AutoCar - New TVR V8 first dyno test

[chris watton]

DonkeyApple said:

I'm sure anything can be broken into etc if there is enough profit to justify it etc.

But if TVR are selling a few hundred cars a year and those cars are under warranty for a year or two and if the factory offers upgrades also then just how many owners will there be who will want third party upgrades and how much cheaper will those upgrades have to be to compete?

Maybe in years to come when the second or third owners of the cars have paid a third of the original price for them they will look for cheaper or more extreme tuning options aaa from the factory?

If TVR are selling say 250 cars a year and offer their own upgrades just how many buyers of £70k+ brand new cars are going to ditch their factory warranty when the factory will offer upgrades?

Someone mentioned that the aftermarket tuner would simply offer to replace the factory warranty with their own. Even if a few people were swung by that would those using finance be able to willingly void the factory warranty? I don't know how the finance works but I would have thought that as the car is the collateral then any act that damages residualsbloke voiding the warranty would be prohibited?

Even if not, which tuner is going to invest in either designing or importing upgrades when the potential customer base is so tiny?

Last time around TVR comprehensively failed to capitalise on the upgrades revenue and as a result, tuners had a free run at the market with absolutely no competition or argument from the factory. But the upgrades revenue that probably had more profit per car in the end than the actual sale of the car. I suspect their accountants know just how important this secondary income stream will be to the factory and it's network and it will be run very efficiently and protected strongly. It's revenue almost certainly will have formed part of their x year revenue projections.

I think non factory upgrades will only get any modest traction once an awful lot of cars are out of warranty and trading at the kind of prices where tinkerers want in and don't care too much for residuals.

I am sure you're right - back then, around 2002-2006, the biggest 'upgrades' most did with the S6 cars was nothing more than changing the rear silencer/s and stereo head unit.

[julianc]

Byker28i said:

julianc said:

You're not alone. TVR for me is a Blackpool Rocket. We visited the factory several times during the build of our Tamora, and I can remember now the emotion and goosebumps during those visits. As good as the new cars may be, this is not an evolution of the marque that continues its history: this is a revolution, starting almost from a blank sheet of paper, and you could stick a Marcos (or anything else) badge on the new cars and I would still not have the emotion I felt visiting the factory. No doubt I will look at the new cars, admire them, have a smile on my face because I'm a petrolhead and fed up with Euroboxes, but the new TVR won't stir my emotion as much as the old TVRs.

Go back a few years i bet the same was said when the speed 6 models came out, tuscan, sagaris etc,
Probably had the dsame said when the wedges cames out, in fact probably the same old moaners saying "Ergh change, it's not like the old one I have...!" every time there was a change.

So am I in the 'old moaners' category, and is this because I talk about emotion being more closely linked to 'evolution' (which applies to what you've referred to above), rather than 'revolution', which is what is happening now?

I did say I would admire the new TVRs and smile when I see them. Emotion about TVRs is a personal thing, so I object to anyone (not necessarily you) implying or otherwise that I am 'wrong'.

[julian64]

Well I'm an old moaner and proud of it .

Everything before the Cerbera was a kit car. Everything after the sag will be a kit car.

A TVR should have its own engine, distinct to the point where its not in any other car, and you can tell its a TVR before you look around to see what it is.

Having cosworth mess with a ford engine is the only thing saving the car from eurobox kit oblivion for me. That won't even stand if it ends up as a standard ford with a frilly dress and high heels.

[DonkeyApple]

julian64 said:

Well I'm an old moaner and proud of it .

Everything before the Cerbera was a kit car. Everything after the sag will be a kit car.

A TVR should have its own engine, distinct to the point where its not in any other car, and you can tell its a TVR before you look around to see what it is.

Having cosworth mess with a ford engine is the only thing saving the car from eurobox kit oblivion for me. That won't even stand if it ends up as a standard ford with a frilly dress and high heels.

I understand what you are saying but quite a few cars use other company's engines nowadays. Maserati, Lotus, Land Rover and Aston have for years. I think the cost today of meeting legislation and development etc have skewed the picture.

Back in the day it was also quite common with firms like Healy using Jag and also Lotus engines or Jensen using US ones.

I don't think you can really label a Healy a kit car because it has a Jag engine or a modern Maserati one because it has a Fiat engine etc.

I think to be a kitcar you really need to talking about offsite construction rather than basing it on where the engine has come from.

[Incognegro]

Agree with above but at 32 I would like to think I'm a fairly young moaner (just).

After seeing the vid I'm less excited than I was which wasn't loads anyway. I'm hoping Doms 4.7 can punch harder than this (if he picked up his phone recently would be nice ;P also after being taken for a ride in Paul Blacks LS9 Sag (OMG face distorting, stomach turning, bum hole dropping!)... if i wasn't such an S6 die hard, confident in Powers builds and wanted a V8 then I think id put an LS7/9 instead of this cosworth) as they both effectively make the true TVR name a kit car without its true soul.

I hope you guys get my point

[cerb4.5lee]

julian64 said:

Having cosworth mess with a ford engine is the only thing saving the car from eurobox kit oblivion for me. That won't even stand if it ends up as a standard ford with a frilly dress and high heels.

I would rather it use a Ford engine and the company survive, rather than go down the route of building their own engines and the company go down the toilet again.

As a pipe dream I get what you are saying around them having their own engines but that didn't work last time so it would be foolish I think to try it again.

[Vixpy1]

Transmitter Man said:

Locked ECU or not I'm sure it'll not be too long until third party tuners come out to play: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-NZIOIhUiU

Phil

Thats been converted to port injection

[macdeb]

cerb4.5lee said:

I would rather it use a Ford engine and the company survive, rather than go down the route of building their own engines and the company go down the toilet again.

As a pipe dream I get what you are saying around them having their own engines but that didn't work last time so it would be foolish I think to try it again.

They've been there, done that, don't want to do it again.

[nawarne]

So, am I right in saying that the AC Cobra...GT40 are nothing more than kit cars because they had a Ford crate engine and were designed and built by a small team in a workshop?

I do believe that the Cobras did have development by the recognised Ford V8 tuners of the day....sounds remarkably like the TVR connection with Cosworth.

And current values of the above kit cars...hmmm? I wish I could buy either of those for £100K.

Even the first Griffith - Tuscan now commands a lot of respect on the track. Witness the Jet Petroleum race at S'stone in July - - - where it trounced the 2nd placed E-type by 17 seconds, and the fantastic performance of another Griffith at the Nurburgring O.T race which took 3rd after starting at the back of the grid due to being unable to source correct tyres. Oh yes, it was of course up against another kit-car, a Bizzarini which also had a Ford crate engine.

Nick

[wanacoop]

julian64 said:

Well I'm an old moaner and proud of it .

Everything before the Cerbera was a kit car. Everything after the sag will be a kit car.

A TVR should have its own engine, distinct to the point where its not in any other car, and you can tell its a TVR before you look around to see what it is.

Having cosworth mess with a ford engine is the only thing saving the car from eurobox kit oblivion for me. That won't even stand if it ends up as a standard ford with a frilly dress and high heels.

So if you own a TVR pre Cerbera, you shouldn't consider it a 'real' TVR? just a kit car.....

[FarmyardPants]

I think the engine is the least of their worries (or our worries, as customers).

A much bigger issue is the styling, which is all too easy to fk up. I reckon they will stay close to existing designs to lessen the chance of getting it badly wrong. But if they're making it out of metal it's going to be tricky to form the trademark sweeping curves. Sorry I'm rambling and probably in the wrong thread

[HarryW]

Vixpy1 said:

Transmitter Man said:

Locked ECU or not I'm sure it'll not be too long until third party tuners come out to play: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-NZIOIhUiU

Phil

Thats been converted to port injection

They also use what looks like a straight 6" of pipe for the start of headers, which isn't easy to implement in the tighter packaging of a road car. That alone will be a double digit increase in the curves.
Be good to know if the internals are standard, a known weak point of the standard build is the rods.

[N7GTX]

I've stayed off this thread as I will never be able to buy the new car like most TVR owners I imagine. But it got me thinking about the 'new company' versus Blackpool and the fears of some who are not yet convinced.

I bet the same comments and thoughts were bandied about when Aston went under for the 6th or 7th time and were rescued by Ford - no DNA there. Can you imagine the die-hard old school, with their checked open neck shirts, cravats and red trousers in their DB 4s, 5s or 6s (Aston's own engine) along with the V8 (another in-house engine) brigade when Ford decided to put a Jaguar engine (heaven forbid) in the 'new' car. This is not cricket old boy.
Yet Ford used Cosworth to redesign the 3.2 Jag engine (most parts are not interchangeable) and fit the supercharger. This was fitted in one of the best looking cars ever - DB7 - and became, at the time and until very recently I think, the biggest selling model Aston ever produced and saved the company in the 90s.

This seems to me to be very similar to TVR. In-house engines became too expensive so a good alternative was found and breathed on by Cosworth. Fitted in a beautiful body and resulted in a winning formula (sound familiar?).

If 'new' TVR can produce a winning body that schoolboys will adorn their bedroom walls with, then why not start the new era with a tried and tested engine, breathed on by the very same company as Aston did, that can produce the required performance? Forget Blackpool, DNA, AJP etc, those days are in the past just like Aston's DB4s, 5s, 6s and V8s but the name and the company live on. Surely that's what matters?

[Milky400]

And let's hope the Tuscan values increase like the DB4's have

[julian64]

wanacoop said:

So if you own a TVR pre Cerbera, you shouldn't consider it a 'real' TVR? just a kit car.....

Yep they are all Kit cars. Mind you I like kit cars, I have some. But the first time TVR became better than all the other car manufacturers using bolt in engines was when they designed and used their own.

I suppose I'm slightly different to most on this thread whereby TVR survival at all costs isn't my thing. For me you have to deserve to pick up the TVR logo from peter wheeler, not just buy it and paste it on anything.

It has to be the car equivalent of a litre sportsbike with two fingers in the air. You have to love it or hate it, but if you think 'meh', it isn't a TVR. Using a bolt in engine is a long way to saying 'meh'.

Maybe TVRs should bankrupt the company.

[Byker28i]

julian64 said:

Yep they are all Kit cars. Mind you I like kit cars, I have some. But the first time TVR became better than all the other car manufacturers using bolt in engines was when they designed and used their own.

I suppose I'm slightly different to most on this thread whereby TVR survival at all costs isn't my thing. For me you have to deserve to pick up the TVR logo from peter wheeler, not just buy it and paste it on anything.

It has to be the car equivalent of a litre sportsbike with two fingers in the air. You have to love it or hate it, but if you think 'meh', it isn't a TVR. Using a bolt in engine is a long way to saying 'meh'.

Maybe TVRs should bankrupt the company.

Speaking as another cerbera owner, sorry but that comes over as elitist and conceited.
TV's always used other engines, slightly changed, Rover V8's, Ford 2.8i's etc, none of these are any lesser models, neither should they be seen as such. Having recently followed a S model chasing down a modern porsche through welsh twisties, these different models are equally as capable and worthy.

It's not about an engine, that's one of the minor parts, its the whole experience, the joy of driving, the way it goes, the sound, the looks you get, the other owners, the fact they can raise a smile just looking at it in the garage.

That's what needs to be captured in the new model.

[Munter]

julian64 said:

Using a bolt in engine is a long way to saying 'meh'.

How far do you take that.

Using bought in pistons rather than making their own? Using "off the shelf" carpet material and sound deadening?

Which TVR employee designed the Speed6? Because if it wasn't drawn and made from scratch by TVR employees, doesn't that just make it an engine created elsewhere and bolted into a TVR, same as this new V8?

[V8 GRF]

Peter Wheeler was the man responsible for TVR going bankrupt.

He was the one responsible for building his own engine yes, but he was also responsible for building it as cheaply as possible with chocolate parts. Then when rebuilds came in it was he that decreed only replacing the parts that had failed, not all of them, which is why early engines had several rebuilds.
He then bled the company dry of cash and sold it to a spotty 'yoof with a sack full of roubles who he stitched up big time. The losses and stock write down figures required before the Russian took over are eye-watering. Yes the Russian closed the company and he was an idiot to have been rushed into the purchase without proper due diligence and his management 'style' was diabolical but he poured cash into the place and kept it going for another two years which Peter Wheeler wouldn't have.

TVR's most productive and successful period(s) was/were when they used 'bolt-in engines' most notably the RV8 and even earlier from a small British company called Cosworth.

The Speed 6 was a mistake from the beginning and was one man's vanity project, because he could, not because he should. The vanity element is proven because he even had the design changed because his ego clashed with the one from Rochdale and he didn't want to pay him any royalties. That's probably one of the reasons the canned the AJP as well, that's not a sound business decision.

So as mentioned above plenty of companies have risen from the ashes without much if any continuity and just because these aren't going to be built in a seaside town with few local skills is irrelevant and a good business decision.

Yes 'The Blackpool Cars' will always be classics in the same way as the 'The Newport Pagnell Cars' are for another manufacturer but their move to a more suitable location hasn't done them any harm...... Lets hope the value of our Blackpool cars go the same way because of the interest generated by the new car.

[5.0ltr]

^^^^ what he said .

[anonymous-user]

V8 GRF said:

Peter Wheeler was the man responsible for TVR going bankrupt.

He was the one responsible for building his own engine yes, but he was also responsible for building it as cheaply as possible with chocolate parts. Then when rebuilds came in it was he that decreed only replacing the parts that had failed, not all of them, which is why early engines had several rebuilds.
He then bled the company dry of cash and sold it to a spotty 'yoof with a sack full of roubles who he stitched up big time. The losses and stock write down figures required before the Russian took over are eye-watering. Yes the Russian closed the company and he was an idiot to have been rushed into the purchase without proper due diligence and his management 'style' was diabolical but he poured cash into the place and kept it going for another two years which Peter Wheeler wouldn't have.

TVR's most productive and successful period(s) was/were when they used 'bolt-in engines' most notably the RV8 and even earlier from a small British company called Cosworth.

The Speed 6 was a mistake from the beginning and was one man's vanity project, because he could, not because he should. The vanity element is proven because he even had the design changed because his ego clashed with the one from Rochdale and he didn't want to pay him any royalties. That's probably one of the reasons the canned the AJP as well, that's not a sound business decision.

So as mentioned above plenty of companies have risen from the ashes without much if any continuity and just because these aren't going to be built in a seaside town with few local skills is irrelevant and a good business decision.

Yes 'The Blackpool Cars' will always be classics in the same way as the 'The Newport Pagnell Cars' are for another manufacturer but their move to a more suitable location hasn't done them any harm...... Lets hope the value of our Blackpool cars go the same way because of the interest generated by the new car.

Very harsh David, but it's an opinion.

I would start with TVR had been facing bankruptcy for 60 years. Peter was not in charge when it happened, it's dead now but another British Sportscar manufacturer is going to use the badge on their car. How long will they last and will they put their companies name on a world stage on the way PRW did?