AutoCar - New TVR V8 first dyno test
Discussion
HarryW said:
....anyway back on topic. That engine has had a lot of development by Ford, it has a thriving knowledge base for improvement, it is being breathed on by one of the best names out there. What's not to like, I for one am looking forward to the future and not lingering too much on the past.....
With side exhausts it's going to sound terrifying. I can't wait for one to overtake me.V8 GRF said:
TVRMs said:
Lots of smoke and mirrors around the time that Peter sold the company. The story is understood to go like this.
A respected team of automotive peoples were negotiating purchase of TVR.
Then young Russian comes along and decides he wants to buy the company without doing due diligence (fool and his or somebody else's money are easily parted).
Young Russian's first positive move was to keep the old general at his side for a few years. His first negative move, before the end of the week, was to sack the old general because he realised that the old general was the landlord of the premises he thought he had bought.
He continued to make bad decisions by sacking consultants he employed to give their expert advice when they told him what he didn't want to here. He eventually put the company to the wall with creditors. No one else.
Peter was a shrewd business man, self made and was easily the person with the whip hand in a deal where the prospective purchaser couldn't be bothered to establish what he was buying. Does that mean Peter striped him - not in my eyes.
Maybe if you'd had the chance to get closer to PRW David, you may have had another view on his tenure. Who knows, that may have changed your position when it came to supporting the Rochdale Cowboy and the Russian with such conviction because they took time to speak to you and made you feel important...
Pattern emerging with Mr E.
That's one version John.A respected team of automotive peoples were negotiating purchase of TVR.
Then young Russian comes along and decides he wants to buy the company without doing due diligence (fool and his or somebody else's money are easily parted).
Young Russian's first positive move was to keep the old general at his side for a few years. His first negative move, before the end of the week, was to sack the old general because he realised that the old general was the landlord of the premises he thought he had bought.
He continued to make bad decisions by sacking consultants he employed to give their expert advice when they told him what he didn't want to here. He eventually put the company to the wall with creditors. No one else.
Peter was a shrewd business man, self made and was easily the person with the whip hand in a deal where the prospective purchaser couldn't be bothered to establish what he was buying. Does that mean Peter striped him - not in my eyes.
Maybe if you'd had the chance to get closer to PRW David, you may have had another view on his tenure. Who knows, that may have changed your position when it came to supporting the Rochdale Cowboy and the Russian with such conviction because they took time to speak to you and made you feel important...
Pattern emerging with Mr E.
That Smolenski was an idiot there is no doubt and I'm not defending him in any way but he was sold a lemon and as you say if he'd done his homework then I doubt he'd have bought the company.
However taking him out of the picture it's evident that TVR where in serious financial difficulties when it was sold, most of the issues being of their own making due to poor management. PW had ceased discussions with any other interested parties as they had done their due diligence and he wasn't interested at the more realistic prices they were talking. I have that on good authority from several parties you haven't mentioned.
Not sure what talking to Melling has to do with it and NS never spoke to me at any length about anything sensible. It's my role to talk to folk in the TVR world and attempt to report what is going on that will be of interest to the members. A former engine designer and owner seem to fit in that category to me, especially when there was no active factory to talk to and there was a magazine to fill.
The TVRCC is frequently criticised as being irrelevant (an opinion I believe PW held for many years) and now it seems attempting to engage with the current owners is wrong as well.
Makes you wonder why you bother at times.....
TVR had been in serious financial difficulties since their 1st years trading almost and it's not cool to set fire to things as a business plan so getting out of financial problems are a little more difficult.
You wonder why you bother at times.....because it makes you feel good, because you care.
Fires gone out for me, don't really care if another new car wears a TVR badge it's not what it says on the tin.
I'll leave the thread and let it get back on track. Apologies.
Regarding the Ford engine making the new TVR a kit car, does anybody consider Morgan cars as kit cars, especially the Aeromax or Aero 8? I know the Aero 8 uses a beemer V8, and not even in the M5 tune. I love these cars personally, and never thought less of them for not using a Morgan engine. Plus they sound savage with the side exit exhausts!
Also, we new that the new TVR wasn't going to use in house built engine's, so what engine did people want? Bmw? Audi? Merc? People will moan at any option, I feel that having a Ford/Cosworth engine suits the brand, feels more honest and it will be all the more sweet when you overtake some supercar knowing it.
So far it all sounds very exciting.
Also, we new that the new TVR wasn't going to use in house built engine's, so what engine did people want? Bmw? Audi? Merc? People will moan at any option, I feel that having a Ford/Cosworth engine suits the brand, feels more honest and it will be all the more sweet when you overtake some supercar knowing it.
So far it all sounds very exciting.
FarmyardPants said:
gruffalo said:
Could someone confirm for me, does the the Coyote engine have a flat plane crank or not?
Thanks
No, it doesn't. I wonder whether Cosworth will install one Thanks
Wouldn't someone be able to tell from that video if it has flat plane?
My assumption is that as they opted for the Ford unit based on cost then I don't think they would then lose all of that commercial advantage by spending too much on the engine?
My thoughts were that the changes will be minimal for the basic car. Maybe even just software? But probably just enough to warrant the Cosworth stamp and no more.
There is clearly much that can be done to the base engine and it's probably better to offer them as packaged performance upgrades. Much more profit in selling a base product and offering upgrades than selling the base with the upgrades and having to squeeze the margins to attract buyers.
My assumption is that as they opted for the Ford unit based on cost then I don't think they would then lose all of that commercial advantage by spending too much on the engine?
My thoughts were that the changes will be minimal for the basic car. Maybe even just software? But probably just enough to warrant the Cosworth stamp and no more.
There is clearly much that can be done to the base engine and it's probably better to offer them as packaged performance upgrades. Much more profit in selling a base product and offering upgrades than selling the base with the upgrades and having to squeeze the margins to attract buyers.
gruffalo said:
Could someone confirm for me, does the the Coyote engine have a flat plane crank or not?
Thanks
No the Coyote doesn't have a flat plane crank.Thanks
The Voodoo has a FPC but I understand it's more of a race orientated set-up and needs revs to produce power which I assume isn't what TVR are after.
DonkeyApple said:
Wouldn't someone be able to tell from that video if it has flat plane?
My assumption is that as they opted for the Ford unit based on cost then I don't think they would then lose all of that commercial advantage by spending too much on the engine?
My thoughts were that the changes will be minimal for the basic car. Maybe even just software? But probably just enough to warrant the Cosworth stamp and no more.
There is clearly much that can be done to the base engine and it's probably better to offer them as packaged performance upgrades. Much more profit in selling a base product and offering upgrades than selling the base with the upgrades and having to squeeze the margins to attract buyers.
Les said the engine would be developed as a full le man racer spec, then detuned for the road going car. I took that to mean it would be easy to ramp up power again.My assumption is that as they opted for the Ford unit based on cost then I don't think they would then lose all of that commercial advantage by spending too much on the engine?
My thoughts were that the changes will be minimal for the basic car. Maybe even just software? But probably just enough to warrant the Cosworth stamp and no more.
There is clearly much that can be done to the base engine and it's probably better to offer them as packaged performance upgrades. Much more profit in selling a base product and offering upgrades than selling the base with the upgrades and having to squeeze the margins to attract buyers.
If this is flat out, i.e over "500 'n odd" torques apparently:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5qZOQL-g0s&t=...
and here's another Coyote engine getting up to 8krpm.
https://youtu.be/l-NZIOIhUiU?t=148
and here's the voodoo engine getting near the rev limit with an exhaust mic.
https://youtu.be/WKiCsYypMZo?t=84
The pitch of those engines suggest to me that the TVR was at ~6500rpm. Either they're keeping 1500rpm in the bank on the vid, or (despite the 4 valve head and fancy cam timing), it is more american muscle than racecar.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5qZOQL-g0s&t=...
and here's another Coyote engine getting up to 8krpm.
https://youtu.be/l-NZIOIhUiU?t=148
and here's the voodoo engine getting near the rev limit with an exhaust mic.
https://youtu.be/WKiCsYypMZo?t=84
The pitch of those engines suggest to me that the TVR was at ~6500rpm. Either they're keeping 1500rpm in the bank on the vid, or (despite the 4 valve head and fancy cam timing), it is more american muscle than racecar.
Edited by 977 on Thursday 15th October 14:11
The Ford V8 Engine to be used is 4 Valve 5 Litre known as the Coyote, its rated at 420 BHP and 390 Ft Lbs of Torque it will rev to 7000 rpm it can be brought as a crate engine, it has a lot in common with the 4.6 Modular engine and can be used to replace the older engines,it has variable cam timing and a 90 degree firing crankshaft its not a flate plane crank,to get 500 BHP is not going to be hard to achieve with a dry sump system to cut down windage will give less drag on the rotating assembly also a good header and free flowing exhaust system system and remap will a achieve this without any problem.
Intake manifolds seem to offer a decent return
http://www.nmradigital.com/2013/12/18/jpc-racing-c...
Different exhaust options offer possibilities if we look at this article with the engine on a dyno with no cats and silencers
The 5.0L Coyote motor produced 448 hp at 6,600 rpm and 405 lb-ft of torque at 4,500 rpm. This compares to the rated output of 412 hp at 6,500 rpm and 390 lb-ft at 4,250 rpm.
http://www.mustangandfords.com/how-to/engine/mmfp-...
The second part of the article adds superchargers for 700bhp
http://www.mustangandfords.com/how-to/engine/mmfp-...
It also mentions it's very favourable engine compared to the 6.2L LS3
Cosworth playing with a very tuneable V8 engine - what's not to like?
http://www.nmradigital.com/2013/12/18/jpc-racing-c...
Different exhaust options offer possibilities if we look at this article with the engine on a dyno with no cats and silencers
The 5.0L Coyote motor produced 448 hp at 6,600 rpm and 405 lb-ft of torque at 4,500 rpm. This compares to the rated output of 412 hp at 6,500 rpm and 390 lb-ft at 4,250 rpm.
http://www.mustangandfords.com/how-to/engine/mmfp-...
The second part of the article adds superchargers for 700bhp
http://www.mustangandfords.com/how-to/engine/mmfp-...
It also mentions it's very favourable engine compared to the 6.2L LS3
Cosworth playing with a very tuneable V8 engine - what's not to like?
We do not know what Cosworth have done to the engine mechanically, I would have thought it safe to say they have done mechanical changes to it as well as ECU, or they wouldn't be bothering with all the engine testing as they would just rely of the Ford printouts for the crate engine surely?
Also if i understand correctly isn't the Voodoo based on the Coyote engine just with FPC and taken out to 5.2 litres?
Also if i understand correctly isn't the Voodoo based on the Coyote engine just with FPC and taken out to 5.2 litres?
I cannot see they would be messing with internals its a good reliable engine and has good components to make reliable high horse power if aint broke dont fix it, my view is that Cosworth will test and rephase cam variable timing in other words alter the center line angles beyond ford peramiters or even fit different camshafts its my belief they are aiming for 500 BHP and 425 FT LBS torque.
Pursyluv said:
Just out of curiosity, why have those replacing their Speed6/AJP engines in the last 5-10 years gone the LS route rather than the Ford route?
for the ls speaks engine weight. loads of aftermarket parts. easy to tube up if needed. dont know why the went the ford route maybe they wanted to do it differently. if i would do a conversion would put a de stroked ls in. more than enough power with a regular tvr. limitation is nit engine or gearbix it is to bring the power down. would mean min 10 inch wheels on the back with some serious rubber.Bluebottle said:
We do not know what Cosworth have done to the engine mechanically, I would have thought it safe to say they have done mechanical changes to it as well as ECU, or they wouldn't be bothering with all the engine testing as they would just rely of the Ford printouts for the crate engine surely?
Also if i understand correctly isn't the Voodoo based on the Coyote engine just with FPC and taken out to 5.2 litres?
They won't put a flat plane crank in it as ford will not supply the crank or the voodoo engine to third parties for several years. Also if i understand correctly isn't the Voodoo based on the Coyote engine just with FPC and taken out to 5.2 litres?
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