AutoCar - New TVR V8 first dyno test
Discussion
FarmyardPants said:
Interesting article about the engine's development:
http://www.mustangandfords.com/parts/m5lp-1003-201...
The independently variable cam timing must give a lot of tuning flexibility especially in conjunction with custom headers etc.
Cheers for the link really enjoyed the read.http://www.mustangandfords.com/parts/m5lp-1003-201...
The independently variable cam timing must give a lot of tuning flexibility especially in conjunction with custom headers etc.
BJWoods said:
Byker28i said:
V8 GRF said:
Interestingly Griffith is the only name that TVR have trademarked, 2017 will be the 25 anniversary of the modern Griffith's availability for sale and it's also TVR's 70th anniversary ..... just saying 
I wouldn't want to see a name reused, any name. I think that would devalue what unique cars each model is.does the current 911 devalue all those variations that came before?
reusing an iconic name is good marketing, especially if the car builds on reputation of the previous generation.
Could many people tell the difference between the various versions without resorting to google?
So you'd like new griff, old griff and original griff? We're not talking about devaluing in terms of monetary value, but in terms of that piece of iconic British motoring history.
When most people think of a Griffith they think of the 90s great selling car and that's why I wouldn't like to see any name reused. The cars currently stand on their own, easily identifiable when discussed or recognised.
This Phoenix needs a new name.
V8 GRF said:
Base price mentioned at Neil Garner was £60k for a 'configurable' car. LE £80K - £85k for a highly specced car with a 10% discount on the prices if you specced from the base. There would be 'upgrades' on the LE that wouldn't be available on production cars.
So not sure where this £100K+ is coming from as ifaik the people quoting those prices didn't hear Les on the day!
New regulations have been announced to create a GTE class to replace GT3. These state minimum weight of 1245kg, maximum of 5.5litres for N/A (Viper has dispensation) and power between 500- 600 with a 20bhp increase allowed. So for racing it looks like we're looking at a max of 620, so maybe the racecar will be a detuned roadcar like (iirc) the F1 was.
Hi Dave So not sure where this £100K+ is coming from as ifaik the people quoting those prices didn't hear Les on the day!
New regulations have been announced to create a GTE class to replace GT3. These state minimum weight of 1245kg, maximum of 5.5litres for N/A (Viper has dispensation) and power between 500- 600 with a 20bhp increase allowed. So for racing it looks like we're looking at a max of 620, so maybe the racecar will be a detuned roadcar like (iirc) the F1 was.
No one is disputing the £80k launch edition price but unless TVR is only in business to deliver those 250 cars then they'll be wanting to sell some cars the year after and after that.
The price is going to clear £100k pretty promptly as they get the LE cars out the way and get the business going. They will be building with the future in mind and the future means pushing prices up as quickly as the market will permit. They won't be keeping prices at the launch levels unless things aren't going well.
Look at a 5 year short term horizon from the first sale and I am quite confident that even in that period there will be more >£100k cars sold than <£100k if the venture is succeeding.
Hence my casual reference to these prices, especially as all the cheap LE cars are technically 'sold'.
Plus, the context of my remark was in reference to selling to non enthusiasts. These first cars are almost exclusive to current enthusiasts. After that they have to attract buyers from a wider remit. And by that time the prices will not be what they were to get the first batch away.
Edited by DonkeyApple on Thursday 8th October 21:40
HarryW said:
FarmyardPants said:
Interesting article about the engine's development:
http://www.mustangandfords.com/parts/m5lp-1003-201...
The independently variable cam timing must give a lot of tuning flexibility especially in conjunction with custom headers etc.
Cheers for the link really enjoyed the read.http://www.mustangandfords.com/parts/m5lp-1003-201...
The independently variable cam timing must give a lot of tuning flexibility especially in conjunction with custom headers etc.
DonkeyApple said:
Hi Dave
No one is disputing the £80k launch edition price but unless TVR is only in business to deliver those 250 cars then they'll be wanting to sell some cars the year after and after that.
The price is going to clear £100k pretty promptly as they get the LE cars out the way and get the business going. They will be building with the future in mind and the future means pushing prices up as quickly as the market will permit. They won't be keeping prices at the launch levels unless things aren't going well.
Look at a 5 year short term horizon from the first sale and I am quite confident that even in that period there will be more >£100k cars sold than <£100k if the venture is succeeding.
Hence my casual reference to these prices, especially as all the cheap LE cars are technically 'sold'.
Plus, the context of my remark was in reference to selling to non enthusiasts. These first cars are almost exclusive to current enthusiasts. After that they have to attract buyers from a wider remit. And by that time the prices will not be what they were to get the first batch away.
100k after the initial interest generating LE edition, in 2017 you'll be sniffing around a 458 for that.... No one is disputing the £80k launch edition price but unless TVR is only in business to deliver those 250 cars then they'll be wanting to sell some cars the year after and after that.
The price is going to clear £100k pretty promptly as they get the LE cars out the way and get the business going. They will be building with the future in mind and the future means pushing prices up as quickly as the market will permit. They won't be keeping prices at the launch levels unless things aren't going well.
Look at a 5 year short term horizon from the first sale and I am quite confident that even in that period there will be more >£100k cars sold than <£100k if the venture is succeeding.
Hence my casual reference to these prices, especially as all the cheap LE cars are technically 'sold'.
Plus, the context of my remark was in reference to selling to non enthusiasts. These first cars are almost exclusive to current enthusiasts. After that they have to attract buyers from a wider remit. And by that time the prices will not be what they were to get the first batch away.
Edited by DonkeyApple on Thursday 8th October 21:40
m4tti said:
DonkeyApple said:
Hi Dave
No one is disputing the £80k launch edition price but unless TVR is only in business to deliver those 250 cars then they'll be wanting to sell some cars the year after and after that.
The price is going to clear £100k pretty promptly as they get the LE cars out the way and get the business going. They will be building with the future in mind and the future means pushing prices up as quickly as the market will permit. They won't be keeping prices at the launch levels unless things aren't going well.
Look at a 5 year short term horizon from the first sale and I am quite confident that even in that period there will be more >£100k cars sold than <£100k if the venture is succeeding.
Hence my casual reference to these prices, especially as all the cheap LE cars are technically 'sold'.
Plus, the context of my remark was in reference to selling to non enthusiasts. These first cars are almost exclusive to current enthusiasts. After that they have to attract buyers from a wider remit. And by that time the prices will not be what they were to get the first batch away.
100k after the initial interest generating LE edition, in 2017 you'll be sniffing around a 458 for that.... No one is disputing the £80k launch edition price but unless TVR is only in business to deliver those 250 cars then they'll be wanting to sell some cars the year after and after that.
The price is going to clear £100k pretty promptly as they get the LE cars out the way and get the business going. They will be building with the future in mind and the future means pushing prices up as quickly as the market will permit. They won't be keeping prices at the launch levels unless things aren't going well.
Look at a 5 year short term horizon from the first sale and I am quite confident that even in that period there will be more >£100k cars sold than <£100k if the venture is succeeding.
Hence my casual reference to these prices, especially as all the cheap LE cars are technically 'sold'.
Plus, the context of my remark was in reference to selling to non enthusiasts. These first cars are almost exclusive to current enthusiasts. After that they have to attract buyers from a wider remit. And by that time the prices will not be what they were to get the first batch away.
Edited by DonkeyApple on Thursday 8th October 21:40
Personally, I'm not sure I'd even consider a Ferarri even if TVR didn't exist.
You have to assume that at this sort of pricing the effect of the latter will be shown to some degree. But I'd hazard that more people buy a new 911 than a used Ferrari around that level so it shows where they need to be aiming. And at leat, so far, there is no reason to believe they won't acheive it.
FarmyardPants said:
Interesting article about the engine's development:
http://www.mustangandfords.com/parts/m5lp-1003-201...
The independently variable cam timing must give a lot of tuning flexibility especially in conjunction with custom headers etc.
Nice article with something interesting for the power hungy:http://www.mustangandfords.com/parts/m5lp-1003-201...
The independently variable cam timing must give a lot of tuning flexibility especially in conjunction with custom headers etc.
Article said:
However, the Coyote will inevitably be supercharged. The team didn't want to have to re-engineer the block later, so it was designed with forced-induction loads in mind.
DonkeyApple said:
Hi Dave
No one is disputing the £80k launch edition price but unless TVR is only in business to deliver those 250 cars then they'll be wanting to sell some cars the year after and after that.
The price is going to clear £100k pretty promptly as they get the LE cars out the way and get the business going. They will be building with the future in mind and the future means pushing prices up as quickly as the market will permit. They won't be keeping prices at the launch levels unless things aren't going well.
Look at a 5 year short term horizon from the first sale and I am quite confident that even in that period there will be more >£100k cars sold than <£100k if the venture is succeeding.
Hence my casual reference to these prices, especially as all the cheap LE cars are technically 'sold'.
Plus, the context of my remark was in reference to selling to non enthusiasts. These first cars are almost exclusive to current enthusiasts. After that they have to attract buyers from a wider remit. And by that time the prices will not be what they were to get the first batch away.
Not sure your logic is correct.No one is disputing the £80k launch edition price but unless TVR is only in business to deliver those 250 cars then they'll be wanting to sell some cars the year after and after that.
The price is going to clear £100k pretty promptly as they get the LE cars out the way and get the business going. They will be building with the future in mind and the future means pushing prices up as quickly as the market will permit. They won't be keeping prices at the launch levels unless things aren't going well.
Look at a 5 year short term horizon from the first sale and I am quite confident that even in that period there will be more >£100k cars sold than <£100k if the venture is succeeding.
Hence my casual reference to these prices, especially as all the cheap LE cars are technically 'sold'.
Plus, the context of my remark was in reference to selling to non enthusiasts. These first cars are almost exclusive to current enthusiasts. After that they have to attract buyers from a wider remit. And by that time the prices will not be what they were to get the first batch away.
Edited by DonkeyApple on Thursday 8th October 21:40
Les said at Neil Garners that the configurable (i.e. base option with cloth seats and no options) would be late 60's. The LE with every option would be 80K(ish), therefore the price range is probably 70-80k depending on options taken. I'd expect a slight price increase but not as much as 20K. That's a lot of difference in both %increase and marketing the car against different models.
Byker28i said:
DonkeyApple said:
Hi Dave
No one is disputing the £80k launch edition price but unless TVR is only in business to deliver those 250 cars then they'll be wanting to sell some cars the year after and after that.
The price is going to clear £100k pretty promptly as they get the LE cars out the way and get the business going. They will be building with the future in mind and the future means pushing prices up as quickly as the market will permit. They won't be keeping prices at the launch levels unless things aren't going well.
Look at a 5 year short term horizon from the first sale and I am quite confident that even in that period there will be more >£100k cars sold than <£100k if the venture is succeeding.
Hence my casual reference to these prices, especially as all the cheap LE cars are technically 'sold'.
Plus, the context of my remark was in reference to selling to non enthusiasts. These first cars are almost exclusive to current enthusiasts. After that they have to attract buyers from a wider remit. And by that time the prices will not be what they were to get the first batch away.
Not sure your logic is correct.No one is disputing the £80k launch edition price but unless TVR is only in business to deliver those 250 cars then they'll be wanting to sell some cars the year after and after that.
The price is going to clear £100k pretty promptly as they get the LE cars out the way and get the business going. They will be building with the future in mind and the future means pushing prices up as quickly as the market will permit. They won't be keeping prices at the launch levels unless things aren't going well.
Look at a 5 year short term horizon from the first sale and I am quite confident that even in that period there will be more >£100k cars sold than <£100k if the venture is succeeding.
Hence my casual reference to these prices, especially as all the cheap LE cars are technically 'sold'.
Plus, the context of my remark was in reference to selling to non enthusiasts. These first cars are almost exclusive to current enthusiasts. After that they have to attract buyers from a wider remit. And by that time the prices will not be what they were to get the first batch away.
Edited by DonkeyApple on Thursday 8th October 21:40
Les said at Neil Garners that the configurable (i.e. base option with cloth seats and no options) would be late 60's. The LE with every option would be 80K(ish), therefore the price range is probably 70-80k depending on options taken. I'd expect a slight price increase but not as much as 20K. That's a lot of difference in both %increase and marketing the car against different models.
My premis is that the pool of current enthusiasts is far too small to be able to sell 250+ cars a year to and that means they must ensure the new car also appeals to non enthusiasts. At the same time I think it is very fair to say that they have priced the first cars on squeezed margins to ensure a price range that gets those 250 cars away to us lot. But looking forward it's almost impossible to believe that they will maintain those initial prices. Like all manufacturers they will work hard to keep the stripped out base model that almost no one in reality will be buying at as low a figure as possible but as the fully specced LE first edition is already mooted at over £80k it is easy to see that the equivalent, fully specced, later editions as the firm gets established will be hitting £100k very soon after. I'd hazard well before 2020 just 2+ years in to first delivery.
I don't know what a base 911 costs but I'd wager that the average purchase price once the typical options are selected is well above that base figure which sole purpose is really one of marketing more than anything else. Likewise with the LE model it may have a base in the £60s but few will be bought at that level and most will be optioned up closer to the £80s figure mentioned. Raising the base price a little and adding more options by 2018/19 is an almost given and that will get you very easily to a price that is near or damn it £100k.
And at that sort of level and needing to find more non current enthusiast buyers than existing ones to maintain volumes it's why it seems like such a clever idea to slap the Cosworth brand over the Ford and to apply Gordon Murrays name also. Without those and even at the introductory price levels they just wouldn't be able to attract new people to the marque.
The man who buys the 911 buys because they want that useable everyday super car. I suspect like myself the people who buy the new tvr will be the weekend warriors, who want something special, with a sense of occasion but are also discerning and want something at that price point which demonstrates the pinacle of engineering. Something which can demonstrate serious performance on track, so in the unlikely event my skill level increases I know the car will still be able to deliver more than me.
Then compound that with factors such as residuals (which I don't anticipate being special for a re bodied ford engine), as a weekend warrior you will want to be able to cash in, and get as much back as possible. So at the higher and probably more likely price points (and I agree 100k is probably about right) the argument for purchasing one unless your a die hard enthusiast or the rowan atkinsons of the world, is very limited.
Stop and think for a minute mclaren mp 12, Ferrari 458, Porsche gt3 (no longer an RS though) 100k buys some seriously amazing kit. . All of these represent very special peices of engineering.. 458 has one of the worlds best normally aspirated engines, the mc claren has a Ricardo flat crank v8 and superb chassis, gt3 is just a gt3. This is the reality for the middle man who is thinking of Spending this sort of money. And will be the likely buying process.
Don't get me wrong I love the idea of tvr being back in the market place, but I suspect it will be a struggle.
Then compound that with factors such as residuals (which I don't anticipate being special for a re bodied ford engine), as a weekend warrior you will want to be able to cash in, and get as much back as possible. So at the higher and probably more likely price points (and I agree 100k is probably about right) the argument for purchasing one unless your a die hard enthusiast or the rowan atkinsons of the world, is very limited.
Stop and think for a minute mclaren mp 12, Ferrari 458, Porsche gt3 (no longer an RS though) 100k buys some seriously amazing kit. . All of these represent very special peices of engineering.. 458 has one of the worlds best normally aspirated engines, the mc claren has a Ricardo flat crank v8 and superb chassis, gt3 is just a gt3. This is the reality for the middle man who is thinking of Spending this sort of money. And will be the likely buying process.
Don't get me wrong I love the idea of tvr being back in the market place, but I suspect it will be a struggle.
chris watton said:
...or if you are just looking for something that goes like stink and has great performance numbers, there's the Nissan GTR, a comparative bargain. (if you can get past the fact it's a Nissan..)
Yep you don't even have to go to 100k to get super car destroying performance that with a couple of tweaks posts remarkable ring lap timesm4tti said:
The man who buys the 911 buys because they want that useable everyday super car. I suspect like myself the people who buy the new tvr will be the weekend warriors, who want something special, with a sense of occasion but are also discerning and want something at that price point which demonstrates the pinacle of engineering. Something which can demonstrate serious performance on track, so in the unlikely event my skill level increases I know the car will still be able to deliver more than me.
Then compound that with factors such as residuals (which I don't anticipate being special for a re bodied ford engine), as a weekend warrior you will want to be able to cash in, and get as much back as possible. So at the higher and probably more likely price points (and I agree 100k is probably about right) the argument for purchasing one unless your a die hard enthusiast or the rowan atkinsons of the world, is very limited.
Stop and think for a minute mclaren mp 12, Ferrari 458, Porsche gt3 (no longer an RS though) 100k buys some seriously amazing kit. . All of these represent very special peices of engineering.. 458 has one of the worlds best normally aspirated engines, the mc claren has a Ricardo flat crank v8 and superb chassis, gt3 is just a gt3. This is the reality for the middle man who is thinking of Spending this sort of money. And will be the likely buying process.
Don't get me wrong I love the idea of tvr being back in the market place, but I suspect it will be a struggle.
And don't forget that at the bottom end we have the £30k Mustang!!!!Then compound that with factors such as residuals (which I don't anticipate being special for a re bodied ford engine), as a weekend warrior you will want to be able to cash in, and get as much back as possible. So at the higher and probably more likely price points (and I agree 100k is probably about right) the argument for purchasing one unless your a die hard enthusiast or the rowan atkinsons of the world, is very limited.
Stop and think for a minute mclaren mp 12, Ferrari 458, Porsche gt3 (no longer an RS though) 100k buys some seriously amazing kit. . All of these represent very special peices of engineering.. 458 has one of the worlds best normally aspirated engines, the mc claren has a Ricardo flat crank v8 and superb chassis, gt3 is just a gt3. This is the reality for the middle man who is thinking of Spending this sort of money. And will be the likely buying process.
Don't get me wrong I love the idea of tvr being back in the market place, but I suspect it will be a struggle.
It is going to be really hard but all the info put out so far gives me faith that if it can be achieved then they are going about it the right way.
Personally, I think success rests on being able to tap into the current non enthusiast Home Counties market. Hundreds of thousands of blokes who commute in the week by train, have the income to finance the purchase, like the idea of a TVR but because they aren't necasarily serious car fans and a bit image conscious about what their work peers think would typically aim for something from Porsche for example.
If in 2018/19, die hard TVR owners are complaining that new TVR owners aren't understanding the brand etc then I think that will be a higely positive sign that they have succeeded in selling beyond our small group.
chris watton said:
...or if you are just looking for something that goes like stink and has great performance numbers, there's the Nissan GTR, a comparative bargain. (if you can get past the fact it's a Nissan..)
Without any badge snobbery I just don't get the Nissan. They clearly float a lot of folks boats who wouldn't look twice at a TVR but......I'm sure it's epic and probably one of the fastest things A - B bar none, but there's a 'supercar' meet locally every third Sunday and several turn-up with their big exhausts, carbon add-on bits and mattblack wrap and they just sit there like big fat barges dwarfing just about anything (including Ferraris and Astons) that park next to them.
To me they don't generate any excitement or 'passion' (for want of a better word) I can imagine after owning one for a few weeks/months you wouldn't look back at it as you walked away from parking it up or look out of the window with a brew in your hand like I still do with the Griff 9 years later....
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