New TVR still under wraps!
Discussion
rb26 said:
Agreed with what's been said here generally. Anything over £80K for the entry level and its going to be a lame duck. Unless it really is going to 'redefine' the market as we know it.
Fact is, the vast majority of higher end sports car buyers don't want to be challenged. They want something fast but very easy to master so they don't look like a total wazzer for sticking their pride into the nearest hedge.
So what does it sound like we have? Basically a resurrected car company; world renowned for their poor reliability and build quality,producing a totally unproven car for £80+K. Do they seriously think this is going to sell well?
They'd have been better targetting the 40-60k range, used the speed 6 engine, which is still emissions compliant if I'm not mistaken. Then build off that foundation.
I hope it's a success, I do. However I have serious concerns about this now. I think people are more likely to take an extravagant gamble on a £45-50k car, than something knocking on the door of a tonne...
They would be dead with speed six, no future in the engine (and a tainted history, not great for a re-launch) , they are going with a bomb proof V8 lightly breathed on by Cosworth. Fact is, the vast majority of higher end sports car buyers don't want to be challenged. They want something fast but very easy to master so they don't look like a total wazzer for sticking their pride into the nearest hedge.
So what does it sound like we have? Basically a resurrected car company; world renowned for their poor reliability and build quality,producing a totally unproven car for £80+K. Do they seriously think this is going to sell well?
They'd have been better targetting the 40-60k range, used the speed 6 engine, which is still emissions compliant if I'm not mistaken. Then build off that foundation.
I hope it's a success, I do. However I have serious concerns about this now. I think people are more likely to take an extravagant gamble on a £45-50k car, than something knocking on the door of a tonne...
And I can't imagine Gordon Murray getting involved in a throwback.
TVR is not targeting the vast majority though.. they are targeting a small fraction of that.. manual, light, high power to weight, etc.
the type of driver who is unlikely to stick it in a hedge, and wants something without all the electronic frippery and a manual (though ABS and traction, are included, also with a total off button) something different... Gordon Murray is critical of the weight of modern sports cars.. so this should be good.
BJWoods said:
HarryW said:
Given the original price banded about was £55-75k, everyone lumped in with their deposits based on that estimate. Then there was talk of the LE being closer to £85k, even though the upgrade for the LE bits were previously cited as free to deposit holders as a thank you for showing good faith. The main stream car that followed on from the LE was also banded about as coming in at around £65k a the same time. A slightly later interview put the LE as sub £100k, probably just a holding reply given to a jornos question.
Not read the EVO article yet myself, but I think the price used in there is higher yet again, heard £120k mentioned for the LE.
Personally I'm waiting for the customer reveal and official price announcement, which is sometime this summer. Anything else is just guess work.
No - the upgrades to LE were not said to be 'free'..Not read the EVO article yet myself, but I think the price used in there is higher yet again, heard £120k mentioned for the LE.
Personally I'm waiting for the customer reveal and official price announcement, which is sometime this summer. Anything else is just guess work.
Originally the LE spec was to be cheaper than ordering all the bits off the option list, compared to a standard car.
When later on IStream Carbon was announced, this was going to be 'free' as part of LE spec
Edited by BJWoods on Tuesday 9th August 20:13
It's not looking like a special engine is it, Cosworth seem to have said they've not touched the internals, just exhaust and mapping to make the necessary power. I'm presuming it already based on the High compression Aluminator version of the Coyote, which comes as a 500hp engine out of the crate from Ford Racing.
The Aero? I would expect that across the models and not be limited to the LE.
3 way adjustable suspension perhaps? A couple of £k over normal maybe.
Fancy trim? Again no more in the real world than a few £k than you'd have to do to a basic car, TVRs have always had good interiors so I wouldn't expect them to step back from that as standard.
Any thoughts on the subject?
Or we can wait until the reveal, I'm looking forward to it.
However I do hope they give proper notice though, my work diary pretty much runs at 3 months ahead, I'd hate to miss it for want of poor planning.
Good god, how long is it going to be before some twerp/dreamer again touts a Griffith reboot with a Speed Six for 30 grand is the way forward and something they would be "in like a shot with". :eyesroll:
For the umpteenth time, this is 2016, not 1996. Speed Six is 20 year old tech and simply cannot be made 2016 emissions compliant without it being a completely new engine costing tens of millions to develop, and end up being nothing like the original Speed Six. The only thing it would share would be a name.
For the umpteenth time, this is 2016, not 1996. Speed Six is 20 year old tech and simply cannot be made 2016 emissions compliant without it being a completely new engine costing tens of millions to develop, and end up being nothing like the original Speed Six. The only thing it would share would be a name.
HarryW said:
Be interesting to know what extras there are then, I pretty much took carbon as the only real extra.
It's not looking like a special engine is it, Cosworth seem to have said they've not touched the internals, just exhaust and mapping to make the necessary power. I'm presuming it already based on the High compression Aluminator version of the Coyote, which comes as a 500hp engine out of the crate from Ford Racing.
The Aero? I would expect that across the models and not be limited to the LE.
3 way adjustable suspension perhaps? A couple of £k over normal maybe.
Fancy trim? Again no more in the real world than a few £k than you'd have to do to a basic car, TVRs have always had good interiors so I wouldn't expect them to step back from that as standard.
Any thoughts on the subject?
Or we can wait until the reveal, I'm looking forward to it.
However I do hope they give proper notice though, my work diary pretty much runs at 3 months ahead, I'd hate to miss it for want of poor planning.
The aero sounds like it might be quite radical. (For a car in the price bracket) Not just wings and spoilers. .It's not looking like a special engine is it, Cosworth seem to have said they've not touched the internals, just exhaust and mapping to make the necessary power. I'm presuming it already based on the High compression Aluminator version of the Coyote, which comes as a 500hp engine out of the crate from Ford Racing.
The Aero? I would expect that across the models and not be limited to the LE.
3 way adjustable suspension perhaps? A couple of £k over normal maybe.
Fancy trim? Again no more in the real world than a few £k than you'd have to do to a basic car, TVRs have always had good interiors so I wouldn't expect them to step back from that as standard.
Any thoughts on the subject?
Or we can wait until the reveal, I'm looking forward to it.
However I do hope they give proper notice though, my work diary pretty much runs at 3 months ahead, I'd hate to miss it for want of poor planning.
Target of 400 bhp per tonne (wet weight) is higher than some current Mclarens ....
Yes. I'm still a bit puzzled what the options actually will be for LE spec.as I think the engine was going to be the same. (Conversation on motorshow stand)
HarryW said:
Be interesting to know what extras there are then, I pretty much took carbon as the only real extra.
It's not looking like a special engine is it, Cosworth seem to have said they've not touched the internals, just exhaust and mapping to make the necessary power. I'm presuming it already based on the High compression Aluminator version of the Coyote, which comes as a 500hp engine out of the crate from Ford Racing.
The Aero? I would expect that across the models and not be limited to the LE.
3 way adjustable suspension perhaps? A couple of £k over normal maybe.
Fancy trim? Again no more in the real world than a few £k than you'd have to do to a basic car, TVRs have always had good interiors so I wouldn't expect them to step back from that as standard.
Any thoughts on the subject?
Or we can wait until the reveal, I'm looking forward to it.
However I do hope they give proper notice though, my work diary pretty much runs at 3 months ahead, I'd hate to miss it for want of poor planning.
Aluminator Crate version is not emissions compliant (neither are most crate engines) so it's a non starter assuming it's just one of those plopped in. An important point oft overlooked when looking at crate engines.It's not looking like a special engine is it, Cosworth seem to have said they've not touched the internals, just exhaust and mapping to make the necessary power. I'm presuming it already based on the High compression Aluminator version of the Coyote, which comes as a 500hp engine out of the crate from Ford Racing.
The Aero? I would expect that across the models and not be limited to the LE.
3 way adjustable suspension perhaps? A couple of £k over normal maybe.
Fancy trim? Again no more in the real world than a few £k than you'd have to do to a basic car, TVRs have always had good interiors so I wouldn't expect them to step back from that as standard.
Any thoughts on the subject?
Or we can wait until the reveal, I'm looking forward to it.
However I do hope they give proper notice though, my work diary pretty much runs at 3 months ahead, I'd hate to miss it for want of poor planning.
The TVR motor has to be emissions compliant. So doing the maths, 400 bhp/ton, 1200kg, means it'll have at least 480 bhp to meet specs. Marketing forces I imagine have pushed that number to 500bhp.
So Cosworth have engineered a Coyote with a dry sump, bespoke headers, intake (probably), and ECU. It'll also be noise and emissions compliant, and have 480-500bhp.
Imo they need to stick to the old TVR traits, lightweight, sound amazing, individual interiors, stunning looks, very raw, no frills savagery!!
What my friends and I find frustrating about modern performance car's is the lack of sheer fun! You need to be ringing their necks to enjoy them.
For me just looking at any TVR gets me excited, sitting in it gets me excited, firing it up, just driving at low speeds, a quick blast in one on an early Sunday morning, just feeling how alive and communicative it is, it's hard to find in modern car's.
Most of us are now looking at buying older car's to try and capture this again.
The new TVR needs to be 'that' car. Not about top trumps and figures, but about how it makes you feel.
Otherwise, I believe it will seriously struggle to compete at the price tag currently being talked about.
I hope that they can pull it off!
What my friends and I find frustrating about modern performance car's is the lack of sheer fun! You need to be ringing their necks to enjoy them.
For me just looking at any TVR gets me excited, sitting in it gets me excited, firing it up, just driving at low speeds, a quick blast in one on an early Sunday morning, just feeling how alive and communicative it is, it's hard to find in modern car's.
Most of us are now looking at buying older car's to try and capture this again.
The new TVR needs to be 'that' car. Not about top trumps and figures, but about how it makes you feel.
Otherwise, I believe it will seriously struggle to compete at the price tag currently being talked about.
I hope that they can pull it off!
dvs_dave said:
HarryW said:
Be interesting to know what extras there are then, I pretty much took carbon as the only real extra.
It's not looking like a special engine is it, Cosworth seem to have said they've not touched the internals, just exhaust and mapping to make the necessary power. I'm presuming it already based on the High compression Aluminator version of the Coyote, which comes as a 500hp engine out of the crate from Ford Racing.
The Aero? I would expect that across the models and not be limited to the LE.
3 way adjustable suspension perhaps? A couple of £k over normal maybe.
Fancy trim? Again no more in the real world than a few £k than you'd have to do to a basic car, TVRs have always had good interiors so I wouldn't expect them to step back from that as standard.
Any thoughts on the subject?
Or we can wait until the reveal, I'm looking forward to it.
However I do hope they give proper notice though, my work diary pretty much runs at 3 months ahead, I'd hate to miss it for want of poor planning.
Aluminator Crate version is not emissions compliant (neither are most crate engines) so it's a non starter assuming it's just one of those plopped in. An important point oft overlooked when looking at crate engines.It's not looking like a special engine is it, Cosworth seem to have said they've not touched the internals, just exhaust and mapping to make the necessary power. I'm presuming it already based on the High compression Aluminator version of the Coyote, which comes as a 500hp engine out of the crate from Ford Racing.
The Aero? I would expect that across the models and not be limited to the LE.
3 way adjustable suspension perhaps? A couple of £k over normal maybe.
Fancy trim? Again no more in the real world than a few £k than you'd have to do to a basic car, TVRs have always had good interiors so I wouldn't expect them to step back from that as standard.
Any thoughts on the subject?
Or we can wait until the reveal, I'm looking forward to it.
However I do hope they give proper notice though, my work diary pretty much runs at 3 months ahead, I'd hate to miss it for want of poor planning.
The TVR motor has to be emissions compliant. So doing the maths, 400 bhp/ton, 1200kg, means it'll have at least 480 bhp to meet specs. Marketing forces I imagine have pushed that number to 500bhp.
So Cosworth have engineered a Coyote with a dry sump, bespoke headers, intake (probably), and ECU. It'll also be noise and emissions compliant, and have 480-500bhp.
Glad I've ruffled featheres and stoked the fire!
All I'm saying is the Speed Six for me is utter bliss and the 4.7 (with knock MBE) soon to land is reported to be over 410bhp per tonne. Oh and as for a proper off button for TCS the MBE variant will be off and you have an "on" switch lol
At 100k for a TVR that has a foreign soul to me loses part of its appeal. Like said above its all about the way you feel
All I'm saying is the Speed Six for me is utter bliss and the 4.7 (with knock MBE) soon to land is reported to be over 410bhp per tonne. Oh and as for a proper off button for TCS the MBE variant will be off and you have an "on" switch lol
At 100k for a TVR that has a foreign soul to me loses part of its appeal. Like said above its all about the way you feel
Incognegro said:
Glad I've ruffled featheres and stoked the fire!
All I'm saying is the Speed Six for me is utter bliss and the 4.7 (with knock MBE) soon to land is reported to be over 410bhp per tonne. Oh and as for a proper off button for TCS the MBE variant will be off and you have an "on" switch lol
At 100k for a TVR that has a foreign soul to me loses part of its appeal. Like said above its all about the way you feel
Foreign soul.. lolAll I'm saying is the Speed Six for me is utter bliss and the 4.7 (with knock MBE) soon to land is reported to be over 410bhp per tonne. Oh and as for a proper off button for TCS the MBE variant will be off and you have an "on" switch lol
At 100k for a TVR that has a foreign soul to me loses part of its appeal. Like said above its all about the way you feel
Just like the Griffith and Chimaera have foreign souls..
And even the original 60s Griffith have a foreign soul.. lol
I'm glad you enjoy your car. But are you bordering on deliberately winding people up.
BJWoods said:
Foreign soul.. lol
Just like the Griffith and Chimaera have foreign souls..
And even the original 60s Griffith have a foreign soul.. lol
I'm glad you enjoy your car. But are you bordering on deliberately winding people up.
Sorry Woods, I am being overly facetious Just like the Griffith and Chimaera have foreign souls..
And even the original 60s Griffith have a foreign soul.. lol
I'm glad you enjoy your car. But are you bordering on deliberately winding people up.
but the 60s was a great business model, use other engines until you have the funds & means to make your own? I must sleep now but great there is a buzz like this. Night all
HarryW said:
Out of interest do you know what aspect of emissions are not compliant? Is it it can't be made compliant or have Ford decided not to push it through for compliance for market reasons? You can play with the 3D mapping and VVT to make it do most things compliant and have Track map that may not be so? Is it The high compression and Pistons? The higher lift cams? Everything else is just strengthening billet crank, arp bolts, H beam rods etc. Not totally convinced myself.
It's the whole package that needs to meet emissions. From the fuel system, to the ECU calibration, crank case breathing system, exhaust after treatment system, the whole bang shoot that need to be in compliance. A crate engine is just the mechanical engine part. It needs all these other subsystems to work, and they all need to be tuned together as one holistic system to meet emissions standards, be it US EPA, Euro VI, or whatever.Starting with an engine and subsystems package that already meets emissions regs (as is the case with the Coyote) means you don't need to spend time and money getting to that bare minimum baseline before you can even think about tuning it for higher performance.
Producing an OEM driveline is many orders of magnitude more difficult and fraught with red tape than a DIYer would ever need to consider (basically no regs) which is the viewpoint many folks in the TVR world seem to have when it comes to stuff like this.
I periodically check the TVR website for updates , just in case ....recent post on the site :
"01.08.2016. New TVR vacancy – Production Director
Drive the installation and setup of TVR’s Ebbw Vale factory
This person will contribute to the design and fit-out of the plant and general facilities and will instil and maintain a total quality approach in production whilst driving the installation and setup of the factory and its operations. They will contribute to the recruitment of key manufacturing/indirect personnel and manage resources to meet vehicle quality, output and cost targets.
It is expected that they will have proven experience/involvement in the setup and running of a complex manufacturing establishment or section thereof and have previously built, managed and developed large teams. Applicants should also have a proven record in Automotive OEM/Tier 1 manufacturing.
If you are interested in applying for this position and would like to receive the full vacancy specification, please email jobs@tvr.co.uk, entering Production Director Enquiry in the subject field of your email."
I'm very much in the 'very excited, looking forward to the deposit holders preview ..and still left wondering if I can afford it ..." camp. However , if it's as good as I hope it will be, I'll find the money somewhere , somehow ...
have fun
Matt
"01.08.2016. New TVR vacancy – Production Director
Drive the installation and setup of TVR’s Ebbw Vale factory
This person will contribute to the design and fit-out of the plant and general facilities and will instil and maintain a total quality approach in production whilst driving the installation and setup of the factory and its operations. They will contribute to the recruitment of key manufacturing/indirect personnel and manage resources to meet vehicle quality, output and cost targets.
It is expected that they will have proven experience/involvement in the setup and running of a complex manufacturing establishment or section thereof and have previously built, managed and developed large teams. Applicants should also have a proven record in Automotive OEM/Tier 1 manufacturing.
If you are interested in applying for this position and would like to receive the full vacancy specification, please email jobs@tvr.co.uk, entering Production Director Enquiry in the subject field of your email."
I'm very much in the 'very excited, looking forward to the deposit holders preview ..and still left wondering if I can afford it ..." camp. However , if it's as good as I hope it will be, I'll find the money somewhere , somehow ...
have fun
Matt
mattus said:
I periodically check the TVR website for updates , just in case ....recent post on the site :
"01.08.2016. New TVR vacancy – Production Director
Drive the installation and setup of TVR’s Ebbw Vale factory
This person will contribute to the design and fit-out of the plant and general facilities and will instil and maintain a total quality approach in production whilst driving the installation and setup of the factory and its operations. They will contribute to the recruitment of key manufacturing/indirect personnel and manage resources to meet vehicle quality, output and cost targets.
It is expected that they will have proven experience/involvement in the setup and running of a complex manufacturing establishment or section thereof and have previously built, managed and developed large teams. Applicants should also have a proven record in Automotive OEM/Tier 1 manufacturing.
If you are interested in applying for this position and would like to receive the full vacancy specification, please email jobs@tvr.co.uk, entering Production Director Enquiry in the subject field of your email."
I'm very much in the 'very excited, looking forward to the deposit holders preview ..and still left wondering if I can afford it ..." camp. However , if it's as good as I hope it will be, I'll find the money somewhere , somehow ...
have fun
Matt
one of the TVR people I met at the motorshow, left a role in major corporation subsidary in Wales"01.08.2016. New TVR vacancy – Production Director
Drive the installation and setup of TVR’s Ebbw Vale factory
This person will contribute to the design and fit-out of the plant and general facilities and will instil and maintain a total quality approach in production whilst driving the installation and setup of the factory and its operations. They will contribute to the recruitment of key manufacturing/indirect personnel and manage resources to meet vehicle quality, output and cost targets.
It is expected that they will have proven experience/involvement in the setup and running of a complex manufacturing establishment or section thereof and have previously built, managed and developed large teams. Applicants should also have a proven record in Automotive OEM/Tier 1 manufacturing.
If you are interested in applying for this position and would like to receive the full vacancy specification, please email jobs@tvr.co.uk, entering Production Director Enquiry in the subject field of your email."
I'm very much in the 'very excited, looking forward to the deposit holders preview ..and still left wondering if I can afford it ..." camp. However , if it's as good as I hope it will be, I'll find the money somewhere , somehow ...
have fun
Matt
http://www.zoominfo.com/c/JTEKT-Corporation/950773...
https://www.jtekt.co.jp/e/company/global.html#targ...
(finance director) to join TVR..
Edited by BJWoods on Wednesday 10th August 12:31
dvs_dave said:
HarryW said:
Out of interest do you know what aspect of emissions are not compliant? Is it it can't be made compliant or have Ford decided not to push it through for compliance for market reasons? You can play with the 3D mapping and VVT to make it do most things compliant and have Track map that may not be so? Is it The high compression and Pistons? The higher lift cams? Everything else is just strengthening billet crank, arp bolts, H beam rods etc. Not totally convinced myself.
It's the whole package that needs to meet emissions. From the fuel system, to the ECU calibration, crank case breathing system, exhaust after treatment system, the whole bang shoot that need to be in compliance. A crate engine is just the mechanical engine part. It needs all these other subsystems to work, and they all need to be tuned together as one holistic system to meet emissions standards, be it US EPA, Euro VI, or whatever.Starting with an engine and subsystems package that already meets emissions regs (as is the case with the Coyote) means you don't need to spend time and money getting to that bare minimum baseline before you can even think about tuning it for higher performance.
Producing an OEM driveline is many orders of magnitude more difficult and fraught with red tape than a DIYer would ever need to consider (basically no regs) which is the viewpoint many folks in the TVR world seem to have when it comes to stuff like this.
HarryW said:
furry muff....
also (borrowed from a facebook discussion)"Imho Les wants to go to Le Mans. Its the only tome he ever really gets excited is when he's talking racing. That means he has to build 500 for homologation...to get into production class. For which you need a factory 5L engine...which is why he hasnt gone chevy....
It all makes sense.
Still. Means 500 road cars..."
- I had a v similar conversatino with Les Edgar, aswell at the 50th anniversary TVR club meet..
As this was before Gordon Murrays's involvement, the new Race car (and LE car) is going to be epic?!
Here is a clue to weight target, engine capacity, dimensions, etc... LOL..
http://www.fiawec.com/presentation/classes.html
Le Mans Grand Touring Endurance
The "Le Mans" Grand Touring Endurance car ("LM" GTE) is a car having an aptitude for sport with 2 doors, 2 or 2+2 seats, opened or closed, which can be used perfectly legally on the open road and available for sale thanks to the dealer network of a manufacturer recognised by the Endurance Committee.
This category includes two groups:
A group destined more especially to professional (LMGTE-PRO).
A group destined more specially to amateurs drivers (LMGTE-AM).
In this group only cars at least-one year old or fully in compliance wi
Engines
Normally aspirated engines: 5500 cc maximum
Turbocharged / Supercharged engines: 4000 cc maximum.
Driver categories
LMGTE-Pro: The composition of the crews is free.
LMGTE-Am: A crew of 2 or 3 drivers must include at least 1 Bronze plus 1 Bronze or Silver LMP1.
Dimensions
Maximum dimensions:
Overall length: 4800 mm
Front overhang: 1250 mm
Rear overhang: 1100 mm
Overall width: 2050 mm (excluding rear view mirrors)
LMGTE AmAm
Number panels
LMGTE-Pro: Pantone green 355, with white numbers.
LMGTE-Am: Pantone orange 021C, with white numbers.
Minimum weight
1245 kg (weight of the car without driver, fuel or fluids on board). The Endurance Committee reserves the right to adjust the minimum weight of any car in order to maintain the Balance of Performance between the cars.
Fuel Tank Capacity
90 litres (subject
http://www.fiawec.com/presentation/classes.html
Le Mans Grand Touring Endurance
The "Le Mans" Grand Touring Endurance car ("LM" GTE) is a car having an aptitude for sport with 2 doors, 2 or 2+2 seats, opened or closed, which can be used perfectly legally on the open road and available for sale thanks to the dealer network of a manufacturer recognised by the Endurance Committee.
This category includes two groups:
A group destined more especially to professional (LMGTE-PRO).
A group destined more specially to amateurs drivers (LMGTE-AM).
In this group only cars at least-one year old or fully in compliance wi
Engines
Normally aspirated engines: 5500 cc maximum
Turbocharged / Supercharged engines: 4000 cc maximum.
Driver categories
LMGTE-Pro: The composition of the crews is free.
LMGTE-Am: A crew of 2 or 3 drivers must include at least 1 Bronze plus 1 Bronze or Silver LMP1.
Dimensions
Maximum dimensions:
Overall length: 4800 mm
Front overhang: 1250 mm
Rear overhang: 1100 mm
Overall width: 2050 mm (excluding rear view mirrors)
LMGTE AmAm
Number panels
LMGTE-Pro: Pantone green 355, with white numbers.
LMGTE-Am: Pantone orange 021C, with white numbers.
Minimum weight
1245 kg (weight of the car without driver, fuel or fluids on board). The Endurance Committee reserves the right to adjust the minimum weight of any car in order to maintain the Balance of Performance between the cars.
Fuel Tank Capacity
90 litres (subject
Edited by BJWoods on Wednesday 10th August 13:13
dvs_dave said:
Engines: maximum 5.5L NA, or 4L FI.
Doesn't really seem fair. A 4L FI engine these days is way more powerful than an NA 5.5L ever could be. Are there other restrictions? As it stands it would be a non starter trying to be competitive with an NA engine given the allowed FI option.
yes, I'd thought that.. but I'm sure they are aware of it, so interesting to see what plans are? Doesn't really seem fair. A 4L FI engine these days is way more powerful than an NA 5.5L ever could be. Are there other restrictions? As it stands it would be a non starter trying to be competitive with an NA engine given the allowed FI option.
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