New TVR still under wraps!
Discussion
thecook101 said:
Deposit holders are not investors. Securing a build slot for a special edition for Ferrari, Porsche, Merc etc certainly doesn't make you an investor, why should it be thought of as any different when it comes to TVR? Let's face it, 500x5k is only 2.5mil which is a drop in the ocean when it comes to funding the rebirth of a sports car brand.
Huh. Your right. They're not investors. They're called customers. Unless you live in a parallel universe to the one where I live Some would argue they are even more important than investors, as if there is no customer there is no point investing. The difference between this escapade and the companies you mention, is that they manage expectation and have clear lines of communication with their deposit holders. They manage this expectation through clear timelines provided to said customers. None of this is rocket science but I would suggest it's indicative of a business running close to the wire.
On a side Note have any of the aforementioned companies ever taken a deposit on a totally unseen vehicle. Not sure they have.
m4tti said:
thecook101 said:
Deposit holders are not investors. Securing a build slot for a special edition for Ferrari, Porsche, Merc etc certainly doesn't make you an investor, why should it be thought of as any different when it comes to TVR? Let's face it, 500x5k is only 2.5mil which is a drop in the ocean when it comes to funding the rebirth of a sports car brand.
Huh. Your right. They're not investors. They're called customers. Unless you live in a parallel universe to the one where I live Some would argue they are even more important than investors, as if there is no customer there is no point investing. The difference between this escapade and the companies you mention, is that they manage expectation and have clear lines of communication with their deposit holders. They manage this expectation through clear timelines provided to said customers. None of this is rocket science but I would suggest it's indicative of a business running close to the wire.
On a side Note have any of the aforementioned companies ever taken a deposit on a totally unseen vehicle. Not sure they have.
m4tti said:
thecook101 said:
Ferrari, Porsche, Merc
The difference between this escapade and the companies you mention, is that they manage expectation and have clear lines of communication with their deposit holders. They manage this expectation through clear timelines provided to said customers. None of this is rocket science but I would suggest it's indicative of a business running close to the wire. 
Ok, this is starting to get irritating. Why on earth would a new company lay out its business plan to anyone outside their own doors (which includes 'investors', not clients/ customers)? A business plan, any plan, is confidential.
Anyone who seriously thinks any company at all gives out actual planning info to the public is falling for the biggest marketing lie of all, i.e. information supplied as advertising is true. Its a version of truth they want you to know. Its advertising, not a business plan.
TVR have given as much information as they feel comfortable providing. Things that are in flux would be silly to throw into arenas such as this for exactly this sort of 'debate'. As we all know, Pistonheads is free to join and not vetted in any way which leads to literally anyone getting on here and b
hing about things generally for the sake of bhing.
As a product developer myself, I find what Les is doing to be exemplary. It shows a clear and considered development path and for that we should all be grateful.
Anyone who seriously thinks any company at all gives out actual planning info to the public is falling for the biggest marketing lie of all, i.e. information supplied as advertising is true. Its a version of truth they want you to know. Its advertising, not a business plan.
TVR have given as much information as they feel comfortable providing. Things that are in flux would be silly to throw into arenas such as this for exactly this sort of 'debate'. As we all know, Pistonheads is free to join and not vetted in any way which leads to literally anyone getting on here and b
hing about things generally for the sake of bhing.As a product developer myself, I find what Les is doing to be exemplary. It shows a clear and considered development path and for that we should all be grateful.
fatbutt said:
Ok, this is starting to get irritating. Why on earth would a new company lay out its business plan to anyone outside their own doors (which includes 'investors', not clients/ customers)? A business plan, any plan, is confidential.
Anyone who seriously thinks any company at all gives out actual planning info to the public is falling for the biggest marketing lie of all, i.e. information supplied as advertising is true. Its a version of truth they want you to know. Its advertising, not a business plan.
TVR have given as much information as they feel comfortable providing. Things that are in flux would be silly to throw into arenas such as this for exactly this sort of 'debate'. As we all know, Pistonheads is free to join and not vetted in any way which leads to literally anyone getting on here and bhing about things generally for the sake of bhing.
As a product developer myself, I find what Les is doing to be exemplary. It shows a clear and considered development path and for that we should all be grateful.
I absolutely agree!Anyone who seriously thinks any company at all gives out actual planning info to the public is falling for the biggest marketing lie of all, i.e. information supplied as advertising is true. Its a version of truth they want you to know. Its advertising, not a business plan.
TVR have given as much information as they feel comfortable providing. Things that are in flux would be silly to throw into arenas such as this for exactly this sort of 'debate'. As we all know, Pistonheads is free to join and not vetted in any way which leads to literally anyone getting on here and b
hing about things generally for the sake of bhing.As a product developer myself, I find what Les is doing to be exemplary. It shows a clear and considered development path and for that we should all be grateful.
Snakes said:
fatbutt said:
Ok, this is starting to get irritating. Why on earth would a new company lay out its business plan to anyone outside their own doors (which includes 'investors', not clients/ customers)? A business plan, any plan, is confidential.
Anyone who seriously thinks any company at all gives out actual planning info to the public is falling for the biggest marketing lie of all, i.e. information supplied as advertising is true. Its a version of truth they want you to know. Its advertising, not a business plan.
TVR have given as much information as they feel comfortable providing. Things that are in flux would be silly to throw into arenas such as this for exactly this sort of 'debate'. As we all know, Pistonheads is free to join and not vetted in any way which leads to literally anyone getting on here and bhing about things generally for the sake of bhing.
As a product developer myself, I find what Les is doing to be exemplary. It shows a clear and considered development path and for that we should all be grateful.
I absolutely agree!Anyone who seriously thinks any company at all gives out actual planning info to the public is falling for the biggest marketing lie of all, i.e. information supplied as advertising is true. Its a version of truth they want you to know. Its advertising, not a business plan.
TVR have given as much information as they feel comfortable providing. Things that are in flux would be silly to throw into arenas such as this for exactly this sort of 'debate'. As we all know, Pistonheads is free to join and not vetted in any way which leads to literally anyone getting on here and b
hing about things generally for the sake of bhing.As a product developer myself, I find what Les is doing to be exemplary. It shows a clear and considered development path and for that we should all be grateful.
portzi said:
Snakes said:
fatbutt said:
Ok, this is starting to get irritating. Why on earth would a new company lay out its business plan to anyone outside their own doors (which includes 'investors', not clients/ customers)? A business plan, any plan, is confidential.
Anyone who seriously thinks any company at all gives out actual planning info to the public is falling for the biggest marketing lie of all, i.e. information supplied as advertising is true. Its a version of truth they want you to know. Its advertising, not a business plan.
TVR have given as much information as they feel comfortable providing. Things that are in flux would be silly to throw into arenas such as this for exactly this sort of 'debate'. As we all know, Pistonheads is free to join and not vetted in any way which leads to literally anyone getting on here and bhing about things generally for the sake of bhing.
As a product developer myself, I find what Les is doing to be exemplary. It shows a clear and considered development path and for that we should all be grateful.
I absolutely agree!Anyone who seriously thinks any company at all gives out actual planning info to the public is falling for the biggest marketing lie of all, i.e. information supplied as advertising is true. Its a version of truth they want you to know. Its advertising, not a business plan.
TVR have given as much information as they feel comfortable providing. Things that are in flux would be silly to throw into arenas such as this for exactly this sort of 'debate'. As we all know, Pistonheads is free to join and not vetted in any way which leads to literally anyone getting on here and b
hing about things generally for the sake of bhing.As a product developer myself, I find what Les is doing to be exemplary. It shows a clear and considered development path and for that we should all be grateful.
ClassiChimi said:
Snakes said:
Looks like they can save a few quid on painting the place as the colours look right!
Am I the first Tvr owner to visit the new factory,, it's a run down mess with broken glass and what looks like fire damage to the building, it's still under offer so nothing official by the looks of it. The pic above has been doctored!
Taking the piss!
Here it is in its full glory, looks like it's been abandoned for some years and will need a lot of work to come upto what you'd expect a high class car plant to look like.
I've been visiting family and realised I drive straight past this site so couldn't resist but to go and find it.
The heads of the Valleys road is going through some serious civil engineering and must be costing a small fortune so that's a very good sign, but that was euro money, when the Brit government takes over the poor place will be starved again,, just like up north!!!!!
I actually went to the factory to apply for a job
it'll be some time before this site can be up and running,, I sneaked a look inside the office buildings,, like a bomb went off and they left in a hurry, I'm not sure if this was vandalism but office equipment and all sorts have just been left there and it's a right old mess, wiring hanging out all over the place etc etc etc Nothing a good clean up won't sort but it looks far from being ready to build cars in, if this really is the new factory then I can't wait to see it happen.
If so I understand that while this IS a unit they looked at it they haven't signed any lease.
More leaks than a Greengrocers....
Edited by V8 GRF on Monday 19th September 12:47
fatbutt said:
Ok, this is starting to get irritating. Why on earth would a new company lay out its business plan to anyone outside their own doors (which includes 'investors', not clients/ customers)? A business plan, any plan, is confidential.
Anyone who seriously thinks any company at all gives out actual planning info to the public is falling for the biggest marketing lie of all, i.e. information supplied as advertising is true. Its a version of truth they want you to know. Its advertising, not a business plan.
TVR have given as much information as they feel comfortable providing. Things that are in flux would be silly to throw into arenas such as this for exactly this sort of 'debate'. As we all know, Pistonheads is free to join and not vetted in any way which leads to literally anyone getting on here and bhing about things generally for the sake of bhing.
As a product developer myself, I find what Les is doing to be exemplary. It shows a clear and considered development path and for that we should all be grateful.
Er, Top Secret Business plan info like "How much is the car going to cost" That sort of thing yeah? Anyone who seriously thinks any company at all gives out actual planning info to the public is falling for the biggest marketing lie of all, i.e. information supplied as advertising is true. Its a version of truth they want you to know. Its advertising, not a business plan.
TVR have given as much information as they feel comfortable providing. Things that are in flux would be silly to throw into arenas such as this for exactly this sort of 'debate'. As we all know, Pistonheads is free to join and not vetted in any way which leads to literally anyone getting on here and b
hing about things generally for the sake of bhing.As a product developer myself, I find what Les is doing to be exemplary. It shows a clear and considered development path and for that we should all be grateful.
There is a big difference between an "Investor" (someone who puts money up front, in order to get a return on their investment, but critically, is not guaranteed a return (ie the investment has RISK) and a "customer" as someone who spends their money on a product, in this case before it exists, but who expects that product to confirm to some basic standards and int he end, to receive a product that is comensurate with their expectations.
Bit difference IMO...........
essexstu said:
Back of a napkin calcs;It's a million quid a year for the lease on 180k SF, plus whatever capital improvements are needed to get it up to scratch. Hard to tell from the pics but it doesn't look in bad condition. The bones are good so really only in need of a light cosmetic refresh and some repairs.
£25 pSF including the office space buildout should be plenty for a total capital investment of £4.5m on the building, most of which will all be claimed back as a capital allowance, and the rest amortised over the life of the lease (probably 10yrs).
So £1.45m p.a. for the building. Not too bad.
The factory equipment will be several mil. on top (minimal automation so not hugely expensive), lets say another £8m.
That's a grand total of £22.5m over 10years, or £2.25m p.a for the whole factory.
Assume 100 staff with an average burden of £30k p.a, that's £3m p.a. staff costs.
So to keep the lights on and people in a job, it'll take £5.25m p.a.
Assuming per car costs of materials(£35k), design/dev(£15k), sales/marketing/distribution (£5k) for a factory gate cost of £55k. Average unit selling price (ex VAT) of £65k, so £10k pre expense profit per unit.
So conservatively assume 600 cars p.a that's £6m pre-expense profit p.a.
Or an overall annual profit after expenses but before taxes, interest and excluding any tax breaks, incentives etc. of £750k.
Seems like a sound at least break even business case for a startup, unless I've missed something?
Edited by dvs_dave on Monday 19th September 19:18
dvs_dave said:
Or 6000 cars over 10 years, yes that's conservative. How many cars did TVR make between 1995-2005? A fair bit more than 6000 units.
They're starting with a premium model though, not knocking out cars that are comparatively cheap to their rivals. I can't see them selling 600 a year for a long time, presuming they survive past the first modeldvs_dave said:
essexstu said:
Back of a napkin calcs;It's a million quid a year for the lease on 180k SF, plus whatever capital improvements are needed to get it up to scratch. Hard to tell from the pics but it doesn't look in bad condition. The bones are good so really only in need of a light cosmetic refresh and some repairs.
£25 pSF including the office space buildout should be plenty for a total capital investment of £4.5m on the building, most of which will all be claimed back as a capital allowance, and the rest amortised over the life of the lease (probably 10yrs).
So £1.45m p.a. for the building. Not too bad.
The factory equipment will be several mil. on top (minimal automation so not hugely expensive), lets say another £8m.
That's a grand total of £22.5m over 10years, or £2.25m p.a for the whole factory.
Assume 100 staff with an average burden of £30k p.a, that's £3m p.a. staff costs.
So to keep the lights on and people in a job, it'll take £5.25m p.a.
Assuming per car costs of materials(£35k), design/dev(£15k), sales/marketing/distribution (£5k) for a factory gate cost of £55k. Average unit selling price (ex VAT) of £65k, so £10k pre expense profit per unit.
So conservatively assume 600 cars p.a that's £6m pre-expense profit p.a.
Or an overall annual profit after expenses but before taxes, interest and excluding any tax breaks, incentives etc. of £750k.
Seems like a sound at least break even business case for a startup, unless I've missed something?
Edited by dvs_dave on Monday 19th September 19:18
BJG1 said:
They're starting with a premium model though, not knocking out cars that are comparatively cheap to their rivals. I can't see them selling 600 a year for a long time, presuming they survive past the first model
Agree, TVR is a damaged brand. It will need to prove itself to a much wider audience than us die hard fans to make 600 per year. Total run of Sags was only 200 because the market was to scared to touch it and Tuscans despite Moleskins working hard to up the quality. That image hasn't changed. Everyone wants one, but most to scared to touchBJG1 said:
They're starting with a premium model though, not knocking out cars that are comparatively cheap to their rivals. I can't see them selling 600 a year for a long time, presuming they survive past the first model
Agree with the 'premium model' statement. A blood and thunder 100k (70k is a fantasy) isn't great to start with either. Needs to come in cheap and chearful and start to build an upgrade pathWhat is the obsession with a flat floor and side exit exhaust? Its a road car
If you start cheap then you stay cheap and then you go bust. No point in discounting to get volume to people that you don't even want as customers. Much better to start premium and then offer a cheaper version which will be what most people buy.
Look at Tesla and Maclaren, they are now bringing out cheap models having secured the brand image of being expensive and for winners. TVR seems to be following what is the correct route.
This car won't be cheap. It was never going to be and those who claimed it was going to be were just dreaming. No one wants non premium or cheap products. People don't want Lotus badged cars. They want Astons and Porsches because that's what rich people, celebrities and winners drive.
This car is almost certainly going to be near or over £100k and it will definitely be being targeted at the people who want to throw £100k of debt at projecting the right image or extension of their personality or beliefs.
If they wanted to build cars for die hard motoring enthusiasts then they should just stick a Ginetta badge on them, build piles of rubbish and then go bust. But if they want to survive and prosper then they need to sell a premium product to the larger demographic.
The Gordon Murray association is good, as is Cosworth. And there is definitely strong interest among people who typically buy 911s or more expensive sports cars. I'm being asked more and more about the new TVR by people who love the idea. So if it looks good then I think they'll be able to make a go of it but I do suspect that their product will ultimately offend many people who consider themselves TVR fans, just like the new Astons did, the new Bentleys, new Rollers etc etc. The key is that they survive and they can't hope to do that by appeasing the old when they must be selling to the new.
Look at Tesla and Maclaren, they are now bringing out cheap models having secured the brand image of being expensive and for winners. TVR seems to be following what is the correct route.
This car won't be cheap. It was never going to be and those who claimed it was going to be were just dreaming. No one wants non premium or cheap products. People don't want Lotus badged cars. They want Astons and Porsches because that's what rich people, celebrities and winners drive.
This car is almost certainly going to be near or over £100k and it will definitely be being targeted at the people who want to throw £100k of debt at projecting the right image or extension of their personality or beliefs.
If they wanted to build cars for die hard motoring enthusiasts then they should just stick a Ginetta badge on them, build piles of rubbish and then go bust. But if they want to survive and prosper then they need to sell a premium product to the larger demographic.
The Gordon Murray association is good, as is Cosworth. And there is definitely strong interest among people who typically buy 911s or more expensive sports cars. I'm being asked more and more about the new TVR by people who love the idea. So if it looks good then I think they'll be able to make a go of it but I do suspect that their product will ultimately offend many people who consider themselves TVR fans, just like the new Astons did, the new Bentleys, new Rollers etc etc. The key is that they survive and they can't hope to do that by appeasing the old when they must be selling to the new.
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