AutoCar - New TVR V8 first dyno test
Discussion
I don't think the engine is the problem, the Griffith and Chimaera sold very well with their RV8 power plants.
If there is going to be a problem, I think it will be the fact that, back then, 20 years' ago, the disparity in performance between the (then new) TVR's and other cars was huge.
Nowadays, it isn't, it's more of a level playing field.
If there is going to be a problem, I think it will be the fact that, back then, 20 years' ago, the disparity in performance between the (then new) TVR's and other cars was huge.
Nowadays, it isn't, it's more of a level playing field.
TVRMs said:
V8 GRF said:
What I said
Very harsh David, but it's an opinion.I would start with TVR had been facing bankruptcy for 60 years. Peter was not in charge when it happened, it's dead now but another British Sportscar manufacturer is going to use the badge on their car. How long will they last and will they put their companies name on a world stage on the way PRW did?
I'd suggest that with a clean slate but with the ethos of TVR firmly in mind this (re)incarnation of TVR probably has one of the best chances of really hitting the Global stage rather than just Europe....
Time will tell but I still don't understand all the naysayers forecasting doom and gloom on here before we've even seen anything especially with the measured business minded approach the current owners are taking.
chris watton said:
I don't think the engine is the problem, the Griffith and Chimaera sold very well with their RV8 power plants.
If there is going to be a problem, I think it will be the fact that, back then, 20 years' ago, the disparity in performance between the (then new) TVR's and other cars was huge.
Nowadays, it isn't, it's more of a level playing field.
Yup. It's not going to be half the price of stuff that it's quicker than and I think that's why the 90s model was of its time and that time has gone. Even then, though, as soon as mainstream competition appeared with neck and pile warmers, electric roofs, flashier badges for the golf club and loaded up with handling aids TVR sales began slipping away. I think that potentially shows that it wasn't just down to bang for buck performance but a lack of credible competition and the fact that most people are seemingly willing to pay more money for something that is slower and more common but much more practical. If there is going to be a problem, I think it will be the fact that, back then, 20 years' ago, the disparity in performance between the (then new) TVR's and other cars was huge.
Nowadays, it isn't, it's more of a level playing field.
I can't see this car being bought by people who really want something else but can't afford it. I think the price indicates that it will be bought by people who specifically want that product over the mainstream offerings. That probably means much lower sales figures than back at the 90s peak?
Today I suspect that TVR will have to incorporate quite a few of these mod cons as options anyway as many of these features are so common today that the buying public not only expect them but almost are unable to imagine a car without them.
In terms of where a TVR today can sit in the market place, it's not the cheap, high performance niche but probably a niche more associated with people who would like a modern interpretation of a classic car. Modern performance, modern running etc but in a package that gives a sense of motoring of a recently bygone era. Not as much as a Morgan but more in that direction than say trying to deliver something ultra modern to compete directly against all the brand new mid engined, launch controlled, auto gearbox spaceships of the mainstream builders.
I suspect that when we finally see how it looks it might tell us where in the market place the owners see the car fitting but with a NA V8, manual box and paired down interior my guess is that they are aiming for people who like the idea of and have the money and space for a classic car but prefer the concept in a modern package and interpretation.
Deep down I suspect how it looks inside and out will determine whether this project is a success or not. Underneath, from the news we have been given to date, it already seems to tick all the right boxes.
V8 GRF said:
Yes harsh but the Russian was the one who took the blame for what came before and PW came up smelling of roses. Maybe better management of NS's part could have turned it around but people also forget/ignore Smolenski built ALL the production Sagari and that's widely regarded as one of the best TVRs ever..... so go figure that one.
I agree your post was harsh, but it wasn't without merit. I have long held the opinion that Wheeler stitched up Smolenski, or rather he (PW) didn't look a gift horse in the mouth. However, the design work of the Sagaris was all done under Peter Wheeler. Smolenski may have been in charge when it was produced, but it was definitely a Wheeler-era car.
The b
ks about Smolenski "filling in" the slats on the Sagaris as a "quality control" thing was complete guff. The real reason was that it took 8 man hours to cut out the slats, and they saved 8 man hours of labour costs by not doing it, then applied a layer of spin to make it sound like this was a positive thing. 
DonkeyApple said:
Yup. It's not going to be half the price of stuff that it's quicker than and I think that's why the 90s model was of its time and that time has gone. Even then, though, as soon as mainstream competition appeared with neck and pile warmers, electric roofs, flashier badges for the golf club and loaded up with handling aids TVR sales began slipping away. I think that potentially shows that it wasn't just down to bang for buck performance but a lack of credible competition and the fact that most people are seemingly willing to pay more money for something that is slower and more common but much more practical.
Indeed. Back in the Golden Age of the 90's, your choices between a TVR and a near competitor was either twice the price (or more) for the same performance as a TVR, or half the performance (or less) for the same price as a TVR. Those days are gone. DonkeyApple said:
Today I suspect that TVR will have to incorporate quite a few of these mod cons as options anyway as many of these features are so common today that the buying public not only expect them but almost are unable to imagine a car without them.
I agree. Many drivers these days would not be able to comprehend a lack of ABS and traction control, sadly. It'll probably have to have an airbag too. JonRB said:
DonkeyApple said:
Yup. It's not going to be half the price of stuff that it's quicker than and I think that's why the 90s model was of its time and that time has gone. Even then, though, as soon as mainstream competition appeared with neck and pile warmers, electric roofs, flashier badges for the golf club and loaded up with handling aids TVR sales began slipping away. I think that potentially shows that it wasn't just down to bang for buck performance but a lack of credible competition and the fact that most people are seemingly willing to pay more money for something that is slower and more common but much more practical.
Indeed. Back in the Golden Age of the 90's, your choices between a TVR and a near competitor was either twice the price (or more) for the same performance as a TVR, or half the performance (or less) for the same price as a TVR. Those days are gone. DonkeyApple said:
Today I suspect that TVR will have to incorporate quite a few of these mod cons as options anyway as many of these features are so common today that the buying public not only expect them but almost are unable to imagine a car without them.
I agree. Many drivers these days would not be able to comprehend a lack of ABS and traction control, sadly. It'll probably have to have an airbag too. Les confirmed the car would have ABS, TC and airbags at the Neil Garner event as I've reported in this month's Sprint.
Re the slats yes I think it's common knowledge the slats where left filled in for cost reasons but a lot of development work was also done during NS's tenure. Regardless it's NS's money that allowed the handful to appear....
V8 GRF said:
The Speed 6 was a mistake from the beginning and was one man's vanity project, because he could, not because he should. The vanity element is proven because he even had the design changed because his ego clashed with the one from Rochdale and he didn't want to pay him any royalties. That's probably one of the reasons the canned the AJP as well, that's not a sound business decision.
Dave, you're just jealous because you don't have a Speed Six.
JonRB said:
V8 GRF said:
Yes harsh but the Russian was the one who took the blame for what came before and PW came up smelling of roses. Maybe better management of NS's part could have turned it around but people also forget/ignore Smolenski built ALL the production Sagari and that's widely regarded as one of the best TVRs ever..... so go figure that one.
I agree your post was harsh, but it wasn't without merit. I have long held the opinion that Wheeler stitched up Smolenski, or rather he (PW) didn't look a gift horse in the mouth. However, the design work of the Sagaris was all done under Peter Wheeler. Smolenski may have been in charge when it was produced, but it was definitely a Wheeler-era car.
The b
ks about Smolenski "filling in" the slats on the Sagaris as a "quality control" thing was complete guff. The real reason was that it took 8 man hours to cut out the slats, and they saved 8 man hours of labour costs by not doing it, then applied a layer of spin to make it sound like this was a positive thing. A respected team of automotive peoples were negotiating purchase of TVR.
Then young Russian comes along and decides he wants to buy the company without doing due diligence (fool and his or somebody else's money are easily parted).
Young Russian's first positive move was to keep the old general at his side for a few years. His first negative move, before the end of the week, was to sack the old general because he realised that the old general was the landlord of the premises he thought he had bought.
He continued to make bad decisions by sacking consultants he employed to give their expert advice when they told him what he didn't want to here. He eventually put the company to the wall with creditors. No one else.
Peter was a shrewd business man, self made and was easily the person with the whip hand in a deal where the prospective purchaser couldn't be bothered to establish what he was buying. Does that mean Peter striped him - not in my eyes.
Maybe if you'd had the chance to get closer to PRW David, you may have had another view on his tenure. Who knows, that may have changed your position when it came to supporting the Rochdale Cowboy and the Russian with such conviction because they took time to speak to you and made you feel important...
Pattern emerging with Mr E.
Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 14th October 12:40
I think there are plenty of stories around that show he was more than astute or canny. He was plenty dodgy and while that worked well for many a year it was one of the things that caught up with him. Luckily for me I was a massive beneficiary of one of his dodgy events, others weren't so fortunate.
And the group of canny investors who were talking to PW weren't offering to buy TVR but rather offering to take it off his hands.
And the group of canny investors who were talking to PW weren't offering to buy TVR but rather offering to take it off his hands.
I wouldn't write off the idea that the new TVR could be near or at he top of the "bhp/tonne/£" list. Maybe not twice the score of the car below it, but if it's 475hp and 1,150Kg, which is at least plausible, that puts it amongst some very expensive machinery - http://www.autosnout.com/Cars-Bhp-Per-Ton-List.php - if you exclude the stripped-down, superlight, track car category.
Byker28i said:
Speaking as another cerbera owner, sorry but that comes over as elitist and conceited.
TV's always used other engines, slightly changed, Rover V8's, Ford 2.8i's etc, none of these are any lesser models, neither should they be seen as such. Having recently followed a S model chasing down a modern porsche through welsh twisties, these different models are equally as capable and worthy.
It's not about an engine, that's one of the minor parts, its the whole experience, the joy of driving, the way it goes, the sound, the looks you get, the other owners, the fact they can raise a smile just looking at it in the garage.
That's what needs to be captured in the new model.
Well, in my defence, elitist was what I was going for. But then its the very nature of an opinion.TV's always used other engines, slightly changed, Rover V8's, Ford 2.8i's etc, none of these are any lesser models, neither should they be seen as such. Having recently followed a S model chasing down a modern porsche through welsh twisties, these different models are equally as capable and worthy.
It's not about an engine, that's one of the minor parts, its the whole experience, the joy of driving, the way it goes, the sound, the looks you get, the other owners, the fact they can raise a smile just looking at it in the garage.
That's what needs to be captured in the new model.
I could give you all the reasons I didn't buy a TVR earlier than the Cerb, but it boils down to the fact that I was running about in a cobra replica kit car with a better engine than the rover, and slightly better put together than the TVR Kit cars. I saw very little reason to change to what looked like an equivalent kit car with a TVR badge. Only IMHO, and I accept its only my opinion.
The Cerb changed all that because it was no longer a comparison to my kit cobra. The engine changed everything for me, and wasn't the minor part you describe.
How all this talk relates to the new TVR is therefore simple. We know nothing about its looks, we know very little about its weight or dynamics.
We only know what engine. The idea of a cosworth engine even if its based on a ford is a step in the right direction because it demonstrates Mr Edgars understanding that the heart of the car should have its own quality.
Not just a engine cover saying cosworth but something unique you can identify with the Brand and something that lifts the brand above kit car manufacturer.
V8 GRF said:
Peter Wheeler was the man responsible for TVR going bankrupt.
He was the one responsible for building his own engine yes, but he was also responsible for building it as cheaply as possible with chocolate parts. Then when rebuilds came in it was he that decreed only replacing the parts that had failed, not all of them, which is why early engines had several rebuilds.
He then bled the company dry of cash and sold it to a spotty 'yoof with a sack full of roubles who he stitched up big time. The losses and stock write down figures required before the Russian took over are eye-watering. Yes the Russian closed the company and he was an idiot to have been rushed into the purchase without proper due diligence and his management 'style' was diabolical but he poured cash into the place and kept it going for another two years which Peter Wheeler wouldn't have.
TVR's most productive and successful period(s) was/were when they used 'bolt-in engines' most notably the RV8 and even earlier from a small British company called Cosworth.
The Speed 6 was a mistake from the beginning and was one man's vanity project, because he could, not because he should. The vanity element is proven because he even had the design changed because his ego clashed with the one from Rochdale and he didn't want to pay him any royalties. That's probably one of the reasons the canned the AJP as well, that's not a sound business decision.
So as mentioned above plenty of companies have risen from the ashes without much if any continuity and just because these aren't going to be built in a seaside town with few local skills is irrelevant and a good business decision.
Yes 'The Blackpool Cars' will always be classics in the same way as the 'The Newport Pagnell Cars' are for another manufacturer but their move to a more suitable location hasn't done them any harm...... Lets hope the value of our Blackpool cars go the same way because of the interest generated by the new car.
Agree with all of that, PW brought lots of exciting cars to the marque which I appreciate but his ego and single mindedness around the home grown engines was his downfall and potential buyers were completely put off by how laughable the Speed 6 and AJP were in terms of robustness/reliability sadly. He was the one responsible for building his own engine yes, but he was also responsible for building it as cheaply as possible with chocolate parts. Then when rebuilds came in it was he that decreed only replacing the parts that had failed, not all of them, which is why early engines had several rebuilds.
He then bled the company dry of cash and sold it to a spotty 'yoof with a sack full of roubles who he stitched up big time. The losses and stock write down figures required before the Russian took over are eye-watering. Yes the Russian closed the company and he was an idiot to have been rushed into the purchase without proper due diligence and his management 'style' was diabolical but he poured cash into the place and kept it going for another two years which Peter Wheeler wouldn't have.
TVR's most productive and successful period(s) was/were when they used 'bolt-in engines' most notably the RV8 and even earlier from a small British company called Cosworth.
The Speed 6 was a mistake from the beginning and was one man's vanity project, because he could, not because he should. The vanity element is proven because he even had the design changed because his ego clashed with the one from Rochdale and he didn't want to pay him any royalties. That's probably one of the reasons the canned the AJP as well, that's not a sound business decision.
So as mentioned above plenty of companies have risen from the ashes without much if any continuity and just because these aren't going to be built in a seaside town with few local skills is irrelevant and a good business decision.
Yes 'The Blackpool Cars' will always be classics in the same way as the 'The Newport Pagnell Cars' are for another manufacturer but their move to a more suitable location hasn't done them any harm...... Lets hope the value of our Blackpool cars go the same way because of the interest generated by the new car.
So most went off and purchased a Porsche of some description or equivalent, so I am just chuffed the marque is coming back and I am excited to see what the future holds for TVR and I wish them the very best for sure.
cerb4.5lee said:
Agree with all of that, PW brought lots of exciting cars to the marque which I appreciate but his ego and single mindedness around the home grown engines was his downfall and potential buyers were completely put off by how laughable the Speed 6 and AJP were in terms of robustness/reliability sadly.
It's somewhat ironic, though, that the Speed6 engine has now evolved into something worthy of his vision. It just shows how it would have benefited from more money, more R&D and more testing. It was a great idea, but I think he bit off more than he could chew with it.JonRB said:
cerb4.5lee said:
Agree with all of that, PW brought lots of exciting cars to the marque which I appreciate but his ego and single mindedness around the home grown engines was his downfall and potential buyers were completely put off by how laughable the Speed 6 and AJP were in terms of robustness/reliability sadly.
It's somewhat ironic, though, that the Speed6 engine has now evolved into something worthy of his vision. It just shows how it would have benefited from more money, more R&D and more testing. It was a great idea, but I think he bit off more than he could chew with it.I feel a tinge of sadness in some ways because in essence it was a very confident and forward thinking idea from PW and in many ways it deserved to be successful.
cerb4.5lee said:
I feel a tinge of sadness in some ways because in essence it was a very confident and forward thinking idea from PW and in many ways it deserved to be successful.
Indeed. If he'd got it right, then TVR would have been hailed as the British Ferrari and he'd have been its Enzo. Sadly it didn't go that way, and the engine will instead be seen as his folly and TVR's millstone. History is a bh sometimes. JonRB said:
cerb4.5lee said:
Agree with all of that, PW brought lots of exciting cars to the marque which I appreciate but his ego and single mindedness around the home grown engines was his downfall and potential buyers were completely put off by how laughable the Speed 6 and AJP were in terms of robustness/reliability sadly.
It's somewhat ironic, though, that the Speed6 engine has now evolved into something worthy of his vision. It just shows how it would have benefited from more money, more R&D and more testing. It was a great idea, but I think he bit off more than he could chew with it.He had a vision and that is what separates the greats from the alsorans but he executed it in the most miserable way possible.
TVRMs said:
Lots of smoke and mirrors around the time that Peter sold the company. The story is understood to go like this.
A respected team of automotive peoples were negotiating purchase of TVR.
Then young Russian comes along and decides he wants to buy the company without doing due diligence (fool and his or somebody else's money are easily parted).
Young Russian's first positive move was to keep the old general at his side for a few years. His first negative move, before the end of the week, was to sack the old general because he realised that the old general was the landlord of the premises he thought he had bought.
He continued to make bad decisions by sacking consultants he employed to give their expert advice when they told him what he didn't want to here. He eventually put the company to the wall with creditors. No one else.
Peter was a shrewd business man, self made and was easily the person with the whip hand in a deal where the prospective purchaser couldn't be bothered to establish what he was buying. Does that mean Peter striped him - not in my eyes.
Maybe if you'd had the chance to get closer to PRW David, you may have had another view on his tenure. Who knows, that may have changed your position when it came to supporting the Rochdale Cowboy and the Russian with such conviction because they took time to speak to you and made you feel important...
Pattern emerging with Mr E.
That's one version John.A respected team of automotive peoples were negotiating purchase of TVR.
Then young Russian comes along and decides he wants to buy the company without doing due diligence (fool and his or somebody else's money are easily parted).
Young Russian's first positive move was to keep the old general at his side for a few years. His first negative move, before the end of the week, was to sack the old general because he realised that the old general was the landlord of the premises he thought he had bought.
He continued to make bad decisions by sacking consultants he employed to give their expert advice when they told him what he didn't want to here. He eventually put the company to the wall with creditors. No one else.
Peter was a shrewd business man, self made and was easily the person with the whip hand in a deal where the prospective purchaser couldn't be bothered to establish what he was buying. Does that mean Peter striped him - not in my eyes.
Maybe if you'd had the chance to get closer to PRW David, you may have had another view on his tenure. Who knows, that may have changed your position when it came to supporting the Rochdale Cowboy and the Russian with such conviction because they took time to speak to you and made you feel important...
Pattern emerging with Mr E.
That Smolenski was an idiot there is no doubt and I'm not defending him in any way but he was sold a lemon and as you say if he'd done his homework then I doubt he'd have bought the company.
However taking him out of the picture it's evident that TVR where in serious financial difficulties when it was sold, most of the issues being of their own making due to poor management. PW had ceased discussions with any other interested parties as they had done their due diligence and he wasn't interested at the more realistic prices they were talking. I have that on good authority from several parties you haven't mentioned.
Not sure what talking to Melling has to do with it and NS never spoke to me at any length about anything sensible. It's my role to talk to folk in the TVR world and attempt to report what is going on that will be of interest to the members. A former engine designer and owner seem to fit in that category to me, especially when there was no active factory to talk to and there was a magazine to fill.
The TVRCC is frequently criticised as being irrelevant (an opinion I believe PW held for many years) and now it seems attempting to engage with the current owners is wrong as well.
Makes you wonder why you bother at times.....
....anyway back on topic. That engine has had a lot of development by Ford, it has a thriving knowledge base for improvement, it is being breathed on by one of the best names out there. What's not to like, I for one am looking forward to the future and not lingering too much on the past.....
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