New TVR still under wraps!

[HarryW]

nrick said:

Here you go

That's great, thanks. What year was that brochure?

Sag = £58k
Tuscan = £46k
Tuscan S = £55k

[nrick]

I think it was the last one 2006/07

[DonkeyApple]

Dread to think how much a Sagaris would actually cost today if they were built the same way. Massively labour intensive and the cost of that labour has spiralled in the last decade. And in today's market you'd need better labour and a few more hours to get the better quality required. You could be looking at double that price in today's world.

[nrick]

The biggest issue if you ask me is that there wasn't a R8 or Mclaren or any number of alternatives when the Sag was rolling out of Blackpool. I think Peter saw the writing on the wall, maybe it was just coincidence?

I was the same thing in the junior sports car market when Mazda launched the MX5, it was very hard for anybody to compete with the fit, finish and reliability of the mass produced cars.

I have a Tuscan vert and I have looked at several Sags, but with MP412c's hitting 110k repeatably with good finance/warranty etc it is a good proposition, likewise a V10 R8 with the service network etc.

This area is tough at the moment with

Bentley GT - Great car 4sec 0-60 25k and up
Maserati GT - Great looking 25k and up
Aston V8 vantage 30k+
Aston DB9 - 35k +
Sag 70k
Tuscan vert 35+
R8 40k+
Gallardo
Ferrari's by the score 355 through California,
BMW's by the dozen M3/M4/M5/Z4
Mclaren 12c (with finance could be in the same ballpark) (570s is currently 30k down and £1k a month with carbon tub, carbon brakes and great cabin)

to mention just a few.

The killer will not be the body or the engine IMHO but all those little bits of trim and the detail bits, we as consumers have got a lot more fussy. My Mk1 Tuscan was a nightmare of spilt glue and poor finish. The level is very high that they are competing at. Can they find enough enthusiasts for the LE models, I would guess so. On going sustainability is a more difficult challenge. The levels people are spending at this are staggering to try to stay ahead.

What do I love about my TVR

Simple mechanics
Noise
Different
UK built
Character

Do I wish them well, of course but we can't underestimate the challenge.

Farbio anyone? http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-reviews/farbio/fa...

Obviously just my views, I am a TVR enthusiast and I'll keep a good eye on the news

What would I buy at the moment - 570s ............

[HarryW]

DonkeyApple said:

Dread to think how much a Sagaris would actually cost today if they were built the same way. Massively labour intensive and the cost of that labour has spiralled in the last decade. And in today's market you'd need better labour and a few more hours to get the better quality required. You could be looking at double that price in today's world.

Yes and no.... I know we've been around this buoy before...

As set out below list for Sags was £58k and Tuscan £46k in 2006. At that time a V8V was just over £81k, today they are just under £90k. Likewise a C2 porker was just over £59k and today they are just under £77k. Astons have risen by approx 11%, pork by 29%. If you apply those escalators to TVR then the Tuscan equivilent would be £51-59k and the Sag £65-75k. I suspect that simplistic reckoning was used when last year the predicted new TVR pricing would be between £55-75k. The limited number Cayman GT4 had a list of under £65k, it was everything the new TVR aspires too, a manual back to basics raw sports car with minimal computer aiding.

[DonkeyApple]

HarryW said:

Yes and no.... I know we've been around this buoy before...

As set out below list for Sags was £58k and Tuscan £46k in 2006. At that time a V8V was just over £81k, today they are just under £90k. Likewise a C2 porker was just over £59k and today they are just under £77k. Astons have risen by approx 11%, pork by 29%. If you apply those escalators to TVR then the Tuscan equivilent would be £51-59k and the Sag £65-75k. I suspect that simplistic reckoning was used when last year the predicted new TVR pricing would be between £55-75k. The limited number Cayman GT4 had a list of under £65k, it was everything the new TVR aspires too, a manual back to basics raw sports car with minimal computer aiding.

I agree completely. I was more thinking of the actual cost to build the Sagaris today as it was so labour intensive would mean that if you wanted to include a profit margin it would be a very expensive car today. I think it is only possible to build such a car now and have a price point that is remotely viable if you use modern techniques to dramatically reduce the man hours of the build and run a very efficient line.

And as the poster above mentions, the alternatives today that are available are quite superb. You've got to genuinely want a TVR over all of them and I hope enough people do.

[Englishman]

DonkeyApple said:

You've got to genuinely want a TVR over all of them and I hope enough people do.

I think that is the crux of the business case for the new car.

After the peak in the 'old' TVR sales, they really struggled to sell in the noughties. I know this was partly down to the poor reputation of the S6 engine, but even before this, sales were sluggish. I well remember dealers having Griffith 500 SE's they just couldn't move.

When the Sagaris came along, everyone loved the look of it, but only a total of ~200 sales were actually made. Yes, this was cut-short by the factory closure, but they were never going to sell in the volume mooted for the new car.

I love TVR's and like many on here, will buy the new one eventually. But I do wonder where the other 75% of buyers are.

[ThePrisoner]

Chaps... nice Synopsis of the fortunes of TVR past and Present. Let's just see what the 'Car Clinic' Depositors think of the new TVR. I for one can't wait.

[m4tti]

What's the provisional date of the car clinic. Has it been communicated.

[Byker28i]

Nrick said:
This area is tough at the moment with...

Ok lets actually look at new prices as you cant really compare new to used.

Bentley GT - Great car 4sec 0-60 25k and up - New Bentley Continental GT Speed prices start from £168,300
http://www.hrowen.co.uk/bentley/continental-gt-spe...

Maserati GT - Great looking 25k and up - New are £85-125K plus very costly to run.

Aston V8 vantage - £95k-£165K

Aston DB9 - £140K+

Ferrari's by the score 355 through California, Expensive to buy new, even more expensive to run
BMW's by the dozen M3/M4/M5/Z4 - yeah but who wants a mass produced car every knob drives?

Mclaren 12c (with finance could be in the same ballpark) (570s is currently 30k down and £1k a month with carbon tub, carbon brakes and great cabin)
But again very expensive new, expensive to run.

So yes plenty of other cars if you don't buy new, but thats not really a comparison?

Might as well say get a 1000cc motorbike for £10k, it's a 2 seater, faster, cheaper to run/insure....

[m4tti]

Byker28i said:

Nrick said:
This area is tough at the moment with...

Ok lets actually look at new prices as you cant really compare new to used.

Bentley GT - Great car 4sec 0-60 25k and up - New Bentley Continental GT Speed prices start from £168,300
http://www.hrowen.co.uk/bentley/continental-gt-spe...

Maserati GT - Great looking 25k and up - New are £85-125K plus very costly to run.

Aston V8 vantage - £95k-£165K

Aston DB9 - £140K+

Ferrari's by the score 355 through California, Expensive to buy new, even more expensive to run
BMW's by the dozen M3/M4/M5/Z4 - yeah but who wants a mass produced car every knob drives?

Mclaren 12c (with finance could be in the same ballpark) (570s is currently 30k down and £1k a month with carbon tub, carbon brakes and great cabin)
But again very expensive new, expensive to run.

So yes plenty of other cars if you don't buy new, but thats not really a comparison?

Might as well say get a 1000cc motorbike for £10k, it's a 2 seater, faster, cheaper to run/insure....

You have to take the used nearly new cars into consideration. The cars above will typically be available as "approved used" from their respective brand dealers. To many people, even if they have the money to buy the above mentioned cars new they simply won't as it makes poor economic sense. At 3 - 5 years old still with main dealer support they make huge sense.

[nrick]

Byker28i said:

Nrick said:
This area is tough at the moment with...

Ok lets actually look at new prices as you cant really compare new to used.


Might as well say get a 1000cc motorbike for £10k, it's a 2 seater, faster, cheaper to run/insure....

If I only had £10k then I know what I'd buy

So lets take a hypothetical case study.

A bloke worked hard all his life in his mid 40's , kids getting older (but no cheaper), doing ok for himself. Had a bit of luck and fancies a bit of a treat, therefore he has a cash in his pocket (and a bit of finance if needed). He is a TVR enthusiast, can twirl the spanners if needed, has owned a couple of them in the past. He is well aware of the old adage 'if it drives, fly's, floats or f***s then rent it' . He is looking for a weekend toy, will do 2-6k a year in it, not too worried about running costs as long as they are realistic and not too worried about having a new car as it is a terrible idea UNLESS you keeping the car forever as then you can have it how you want., but this guy isn't too fussed about that although it could be a consideration. He thinks buying new cars is a mugs game unless you can afford the depreciation or you are on a PCP type deal.

So these are the choices he is looking at in no particular order and the reason why.

TVR - Heart decision but no details on price, service network, warranty, residuals or reliability (There is a limit to how many times a car can let you down (S6 engine syndrome)

Audi R8 - The head choice V10 NA, sound to die for, dealer network, warranty, residuals and perceived reliability. A great car, great cabin, great engine, lots of tech, mainstream? Still don't see that many on the road

Bentley GT - Currently has one and loves it, fast, comfortable, british made, fierce depreciation but a good buy 2nd hand. For the likely cost of the TVR could get a 2yo Speed, great dealer experience, great image (Mostly if you ignore the footballers who supply the used cars to the market)

Maserati GT - Beautiful car from almost any angle. 4.7 better than 4.2 and known to throw a few wobbles every now and then. Beautiful sound and uncommon with a great image. not a sportscar though and performance not in line with the looks, but a great car and on the bucket list just for the epic noise.

Aston's - a great selection of 2nd hand cars with the Vanquish at a push (120k) which is the only Aston in my mind that matches the others. However the DBS, DB9 and Vantage are all epic cars. They have suffered from a lack of cash for development but the DB11 looks a feels a real step up for the brand. The V12 was getting a bit long in the tooth but sounds epic as well. Great Brand image and a great service network. Vanquish is epic and on the list definitely.

Ferrari's - Doesn't every enthusiast aspire to have a lady in the garage, they are simply stunning to look at, the engines tend to be great, no so much a lover of the turbo's as it is always difficult to get a great sound out of (Bentley, Maclaren etc) Now they aren't the most robust and they do like attention but my god that engine is to die for. They are expensive with good residuals which is a double edged sword.

Mclaren - Just great, I love them all. 12c/650 epic supercars, 540/570 more usable day to day with carbon tubs, Spyders and great user experience. Downside can be they are like most things Mclaren faultlessly technically competent but maybe lacking a little spirit in the way the Ferrari makes boys weep on startup I just think they are a little ahead of the group with turbo's and unfortunately I think this is the end of an era for NA. Their finance deals are very compelling.

And there are others but this is the shortlist

My point is the consumer makes their choice based on a number of factors and that you have to consider the competition at that price point.

Would I drive a 2nd hand 599 over a new Merc, absolutely but at this price point £60-120k there is a lot of places to put your cash and some of those cars are epic. Most people won't pay cash for these cars so it is about what the deposit/monthly payment is on a PCP type arrangement. The more confidence in residuals the lower the monthly payment. That Mclaren deal is a really compelling deal

Just a hypothetical discussion so there are no right answers.

[unrepentant]

HarryW said:

Yes and no.... I know we've been around this buoy before...

As set out below list for Sags was £58k and Tuscan £46k in 2006. At that time a V8V was just over £81k, today they are just under £90k. Likewise a C2 porker was just over £59k and today they are just under £77k. Astons have risen by approx 11%, pork by 29%. If you apply those escalators to TVR then the Tuscan equivilent would be £51-59k and the Sag £65-75k. I suspect that simplistic reckoning was used when last year the predicted new TVR pricing would be between £55-75k. The limited number Cayman GT4 had a list of under £65k, it was everything the new TVR aspires too, a manual back to basics raw sports car with minimal computer aiding.

You missed out the fact that TVR were losing money on every car. That's umm..... why they went out of business. The pricing model didn't work.

[HarryW]

unrepentant said:

HarryW said:

Yes and no.... I know we've been around this buoy before...

As set out below list for Sags was £58k and Tuscan £46k in 2006. At that time a V8V was just over £81k, today they are just under £90k. Likewise a C2 porker was just over £59k and today they are just under £77k. Astons have risen by approx 11%, pork by 29%. If you apply those escalators to TVR then the Tuscan equivilent would be £51-59k and the Sag £65-75k. I suspect that simplistic reckoning was used when last year the predicted new TVR pricing would be between £55-75k. The limited number Cayman GT4 had a list of under £65k, it was everything the new TVR aspires too, a manual back to basics raw sports car with minimal computer aiding.

You missed out the fact that TVR were losing money on every car. That's umm..... why they went out of business. The pricing model didn't work.

Don't try to get all factual .... I think it fair to assume inefficiency of production had more to do with that, they were starved of cash whilst haemorrhaging it too.

If you believe the hype of iStream then they should be able to assemble them for record industry low cost per unit. The strap line is is will punch above its weight as TVRs have always done, knocking the door of your competition is not punching above your weight.

The point I was making is where I believe their natural market segment is, yes it can grow from there but the initial market is the pre existing fan base. The step back into the market is very price sensitive IMHO, too high and they will fold before they've reestablished themselves.

Don't get me wrong as a fan I want them to succeed.

[rev-erend]

Like all fans.

We need real pictures.

[unrepentant]

HarryW said:

Don't try to get all factual .... I think it fair to assume inefficiency of production had more to do with that, they were starved of cash whilst haemorrhaging it too.

If you believe the hype of iStream then they should be able to assemble them for record industry low cost per unit. The strap line is is will punch above its weight as TVRs have always done, knocking the door of your competition is not punching above your weight.

The point I was making is where I believe their natural market segment is, yes it can grow from there but the initial market is the pre existing fan base. The step back into the market is very price sensitive IMHO, too high and they will fold before they've reestablished themselves.

Don't get me wrong as a fan I want them to succeed.

The market is totally different from where it was when the factory closed 10 years ago. When I bought my Tuscans nothing could come close to them for 40k and my Sag at 50k........ Now there is more competition from major manufacturers with proper resources who can sell a quality performance product for the same money that a proposed TVR would sell for and back it up with a real warranty and great after sales. The niche players that have tried since then like Weissmann and Marcos have produced decent product but have failed as businesses.

The product line up in 2005 of T350, Tuscan, Tamora and Sagaris was brilliant. The cars were fast, cheap and gorgeous. Build quality had improved and reliability had become less of an issue. Smolenski spent a lot of money. The one thing they lacked was buyers and the market has evolved and become more competitive since then.

[glow worm]

unrepentant said:

The market is totally different from where it was when the factory closed 10 years ago. When I bought my Tuscans nothing could come close to them for 40k and my Sag at 50k........ Now there is more competition from major manufacturers with proper resources who can sell a quality performance product for the same money that a proposed TVR would sell for and back it up with a real warranty and great after sales. The niche players that have tried since then like Weissmann and Marcos have produced decent product but have failed as businesses.

The product line up in 2005 of T350, Tuscan, Tamora and Sagaris was brilliant. The cars were fast, cheap and gorgeous. Build quality had improved and reliability had become less of an issue. Smolenski spent a lot of money. The one thing they lacked was buyers and the market has evolved and become more competitive since then.

+1 ... Very true ... Most Tuscans and Sags in 2006 were built as cars for Stock and not from customer orders !!!

[DonkeyApple]

unrepentant said:

The market is totally different from where it was when the factory closed 10 years ago. When I bought my Tuscans nothing could come close to them for 40k and my Sag at 50k........ Now there is more competition from major manufacturers with proper resources who can sell a quality performance product for the same money that a proposed TVR would sell for and back it up with a real warranty and great after sales. The niche players that have tried since then like Weissmann and Marcos have produced decent product but have failed as businesses.

The product line up in 2005 of T350, Tuscan, Tamora and Sagaris was brilliant. The cars were fast, cheap and gorgeous. Build quality had improved and reliability had become less of an issue. Smolenski spent a lot of money. The one thing they lacked was buyers and the market has evolved and become more competitive since then.

Yup the changes over the last decade are enormous when you think about it.

The kind of tolerance that TVR buyers had 10-20 years ago has, I think, all but disappeared from today's consumers. Expectations appear far greater.

At the same time, the Crunch, zero wage inflation, house price inflation and changing spending patterns that see more spent on media etc have all have monumental impacts on the UK demographic that you would typically associate with being TVR customers.

Any car will have to be far superior to what used to roll out of the old factory and most buyers will need to be from what is a rather small demographic in the UK.

They need to be commercially viable with much lower volumes than TVR of old while also appealing to today's high consumer demographic which is possibly not overly related to recent past or current TVR owner demographics.

It's a huge ask.

[unrepentant]

DonkeyApple said:

Yup the changes over the last decade are enormous when you think about it.

The kind of tolerance that TVR buyers had 10-20 years ago has, I think, all but disappeared from today's consumers. Expectations appear far greater.

The snagging list on my second Tuscan ran to nearly 50 items! The luxury car buyer (if it's over 50k pounds it's in that sector) expects the car to be perfect when they take delivery. I've seen customers flipped out of brand new cars into another because of relatively minor issues. Then there's the little things. I remember driving home in the parts van once when my TVR was being serviced because that was all they had! Now you'd better have a fleet of new luxury loaners for the customers to drive. It's a different game now.

[DonkeyApple]

unrepentant said:

DonkeyApple said:

Yup the changes over the last decade are enormous when you think about it.

The kind of tolerance that TVR buyers had 10-20 years ago has, I think, all but disappeared from today's consumers. Expectations appear far greater.

The snagging list on my second Tuscan ran to nearly 50 items! The luxury car buyer (if it's over 50k pounds it's in that sector) expects the car to be perfect when they take delivery. I've seen customers flipped out of brand new cars into another because of relatively minor issues. Then there's the little things. I remember driving home in the parts van once when my TVR was being serviced because that was all they had! Now you'd better have a fleet of new luxury loaners for the customers to drive. It's a different game now.

Yup. The world has moved on rapidly. However, a much more mechanised production technique that is far from reliant on an army of inconsistent labour combined with competent quality control can address an awful lot. The other things should be covered by professional oversight of the dealers, which I assume is standard in the main industry?

I'm optimistic as none of this is exactly rocket science and I suspect TVR of old just had a corner cutting ethos that they were able to get away for a long time.