not. Outside of classics, most moneybags type people aren't.

And just because you can afford to drop 100 grand on a car, new or used, doesn't mean you'll be flippant that it's costing you another 15+ grand a year out of pocket just to keep it on the road. At the very least, it's bloody annoying!

Hmm used mp12c or ford coyote engined new tvr... Wrap me a mclaren Dave

[m4tti]

Lotus E300S said:

Plus costs of running a Ferrari etc aren't that much more than my 10 year old Sagaris.

Edited by Lotus E300S on Sunday 11th October 07:32

That's because your having your pants pulled down by folk riding the mythical speed six legend of complexity.

[NightDriver]

All the time people are still paying £60k plus for a used Sagaris rather than £60k on a used Ferrari means that argument is rubbish.

Some people don't actually like Ferrari's, Lambo's etc but do like the idea of something a bit quirky, rare and British!

For what I spent on my Aston, I could have instead got a used Ferrari... a used Ferrari would be seen by many to be a better car in most aspects (let's ignore the fact modern Ferrari's still actually aren't that great in terms of quality/reliability!).

But I don't like Ferraris. I am however looking forward to the new TVR! I'm sure I'm not the only person in the world with this view!

[drlloyd]

Agreed. Why are all these so-called TVR enthusiasts trying to unfavourably compare the future TVR to other existing cars? We haven't even seen the car yet! Don't forget that it is partially designed by Gordon Murray (like an older world-beating McLaren) and built with a crate V8 (like an Aston Martin). Ferrari's and Porsche's are too nouveaux-riche for my taste, and not British. Show some support or go to the appropriate forum for your car of choice!

[Lotus E300S]

Will be great to see all this support when it comes down to paying your 80k

[Transmitter Man]

V8 GRF said:

Just go back and read all the things Les has said about 'giant killing' & 200+ mph to name just 2 and I'd say you need more than 500bhp to deliver that sort of performance he alluding to.

Not sure about that David: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrari_F40

Phil

[NightDriver]

Lotus E300S said:

Will be great to see all this support when it comes down to paying your 80k

If it comes in at or near £80k I think it'll do well. You can't buy a V8 Jag for under £90k, and it's a bloody boring car anyway. Same for the V8 vantage. Granted you can get a corvette for around £70k, but that'll be left hand drive and too American for me.

I'd never look twice at a Porsche so if TVR keep close to the old recipe of big power, good looks and being a little different then it'll sell. Certainly at the volumes they need.

I've been waiting for someone to fill the gap between lotus and the rest of the market. TVR can do that I hope!

[m4tti]

That's taking a very simplistic view of the market, it's participants and all its facets. The used market and the 5 to 7 year old super cars that occupy it are a huge threat from a positioning perspective. Let's hope that the tvr sales man can turn up the gas on the objection handling front as 80k gets you a reasonably new r8 v10, and with a little bit more an army trix titanium exhaust to give it an f1 sound.

This is one of the points I've been labouring. In this sector you simply can't just consider the new market.

I'm fascinated by the business model and how it will pan out. But I'm afraid at projected prices a ford coyote just doesn't hit the spot. They should have brokered an exclusive deal on the vodoo. I understand ford doesn't want to release them for at least two years as a crate engine.

And the aston Martin crate engine argument isn't the same... Amg produce collosal engines out the box.

[Gazzab]

The 2nd hand option is simply that, an option.
I wouldn't buy a new F type v8 when I could have a 2nd Audi R8 v10.
But I wouldn't buy a 2nd hand Audi r8 v10 when I could have a new Tvr (assuming the new tvr ticks all the boxes).

[m4tti]

Precisely. It's a very personal thing. Being hands on I appreciate top tier engineering. To me th v10 of the Audi provides that. The mustang engine doesn't. And that's where they'll need to understand how much of market of TVR lovers like your self vs those who appreciate engineering comes in.

I didn't like the river v8 tvrs. I liked the drone of the speed six or the ajp v8. The hollow sound of a flat crank Ferrari v8.. But their not going to have that distinction with the ford unit.

[HarryW]

Whereas I don't mind the starting point being the Coyote, it's a good base engine, even the Vodoo flat plane version uses it as its starting point. I do though expect Cosworth to add some quantifiable value to it and I am really looking forward to understanding what they've done and what the results are.
Reading that previous article about the development of the Coyote was interesting and helps in understanding why starting from scratch is not the best option for TVR at this stage. If you recall even the AJP8 was horrendously unreliable when first launched, most recall the speed 6 issues but not necessarily the 8. IMHO There is no way a relaunched TVR would be a success and or affordable if it started from scratch with its own engine.

[m4tti]

Correct in the modular platform the voodoo could and should fit the car as it should share mounting points. But this is a crate engine on the special side AMG, it doesn't need to start from scratch. .. http://youtu.be/403MeBmkz0M

Proof is in the units sold...

Edited by m4tti on Sunday 11th October 22:24

[Gazzab]

But the tvr is being built to a relatively low price and so the ford engine gives them a great bang for the buck plus it's good for moon and back mileage and with the cosworth badge it gets greater credibility. I think it's a great choice.

[DonkeyApple]

m4tti said:

That's taking a very simplistic view of the market, it's participants and all its facets. The used market and the 5 to 7 year old super cars that occupy it are a huge threat from a positioning perspective. Let's hope that the tvr sales man can turn up the gas on the objection handling front as 80k gets you a reasonably new r8 v10, and with a little bit more an army trix titanium exhaust to give it an f1 sound.

This is one of the points I've been labouring. In this sector you simply can't just consider the new market.

I'm fascinated by the business model and how it will pan out. But I'm afraid at projected prices a ford coyote just doesn't hit the spot. They should have brokered an exclusive deal on the vodoo. I understand ford doesn't want to release them for at least two years as a crate engine.

And the aston Martin crate engine argument isn't the same... Amg produce collosal engines out the box.

I understand and agree. But personally I can't even begin to fathom why anyone would buy an R8. It's a tt wagon.

As for Porsche, I'm not in my 20's, someone's wife or a middle office clerical worker so non of their sportscar products have any appeal to me.

And my serviette rests on my lap when I eat so I'm wholly unsuitable for a Ferrari.

If I want a Merc I'll log in to Uber.

I'm too young for an Aston or Jag. But sensible choices for pensioners.

And I've had more than one girlfriend and non of them looked like Pug from the Beano so that rules out Lotus.

Of course, there will be people who only bought TVRs because they couldn't afford what they really wanted so at the £80k+ level some people may prefer to drive a Minicab or a knackered Monaco tt Cabinet but hopefully there will be enough people who look at the new TVR and choose that. Personally I think it is going to all ride on how it looks as what's under that skin seems to be well under control. I don't see an issue with the Ford engine. The marketing will be all Cosworth. If it had been an LS then I'd agree with you that they'd never sell them anywhere near that price or in numbers but both Ford and Cosworth have very serious and long standing British and global Motorsport pedigrees.

And seeing as some of those diesel utility boxes that Leslie from Accounts clog up our roads with cost more than £80k then clearly it's just not a lot of money once it's all nearly packed into weekly installments by BriteHouse.

Edited by DonkeyApple on Monday 12th October 07:54

[Byker28i]

Currently wearing my "TVR - because Porsche are for girls" t-shirt