AutoCar - New TVR V8 first dyno test

[Byker28i]

Vixpy1 said:

Not really, its cosworth which means the management will probably be Cosworth Electronics (well, Pectel) which will be locked. Which basically means all aftermarket tuning is out.

Older coyote seems to respond well.
http://www.hotrod.com/events/coverage/1204em-5-for...

700BHP anyone?

[V8 GRF]

Byker28i said:

Vixpy1 said:

Not really, its cosworth which means the management will probably be Cosworth Electronics (well, Pectel) which will be locked. Which basically means all aftermarket tuning is out.

Older coyote seems to respond well.
http://www.hotrod.com/events/coverage/1204em-5-for...

700BHP anyone?

Based on no inside knowledge at all I'm willing to guess it'll be significantly 'breathed on' and be in that bhp ballpark.
Otherwise there's no point in spending a lot of money at Cosworth when they could buy far cheaper 'upgrades' developed elsewhere and build in-house or a tame engine shop..

Just go back and read all the things Les has said about 'giant killing' & 200+ mph to name just 2 and I'd say you need more than 500bhp to deliver that sort of performance he alluding to.

[nawarne]

...As Dave says, Les would hardly engage Cosworth to develop the Ford engine if the "stuff" that Cosworth are doing could be bought from the 'mass-market' - - the very first output from TVR was to the effect that it would be a stock V8 "BLOCK"..(no reference to heads??)

I would also add, that from his piece at N.Garner's he said power would be 'adequate' (sic)...also much attention was being paid to aero and weight. McLaren (I guess through Mr. Murray's connection) were offering wind tunnel time to aid this process. (In fact he said all the guys at McLaren were very supportive of the whole venture).

Nick

Edited by nawarne on Wednesday 7th October 16:59

[HarryW]

V8 GRF said:

Byker28i said:

Vixpy1 said:

Not really, its cosworth which means the management will probably be Cosworth Electronics (well, Pectel) which will be locked. Which basically means all aftermarket tuning is out.

Older coyote seems to respond well.
http://www.hotrod.com/events/coverage/1204em-5-for...

700BHP anyone?

Based on no inside knowledge at all I'm willing to guess it'll be significantly 'breathed on' and be in that bhp ballpark.
Otherwise there's no point in spending a lot of money at Cosworth when they could buy far cheaper 'upgrades' developed elsewhere and build in-house or a tame engine shop..

Just go back and read all the things Les has said about 'giant killing' & 200+ mph to name just 2 and I'd say you need more than 500bhp to deliver that sort of performance he alluding to.

Pretty much where i'm at, I'd expect north of 500 in normal road trim, 600+ in LM trim.

Be really good to get some high level details from Cosworth or TVR such as; flat plane/cross plane crank, high compression (a given), bespoke pistons/rods/crank, heavy modified head flow bench work, bespoke developed cam profiles, switchable maps etc. They could come out with those things without giving away much of actual real details of the developement even at this stage.

[Tvr Power]

Andy_mr2sc said:

coco79 said:

Might void warranty though

Oh please don't say that. How long will it take before aftermarket tuners are offering the infamous 100k miles, 5yr warranty....

Big Boys and there Big toys don't give a damn about warranties they just want more Power... Thank you Tvr

Dom

[igiveup]

350Matt said:

igiveup said:

Will the Coyote engine fit in a Chimaera or Griffith or Cerbera even?

not a chance
but being as this is an all new chassis and new venture why does that matter ?

It doesn't matter, it was just a question. Plenty of those models with LS crates etc

[FarmyardPants]

Ford must've had us in mind when they designed the 5.0 4V TiVCT V-8

[gacksen]

interessting base price of 7K USD for the engine. would be interessting to know why they decided against the proven LS route.

as for the tuning as dom already said.... if there should be something locked throw out the ecu setup go aftermarket
different cams heaeders and heads maybe charger and there you go...... if theres a will for more power theres a way

[m4tti]

The reality is that this engine can be bought from ford motorsport with the target hp normally aspirated branded as the "aluminator", I know new tvr has had talks with a super charger supplier. All of this is off the shelf stuff minus the pectel management and cosworth branding.

If that's your bag then cool! But I held back on the deposit as I wanted to see whether they would get an exclusive crate deal on the Voodoo engine, and they haven't. Hate to say it (and I really wanted to want it) but this just doesn't add up for me, from an engineering perspective there's not much that Ford Motorsport won't have already tried. I was holding off looking at R8 v10's but I think this has kind of reassured me. Unless the car is entirely of carbon fibre, an 80k car with a ford crate engine, with bolt on super charger and pectel management just doesn't make sense.

The saving grace is this is part of that ford modular range so the voodoo should share the same mounting positions etc... Dom start begging ford contacts for exclusive UK supply of crate voodoo's... Instant engine upgrade, and control of the supply

[DonkeyApple]

gacksen said:

interessting base price of 7K USD for the engine. would be interessting to know why they decided against the proven LS route.

as for the tuning as dom already said.... if there should be something locked throw out the ecu setup go aftermarket
different cams heaeders and heads maybe charger and there you go...... if theres a will for more power theres a way

I think it really just boils down to a better story and image for selling to people who haven't owned a TVR before but have £100k to spend on a toy.

Ford + Cosworth isn't going to be seen as a cheap, redneck solution.

[KKson]

DonkeyApple said:

HarryW said:

It would be really good to know what Cosworth are actually doing with it.

1. adding a brand that will greatly help sell £100k+ cars to new brand enthusiasts.

2. locking out the aftermarket tuners as best as possible so as to secure that revenue stream internally to support the business.

Fewer journos are going to make snide remarks about Cosworth in contrast to how bhy a lot of them would be if it were 'just' a Ford.

It stamps a British flag and heritage on a U.S. product.

I'm sorry but I was at Neil Garners when Les explained pricing strategy which certainly was not £100k+. Even my 13 year old clearly remembers the figures mentioned and also he felt the enthusiasm Les had for TVR's and their rebirth.

I'm a TVR fan and owner of two TVR's (both of which are bloody broken at the moment!). Yes they may not be the most reliable of things in the world. Yes they were constructed from a number of alternative components from various suppliers. And yes TVR as new are here to make some profit as well as hopefully getting the TVR marque back up and running. What I don't understand is why some people here who appear to be TVR fans also appear to be so bloody negative about just about everything.

Whether we like it or not Ford is American. They make cracking V8 engines and they have a research budget that is massive so they will have engineered, checked and double checked the reliability of their engines before they are released to their mass produced creations. Many people blame the demise of TVR on the production of their own engines and the warranty issues associated with them. Personally I feel that to take an already proven and reliable Ford engine and turn the skills of Cosworth on it to extract even more bhp is positive. Maybe I'm just a glass half full person, despite what the wife says......

[dazee]

KKson said:

I'm sorry but I was at Neil Garners when Les explained pricing strategy which certainly was not £100k+. Even my 13 year old clearly remembers the figures mentioned and also he felt the enthusiasm Les had for TVR's and their rebirth.

I'm a TVR fan and owner of two TVR's (both of which are bloody broken at the moment!). Yes they may not be the most reliable of things in the world. Yes they were constructed from a number of alternative components from various suppliers. And yes TVR as new are here to make some profit as well as hopefully getting the TVR marque back up and running. What I don't understand is why some people here who appear to be TVR fans also appear to be so bloody negative about just about everything.

Whether we like it or not Ford is American. They make cracking V8 engines and they have a research budget that is massive so they will have engineered, checked and double checked the reliability of their engines before they are released to their mass produced creations. Many people blame the demise of TVR on the production of their own engines and the warranty issues associated with them. Personally I feel that to take an already proven and reliable Ford engine and turn the skills of Cosworth on it to extract even more bhp is positive. Maybe I'm just a glass half full person, despite what the wife says......

Same here. I received the email, watched the video and just think this is all good news for us. Still I suppose you can't please everyone all the time, and certainly there are folks that just like to kick sand castles down.

Love the fact they are continuing to move forwards and looking forward to the eventual car.

[m4tti]

m4tti said:

KKson said:

I'm sorry but I was at Neil Garners when Les explained pricing strategy which certainly was not £100k+. Even my 13 year old clearly remembers the figures mentioned and also he felt the enthusiasm Les had for TVR's and their rebirth.

I'm a TVR fan and owner of two TVR's (both of which are bloody broken at the moment!). Yes they may not be the most reliable of things in the world. Yes they were constructed from a number of alternative components from various suppliers. And yes TVR as new are here to make some profit as well as hopefully getting the TVR marque back up and running. What I don't understand is why some people here who appear to be TVR fans also appear to be so bloody negative about just about everything.

Whether we like it or not Ford is American. They make cracking V8 engines and they have a research budget that is massive so they will have engineered, checked and double checked the reliability of their engines before they are released to their mass produced creations. Many people blame the demise of TVR on the production of their own engines and the warranty issues associated with them. Personally I feel that to take an already proven and reliable Ford engine and turn the skills of Cosworth on it to extract even more bhp is positive. Maybe I'm just a glass half full person, despite what the wife says......

Any ideas what cosworth will do apart from apply pectel management, headers, cams, or a supercharger, which arent basically already out there.... I like your glass half full attitude but it's just not a big enough usp to sell to me...it's 80k.. Forget what you think but the rumblings say it will be that.. I buy a car on the whole engineering package... You want road car R8 v10 very special engine moderately special chassis... you want track day the radical rxc 100k is in the realistic price range,which will smash it, massive down force and ford engine ...

People seem to have lost any sense of rational.... At 80k the thinking man will buy a f430. It's a real tough market, buyers are going to have to really want it!! As mentioned I feel slightly deflated they haven't gone for the voodoo unit, but they haven't,...

It's a very tough sell still at this stage, I may regret not putting the deposit down, but I'm guessing when the cold light of day and the request for 75k hits some people they will pull out. People shouldn't lose touch with reality here and what's out there at the price point... And I did turn up to hear les at the ng open day, but if we're again being realistic I'd say less than 5% of the audience will be in the position to buy the new tvr... Nostalgia aside he's Probably better hitting the Ferrari club. ...

Edited by m4tti on Wednesday 7th October 23:56[/footnote]

[footnote]Edited by m4tti on Thursday 8th October 00:30

[DonkeyApple]

KKson said:

DonkeyApple said:

HarryW said:

It would be really good to know what Cosworth are actually doing with it.

1. adding a brand that will greatly help sell £100k+ cars to new brand enthusiasts.

2. locking out the aftermarket tuners as best as possible so as to secure that revenue stream internally to support the business.

Fewer journos are going to make snide remarks about Cosworth in contrast to how bhy a lot of them would be if it were 'just' a Ford.

It stamps a British flag and heritage on a U.S. product.

I'm sorry but I was at Neil Garners when Les explained pricing strategy which certainly was not £100k+. Even my 13 year old clearly remembers the figures mentioned and also he felt the enthusiasm Les had for TVR's and their rebirth.

I'm a TVR fan and owner of two TVR's (both of which are bloody broken at the moment!). Yes they may not be the most reliable of things in the world. Yes they were constructed from a number of alternative components from various suppliers. And yes TVR as new are here to make some profit as well as hopefully getting the TVR marque back up and running. What I don't understand is why some people here who appear to be TVR fans also appear to be so bloody negative about just about everything.

Whether we like it or not Ford is American. They make cracking V8 engines and they have a research budget that is massive so they will have engineered, checked and double checked the reliability of their engines before they are released to their mass produced creations. Many people blame the demise of TVR on the production of their own engines and the warranty issues associated with them. Personally I feel that to take an already proven and reliable Ford engine and turn the skills of Cosworth on it to extract even more bhp is positive. Maybe I'm just a glass half full person, despite what the wife says......

Indeed. Launching at £80k. That very clearly says to me that these will be £100k cars very quickly. And to get the kind of sales volumes that they want then they will be looking to sell outside of the existing owners and enthusiasts.

That's exactly why they have been so smart in overlaying the Cosworth brand over the Ford one.

I'm not sure who is being negative about any of this at the moment. I haven't seen much evidence of this outside of the insecure junior Porsche borrowers. And what I am liking most about how LE is bringing this back is that he seems to have clearly identified the weaknesses of the old TVR and has addressed each one so as to ensure the British media support him instead of mock him.

Afterall, can you imagine the field day out media would have over a retired computer games chap trying to build a car if LE hadn't fired the first garage with the names of both Cosworth and Murray? Association to those two brands instantly nipped in the bud the negativity and jibing that would have happened. Even in PH without those names we would have had the usual garage of that classic SniffPetrol PR firm for British firms being posted left right and centre.

Personally, I don't think anything could have been done better than it has at this stage.

Which is a very good thing as these will be £100k cars.

[dvs_dave]

Interesting stuff and glad to see that they've gone with the Ford Coyote instead of the ubiquitous Chevy LS option. I look forward to hearing more details on the engine specifics. Would be nice if its a TVR unique version that pinches the voodoo flat crank and cams (voodoo has bigger bore and longer stroke hence 5.2L) but dropped in the standard coyote block. Wouldn't be all that hard to do and has the advantage of making it special, yet keeping the numerous aftermarket bolt on upgrades developed for the coyote compatible. If it's just a tweaked base coyote, then why bother spending all that money with Cosworth when it could be done in house without much skill using off the shelf bits.

[DonkeyApple]

V8 GRF said:

Byker28i said:

Vixpy1 said:

Not really, its cosworth which means the management will probably be Cosworth Electronics (well, Pectel) which will be locked. Which basically means all aftermarket tuning is out.

Older coyote seems to respond well.
http://www.hotrod.com/events/coverage/1204em-5-for...

700BHP anyone?

Based on no inside knowledge at all I'm willing to guess it'll be significantly 'breathed on' and be in that bhp ballpark.
Otherwise there's no point in spending a lot of money at Cosworth when they could buy far cheaper 'upgrades' developed elsewhere and build in-house or a tame engine shop..

Just go back and read all the things Les has said about 'giant killing' & 200+ mph to name just 2 and I'd say you need more than 500bhp to deliver that sort of performance he alluding to.

I wonder if looking at what power outputs the Le Mans cars from the group they will be racing in would give an indication of where they need to be?

I also wonder what they have changed on the VVT setup that is significant enough to warrant mention, although that might just have been part of the hyperbole of the autocar article.

[DonkeyApple]

dvs_dave said:

Interesting stuff and glad to see that they've gone with the Ford Coyote instead of the ubiquitous Chevy LS option. I look forward to hearing more details on the engine specifics. Would be nice if its a TVR unique version that pinches the voodoo flat crank and cams (voodoo has bigger bore and longer stroke hence 5.2L) but dropped in the standard coyote block. Wouldn't be all that hard to do and has the advantage of making it special, yet keeping the numerous aftermarket bolt on upgrades developed for the coyote compatible. If it's just a tweaked base coyote, then why bother spending all that money with Cosworth when it could be done in house without much skill using off the shelf bits.

I'm convinced that it purely boils down to where the people in the UK are, in numbers, who can drop £100knin a car and that's the Home Counties and London. Just like the last time TVR sold in big numbers.

You can just imagine the ridicule on the desk from all the VAG punters about the plastic car with the Billy Bob engine. No one in that environment would buy one. Even the chaps who buy Lotus' have to put up with a lot of banter because it isn't a Porsche.

Being able to say that it's a Cosworth engine and the car was designed by the chap behind the F1 is two massive scores in the game of male bravado top trumps.

[Englishman]

I was at NG's open day too and one thing I picked up on was LE's admiration for Aston Martin and indeed their owners club. Given his previous involvement with the marque that is not that surprising, but does perhaps give an indicator of where he sees the target market/owners/pricing.

Although prices were not fixed yet, I heard ~£70K base, ~£80K for the LE, but that the LE options ordered separately on the base model would add ~10%. They would also be asking for a further deposit from those that confirmed orders.

As for the car spec so far, looks good to me, low weight, high power, rear wheel drive, manual gearbox. Just need to add stunning looks inside and out, quality and reliability and they are on to a winner IMHO, even at AM prices.

[V8 GRF]

Base price mentioned at Neil Garner was £60k for a 'configurable' car. LE £80K - £85k for a highly specced car with a 10% discount on the prices if you specced from the base. There would be 'upgrades' on the LE that wouldn't be available on production cars.

So not sure where this £100K+ is coming from as ifaik the people quoting those prices didn't hear Les on the day!

New regulations have been announced to create a GTE class to replace GT3. These state minimum weight of 1245kg, maximum of 5.5litres for N/A (Viper has dispensation) and power between 500- 600 with a 20bhp increase allowed. So for racing it looks like we're looking at a max of 620, so maybe the racecar will be a detuned roadcar like (iirc) the F1 was.

[TOV!E]

KKson said:

I'm sorry but I was at Neil Garners when Les explained pricing strategy which certainly was not £100k+. Even my 13 year old clearly remembers the figures mentioned and also he felt the enthusiasm Les had for TVR's and their rebirth.

I'm a TVR fan and owner of two TVR's (both of which are bloody broken at the moment!). Yes they may not be the most reliable of things in the world. Yes they were constructed from a number of alternative components from various suppliers. And yes TVR as new are here to make some profit as well as hopefully getting the TVR marque back up and running. What I don't understand is why some people here who appear to be TVR fans also appear to be so bloody negative about just about everything.

Whether we like it or not Ford is American. They make cracking V8 engines and they have a research budget that is massive so they will have engineered, checked and double checked the reliability of their engines before they are released to their mass produced creations. Many people blame the demise of TVR on the production of their own engines and the warranty issues associated with them. Personally I feel that to take an already proven and reliable Ford engine and turn the skills of Cosworth on it to extract even more bhp is positive. Maybe I'm just a glass half full person, despite what the wife says......

Well said, most people are for the new TVR, some against, that is always going to happen, should I now go and spent £55/60 plus grand on a 10 year old TVR or wait for a new TVR, decisions, decisions........