New TVR still under wraps!
Discussion
900T-R said:
Max_Torque said:
It's also worth remembering that the GT4 team almost certainly had a bigger sum of money in their "get some nice biscuits in for those long dull engineering meetings" budget than new TVR have for the whole car.....
In 2016, to be as good as the best you need not just brilliant engineers, but also access to good facilities, good data processors, good procedures, repeatable, reliable data acquisition, and above all, lots and lots of time to calibrate and optimise your car, and that all costs money. Lots and lots of money!
But as we are talking a road sports car here, where the subjective dynamic performance is the main differentiator, *who* is doing the dynamic development - and the general ethos/culture of the development team - seems to be far more important. In 2016, to be as good as the best you need not just brilliant engineers, but also access to good facilities, good data processors, good procedures, repeatable, reliable data acquisition, and above all, lots and lots of time to calibrate and optimise your car, and that all costs money. Lots and lots of money!
I am in no doubt that FCA's facilities and budgets are massively bigger than Lotus'. So why do Lotus consistently get the ride, handling and steering bang on target, and why does Alfa Romeo get it all wrong with the 4C (as well as pretty much everything else they launched over the past decade or so)?
Also, I suspect that the development budget and team for specialist products of mainstream operations aren't actually that much bigger than those for the core product of small OEMs. And for a good reason too, as you don't want a specialist product watered down through endless layers of corporate red tape which will also load huge overhead costs on such projects.
FWIW I understand that GMD are doing the dynamics of the car, could be good.
The next gen TVR isn't going to the the fastest car around the ring or even the fastest car for the money around the ring.
What it will be though is an awesome DRIVERS car. When Gordon Murray designed the McLaren F1 he wanted the vehicle to be an adaptation of the human body. So much so that he placed the driver in the middle of the cockpit and he contracted BMW to build a high HP high revving naturally aspirated motor because he felt that a forced induction motor would not be as pure. Almost 25 years later and (to my knowledge) no one has built a naturally aspirated vehicle capable of 240+ mph. A true testament to fine engineering.
What it will be though is an awesome DRIVERS car. When Gordon Murray designed the McLaren F1 he wanted the vehicle to be an adaptation of the human body. So much so that he placed the driver in the middle of the cockpit and he contracted BMW to build a high HP high revving naturally aspirated motor because he felt that a forced induction motor would not be as pure. Almost 25 years later and (to my knowledge) no one has built a naturally aspirated vehicle capable of 240+ mph. A true testament to fine engineering.
The F1 was the no-compromise, no expense spared embodiment of the vision of one person: Gordon Murray.
By all accounts, it was (and is) awesome and will always stand as a high watermark in sports car design, maybe even the absolute zenith of the breed from a drving perspective.
Conversely, the McMerc was a gaudi 'Disco Deutschland' show car concept from the Fatherland that McLaren was supposed to make do with and turn into a dynamic reality, and as a result it was compromised from the start. Still pretty good, but - by accounts again - slightly missing the mark on several aspects.
I suppose the new TVR will be somewhere inbetween. The basic layout for a TVR is a given, although I am sure that GM has been given far more artistic license from LE than he got within the Mercedes-McLaren collaboration - but of course there are stricter cost constraints, too. Of course, the unknown bit is how much of a competitive advantage the iStream construction c.q. process actually gives.
By all accounts, it was (and is) awesome and will always stand as a high watermark in sports car design, maybe even the absolute zenith of the breed from a drving perspective.
Conversely, the McMerc was a gaudi 'Disco Deutschland' show car concept from the Fatherland that McLaren was supposed to make do with and turn into a dynamic reality, and as a result it was compromised from the start. Still pretty good, but - by accounts again - slightly missing the mark on several aspects.
I suppose the new TVR will be somewhere inbetween. The basic layout for a TVR is a given, although I am sure that GM has been given far more artistic license from LE than he got within the Mercedes-McLaren collaboration - but of course there are stricter cost constraints, too. Of course, the unknown bit is how much of a competitive advantage the iStream construction c.q. process actually gives.
bridgdav said:
It does not surprise me .. many foundrys have been forced to shut in the UK as the EU has forced changeswhich makes manufacturing in the UK much more expensive.
So no surprise that companies like Cosworth are moving to other countries, so we may well
see closures in the UK in the near future.
It will be interesting to see what Cosworth produce for TVR.
Edited by rev-erend on Thursday 26th May 13:17
Maybe Cosworth's analysis of the Coyote heads has produced a list of enhancements that could be made, and they went to Ford with these, saying "your engine's pretty good but the heads could be improved. We can modify your existing heads to give X, but what we really need are design changes Y" and Ford said, "Thanks for that. Who are you again? 
We're not going to take the risk of making those changes, the Mustang orders are strong but thanks anyway. But we are interested in what you've found. How about we lend you some money to set up a production facility and if the improvements are really as good as you say, we could come to some agreement and who knows, we could even call the loan a grant? If you don't deliver on your promises you pay the money back."
edit: I was kidding that Ford wouldn't know who Cosworth are
We're not going to take the risk of making those changes, the Mustang orders are strong but thanks anyway. But we are interested in what you've found. How about we lend you some money to set up a production facility and if the improvements are really as good as you say, we could come to some agreement and who knows, we could even call the loan a grant? If you don't deliver on your promises you pay the money back."edit: I was kidding that Ford wouldn't know who Cosworth are
Edited by FarmyardPants on Thursday 26th May 16:21
Cosworth have had a factory in the US for years and build engines for Indy and Champ cars so I don't think there is anything new about this.
I'd hazard that this money is more about Ford keeping what Cosworth produce in the US related to Ford power plants rather than risking Cosworth switching to GM or someone else?
To me it just reads like a basic retainer deal for their existing US business and I bet the deal comes with various exclusivity agreements and first rights in the small print.
As far as I am aware, the TVR engines will be Ford units reworked in Cosworth's European hub, which is in Northampton.
I'd hazard that this money is more about Ford keeping what Cosworth produce in the US related to Ford power plants rather than risking Cosworth switching to GM or someone else?
To me it just reads like a basic retainer deal for their existing US business and I bet the deal comes with various exclusivity agreements and first rights in the small print.
As far as I am aware, the TVR engines will be Ford units reworked in Cosworth's European hub, which is in Northampton.
Doesn't make sense for Cosworth to be setting this up off the back of the TVR deal. Just not enough volume for it to be viable. Timeline of 2018 also doesn't align.
I suspect they'll be making the parts for a larger volume manufacturer such as Audi or someone who has gone to Cosworth for engines before. If the TVR venture goes well then they'll probably move production to here but that'll be well down the line imho.
I suspect they'll be making the parts for a larger volume manufacturer such as Audi or someone who has gone to Cosworth for engines before. If the TVR venture goes well then they'll probably move production to here but that'll be well down the line imho.
Englishman said:
The vast majority of people commenting here are long time TVR owners, but for the new TVR to be a success they have to sell not only to us, but also to those that have never bought a TVR. To my mind that is hard part, so I thought it’d be interesting to see why we all bought our first TVR’s, perhaps as a pointer to attracting new buyers.
In my case it was a Taimar, in 1980, and having previously lived with a Lotus Elan that was always going wrong and costing more than I had at the time to keep it on the road, I was looking for three things – performance per £, sporty looks, fun to drive and more solid engineering than Lotus at the time. Yes, TVR’s were/are not as reliable as some makes, but I can count the number of roadside breakdowns in over 30 years on one hand.
My reasons for buying TVR’s haven’t changed much over the years, but what about you?
Its that 9 year old boy poster on the wall thing. The looks the noise from that age. In my case it was a Taimar, in 1980, and having previously lived with a Lotus Elan that was always going wrong and costing more than I had at the time to keep it on the road, I was looking for three things – performance per £, sporty looks, fun to drive and more solid engineering than Lotus at the time. Yes, TVR’s were/are not as reliable as some makes, but I can count the number of roadside breakdowns in over 30 years on one hand.
My reasons for buying TVR’s haven’t changed much over the years, but what about you?
Now - those two plus the two fingers up to a health and safety, marketing b
ks, eco obsessed, everyone must conform, over regulated world.So no a new TVR doesn't interest me, not because I think Les and co are doing a bad job but because the constraints regulation will place on them will mean the product is diluted from what a TVR in my mind should be
Edited by PuffsBack on Thursday 26th May 20:13
unrepentant said:
Cosworth USA are based right here in Indianapolis along with hundreds of other motorsport businesses. Surprising that they'd sink $30 million (which doesn't sound like much?) into a factory just to makes engines for TVR. If they are they have balls of steel!
Yup. It's got nothing to do with TVR. The US factory exists for US deals and almost all of those in recent years have been about racing and using Ford units as a base. I'm not sure who has linked this to TVR but I feel that it is a red herring and whoever thought there was a link didn't appreciate that Cosworth has had a major US set up for decades.
The Tiv units will be put together in the UK.
Heliox said:
Its soooo good TVR is back in safe hands.
Can we at least wait till a few customers are happy before we break open the champagne?I remember back when people talked like this about smolenski.
So far its little more than smoke and mirrors, not helped by the less than upfront visual design.
On Top Gear (Extra Gear) it says 5 new models by 2017... I thought I'd be following this topic quite closely.Five?
For those that haven't seen it http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p03w1dcs/top-... at 14.27
For those that haven't seen it http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p03w1dcs/top-... at 14.27
900T-R said:
What TVRs have on offer goes beyond all the usual metrics - it's owning something trim and deliciously curvecaous with a just a hint of menace in a time that every other new car seems to be a hideously overblown, gratuituously aggressive road hogging thing. It's the symphony of mechanical, induction and exhaust sounds - loud, yes, but also very intricate and multi-layered where performance cars nowadays seem to be all about shock and fart. It's the intimacy and the outrageous design of the cabin. But most of all, it's the feeling that you're part of this amazing, bonkers machine as it goes down the road.
It's such a totally absorbing experience that you forgive the indifferent way in which it's put together or the odd, frustrating glitch that rears it's ugly head in a totally random fashion.
It's the closest thing, I guess, to owning one of the big-league 1960s sports racers - but one that grips and brakes like a modern car, isn't drafty or overly leaky; that you can use to get away for the weekend, or a week, with your other half and all your luggage, that works most of the time and at worst costs thousands instead of second mortgage money if it doesn't.
Does a Singer Porsche or Eagle E-type for several hundred thousand pounds *really* offer modern supercar performance? Of course they don't, but they're close enough for it being irrelevant on our roads, and for people like us they offer so much more at all the 'intangibles' that people happily pay amounts for them that would also have got them in the driver's seat of the fastest modern hypercars.
Take a zero off the price tags and correspondingly compromise on the jewel-like/'concours' build quality in favour of a more workmanlike approach, and you are at TVR (new and old) heartland. The competition for TVR is not a GT-R or a new Porsche, the competition is likely a classic Brit sports car or building some sort of project car like an outlaw 911.
I hope you don't mind but I used a few of your adjectives for the closing credits of this video.It's such a totally absorbing experience that you forgive the indifferent way in which it's put together or the odd, frustrating glitch that rears it's ugly head in a totally random fashion.
It's the closest thing, I guess, to owning one of the big-league 1960s sports racers - but one that grips and brakes like a modern car, isn't drafty or overly leaky; that you can use to get away for the weekend, or a week, with your other half and all your luggage, that works most of the time and at worst costs thousands instead of second mortgage money if it doesn't.
Does a Singer Porsche or Eagle E-type for several hundred thousand pounds *really* offer modern supercar performance? Of course they don't, but they're close enough for it being irrelevant on our roads, and for people like us they offer so much more at all the 'intangibles' that people happily pay amounts for them that would also have got them in the driver's seat of the fastest modern hypercars.
Take a zero off the price tags and correspondingly compromise on the jewel-like/'concours' build quality in favour of a more workmanlike approach, and you are at TVR (new and old) heartland. The competition for TVR is not a GT-R or a new Porsche, the competition is likely a classic Brit sports car or building some sort of project car like an outlaw 911.
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