New TVR still under wraps!
Discussion
BeastMaster said:
and by dropping Gordon Murrey and Cosworth into the mix surly that takes care of the reliability question.
Does it? Good design is one small part of 'high reliability' the other parts, which for an typical passenger car are actually much more onerous, are the Build and Validation programs that leverage that high reliability design. The reason something like a Small modern hatchback is more reliable than ever before, despite being something like 10x as complex as ever before is due in no small part to the massive validation program for that design and the pre-production / continuous quality validation of the supply and manufacture/build programs.
All those things cost vast sums of money!
Max_Torque said:
Does it? Good design is one small part of 'high reliability' the other parts, which for an typical passenger car are actually much more onerous, are the Build and Validation programs that leverage that high reliability design.
The reason something like a Small modern hatchback is more reliable than ever before, despite being something like 10x as complex as ever before is due in no small part to the massive validation program for that design and the pre-production / continuous quality validation of the supply and manufacture/build programs.
All those things cost vast sums of money!
Of course it does - because Gordon Murray and Cosworth are not going to allow TVR to ruin their reputation by building a dog in the same way Norman Foster would not allow his building designs to be marred by cowboy builders !!!The reason something like a Small modern hatchback is more reliable than ever before, despite being something like 10x as complex as ever before is due in no small part to the massive validation program for that design and the pre-production / continuous quality validation of the supply and manufacture/build programs.
All those things cost vast sums of money!
The new TVR (like all that have gone before) is not going to be, or expected to be a high reliability design like a modern small hatchback – it will be as TVR models that have gone before, a low volume, value for money high performance car first.
Anyway – it was never the design of the cars that caused the unreliability of them it was the build quality caused by rushing the things into the market place, something which is not happening today – so a good sign.
A massive and costly validation program and pre production process is no guarantee of high reliability and would make a low volume production run totally cost prohibitive, while also being pointless for such a narrow focused car.
BJWoods said:
NuddyRap said:
It is disappointing that all they have managed to produce within this timeframe is a couple of non-committal physical properties.
The process from here towards aesthetic confirmation is quite involved, before even considering b-surface work, practical engineering accommodations (Motions and clearances), servicing and accessibility simulation, legality assessments and impact on design/budget, door shingles, panel relationships and offsets, integration of plastics, final A-surface signoff and release, mould making, material specifications, tooling, testing.... prototype assembly, testing, feedback, testing, feedback, testing, changes, testing...
And then facilities setup, production line specification, line fitting, line testing, process organisation, certification, recruitment... purchasing, component testing, crash testing, homologation, type approval... and eventually a car will be put together - then rapidly dismantled to validate that they've not missed anything.
I've cut these lists short, but one day after this and more, a car will be born.
This of course is small volume and new, so it won't quite consume the £ in resources that a new market segment production Porsche might consume, but it still needs a
tonne of money - and more than you think.
I'm not trying to be a naysayer, but there was a lump of clay under the blanket last year. A year on there really should be something more.
And how do you know all that is not all in hand... TVR have everything to gain, and nothing to lose, by launching a car, that hasn't been drip fed for months on the internet/media etc. and keeping everything very close (they've even got a few hundred customers lines up for months worths of production. Launch in one hit, get all the press attention/ media attention, press cars to the magazines,etc. It is worth noting, major TVR articles in Autocar/Evo etc, covering lots of pages just recently. I expect TVR to look after it's heritage, parts heritage dealer network, etc.. BUT new customers will make TVR a success... I remember when, there were conversations about Griffiths/Tuscans/ etc trampling over the loyalty of older TVR cars/members. prices too high, forgetting owners loyal to the marque for decades. Powers is just an independant specialist looking after cars that are a decade out of production, lots of people are happy with them/that. I don't see TVR denigrating Powers Performance.. The process from here towards aesthetic confirmation is quite involved, before even considering b-surface work, practical engineering accommodations (Motions and clearances), servicing and accessibility simulation, legality assessments and impact on design/budget, door shingles, panel relationships and offsets, integration of plastics, final A-surface signoff and release, mould making, material specifications, tooling, testing.... prototype assembly, testing, feedback, testing, feedback, testing, changes, testing...
And then facilities setup, production line specification, line fitting, line testing, process organisation, certification, recruitment... purchasing, component testing, crash testing, homologation, type approval... and eventually a car will be put together - then rapidly dismantled to validate that they've not missed anything.
I've cut these lists short, but one day after this and more, a car will be born.
This of course is small volume and new, so it won't quite consume the £ in resources that a new market segment production Porsche might consume, but it still needs a
tonne of money - and more than you think. I'm not trying to be a naysayer, but there was a lump of clay under the blanket last year. A year on there really should be something more.
Edited by NuddyRap on Thursday 16th March 17:11
with respect to the public snide quote from Power to Les Edgar/TVR..
PowersPerformance said:
So they have an exterior clay model and a interior foam model = no actual car !
Wake up and smell the coffee Mr edgar do you really know how much it costs to actually develop a real car...
Dom
I'm sure Les Edgar knows exactly that- as does GORDON MURRAY, who is designing the car, and invested a great deal of Gordon Murray's industry credibility in the TVR brand - ie a major showcase for -iStream/iCarbon..
do we want to debate Dom's credibility in the car industry vs Gordon Murray..? ;-)
Edited by BJWoods on Thursday 16th March 17:56
Edited by BJWoods on Thursday 16th March 18:05
Dom
BeastMaster said:
Of course it does - because Gordon Murray and Cosworth are not going to allow TVR to ruin their reputation by building a dog in the same way Norman Foster would not allow his building designs to be marred by cowboy builders !!!
The new TVR (like all that have gone before) is not going to be, or expected to be a high reliability design like a modern small hatchback – it will be as TVR models that have gone before, a low volume, value for money high performance car first.
Anyway – it was never the design of the cars that caused the unreliability of them it was the build quality caused by rushing the things into the market place, something which is not happening today – so a good sign.
A massive and costly validation program and pre production process is no guarantee of high reliability and would make a low volume production run totally cost prohibitive, while also being pointless for such a narrow focused car.
Plus, my understanding of the deal with GMD is that it's a pretty much cradle to grave one. GMD are the people pretty much designing and delivering the whole thing with the TVR board over seeing the design brief and paying the bill. I'm sure it's going to be a pretty bill at that but part of the engaging of GMD to deliver the product and the factory set up will have been a pretty clear indication as to the size of that bill. The new TVR (like all that have gone before) is not going to be, or expected to be a high reliability design like a modern small hatchback – it will be as TVR models that have gone before, a low volume, value for money high performance car first.
Anyway – it was never the design of the cars that caused the unreliability of them it was the build quality caused by rushing the things into the market place, something which is not happening today – so a good sign.
A massive and costly validation program and pre production process is no guarantee of high reliability and would make a low volume production run totally cost prohibitive, while also being pointless for such a narrow focused car.
Last year people were saying that the project can't be happening as no one in the industry had been hired but obviously we now know that this was because everyone needed was already working at GMD. Now we have the issue that it takes gazillions to deliver a mass produced, global hatchback but that is a far more complex brief than a more singularly focussed sports car which has much less requirements to meet.
In many regards they aren't even reinventing the wheel. They're using a mass produced drive train supported by a firm more than capable of delivering. They will be using generic electronics and ancillaries. Sure, it's still a huge challenge and I'm sure a bloody expensive one but it is far from impossible and has obviously been done by others.
Most SniffPetrol form cars fail because they are stupid ugly and the dodgy, bejewelled spiv spearheading the project runs out of other people's money living the dream. But by all accounts this is a cracking looking car being built by a company which has done this before and being paid for by a consortium who have enough of their own money as well as access to clean, intelligent third party funds. To me this is what makes it very different from the atypical marque resurrection which has made a mockery of our domestic industry.
Besides, if they balls it up they will be on the run from a small army of pot-bellied, bald Northerners, not the usual whinging, zimmer-framed ponces writing stern letters to the Times about what's happened to Jensen or AC etc. And that's a pretty solid incentive to not take the piss .
DonkeyApple said:
[...] if they balls it up they will be on the run from a small army of pot-bellied, bald Northerners, not the usual whinging, zimmer-framed ponces writing stern letters to the Times about what's happened to Jensen or AC etc. And that's a pretty solid incentive to not take the piss .
^Thistvrolet said:
But re the weight and power, my Tuscan (challenge-based, not road-car-based) was weighed for the SuperLap series at Knockhill at 1140Kg - but that included driver (a lardy me), race gear...and since I wanted it to be as heavy as possible to avoid power/weight penalties...that was with a full tank of fuel (50 litres) and of course all other fluids ready to go. That means the car alone is near-enough 1000Kg..
Lol,...Wullie, there's no way that you weigh in at +/-100Kgs...!Enjoy the trip, I'm sure the new car will be very dynamic. It gets my vote regardless of what power it produces or looks like, at the end of the day... It's a TVR..!
octanetorque said:
DonkeyApple said:
[...] if they balls it up they will be on the run from a small army of pot-bellied, bald Northerners, not the usual whinging, zimmer-framed ponces writing stern letters to the Times about what's happened to Jensen or AC etc. And that's a pretty solid incentive to not take the piss .
^ThisRayTVR said:
TVRMs said:
Surely the name TVR is synonymous with poor quality and reliability??
If I park my 26 year old TVR S next to a 26 year old Sierra (from which many bits come) which do you think would be the most reliable to take me around Europe?Never owned a TVR before but interested in this. What is the deal with the deposits ? Since I'm so late to it, I assume all the 500 initial allocations have been taken. If I put a deposit down now, worse case I'll be in the list for a later car and best case I could get one of the initial 500 should enough people drop out ?
Seen it yesterday. Liked it very much. Point that amazed me most was, how modern it actually looked and how deceiving the wraps have been. Looked very different from what i was expecting. Great rear, anyone behind will understand there's something serious in front of them.
Does anyone agree with me if i say, that if one likes the general direction of the Ferrari F12, he'll probably like this one, too ?
Does anyone agree with me if i say, that if one likes the general direction of the Ferrari F12, he'll probably like this one, too ?
and no Tvr 
bullittmcqueen said:
Seen it yesterday. Liked it very much. Point that amazed me most was, how modern it actually looked and how deceiving the wraps have been. Looked very different from what i was expecting. Great rear, anyone behind will understand there's something serious in front of them.
Does anyone agree with me if i say, that if one likes the general direction of the Ferrari F12, he'll probably like this one, too ?
Absolutely can't wait!Does anyone agree with me if i say, that if one likes the general direction of the Ferrari F12, he'll probably like this one, too ?
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