New TVR still under wraps!
Discussion
Its the premium piece I am struggling to see how they will pull off. The engine and chassis may be the dogs bits and bobs but the premium market demands so much more. Its whats stopping Lotus at present. The Evora is a fabulous thing - in fact I have no idea why people are putting deposits and pinning their hopes on a non existent sports car like TVR when you can wander over to Norfolk and buy an Evora tomorrow. Problem is the Evora doesn't feel that premium - yes it has stuff like Sat Nav but it just looks so 'Halfords' - the investment need to make stuff like that look OEM is massive, but its key to making it feel premium.
Look at most modern instrument panels, its all LCD screens, touch panels, the investment is stuff like that is huge, but without it its not going to feel modern and premium. Not going to prize people out of the Audi style virtual cockpit of their DB11 to sit behind some plastic dials and and LCD from a 1970's Casio watch
Look at most modern instrument panels, its all LCD screens, touch panels, the investment is stuff like that is huge, but without it its not going to feel modern and premium. Not going to prize people out of the Audi style virtual cockpit of their DB11 to sit behind some plastic dials and and LCD from a 1970's Casio watch
The Evora is an amazing car. It's held back by both looking cheaper than its price tag and having a brand that is not synonymous with being a winner. It's a very harsh indictment but no one gets a windfall of cash and ever thinks that what they need on their driveway to project this new found success is a car with a Lotus badge. Lotus have just comprehensively failed to make their products desirable to 'spenders'. Instead they have chosen to bang on about being lightweight, cheap and able to go round corners. None of those things are of genuine interest to the wider sports car buying market.
The Evora could be the new Esprit if it didn't look so dumpy and plastic. It's worth every penny they charge for it but with a different brand image and an a better looking body they'd be able to sell many more and at a higher price.
The Evora could be the new Esprit if it didn't look so dumpy and plastic. It's worth every penny they charge for it but with a different brand image and an a better looking body they'd be able to sell many more and at a higher price.
Some very good points being made to this thread.
I suspect that as a lowly salaried Pleb my dream to own one of the first cars is fast disappearing along with the recent talk, but I'll keep the faith right up to the point it becomes unaffordable to me. I strongly suspect that I may not be alone in that, but only time will tell.
Out of interest DA, not sure if I've asked this before, do you have an interest in the new car.
I suspect that as a lowly salaried Pleb my dream to own one of the first cars is fast disappearing along with the recent talk, but I'll keep the faith right up to the point it becomes unaffordable to me. I strongly suspect that I may not be alone in that, but only time will tell.
Out of interest DA, not sure if I've asked this before, do you have an interest in the new car.
Edited by HarryW on Tuesday 20th September 17:06
Indeed, some good points being made, but without turning this into a Lotus thread I think that angle is worth exploring a little more.
When I bought my first Esprit way back in 1982, Lotus was indeed a prestige brand. That was built on Formula 1 success and the ultimate in marketing, by getting the Esprit included in several Bond films. Road testers thought the car was better than the equivalent 308/328 Ferrari at the time too. I bought one over a 308.
The years passed, I kept buying Esprits, but eventually Lotus decided to drop their flagship and concentrate on the Elise. That may have been good for the balance sheet and I’m not knocking the Elise at all, but concentrating solely on the lower end of the sports car market has obviously had an effect on their brand image.
So I think Les and the team have it right. Start with the premium model, get some LeMans or other global motor-sport successes, get the car into films and games (should be easy for Les), then produce a cheaper version.
And don’t knock the current TVR image too much. Yes I know it was damaged by engine issues, but my personal experience, outside of PH, is that the general public still hold the TVR marque in high regard for performance and styling. I've lost count of the number of 'prom' trips I've been asked to do, usually resulting in comments that the Sagaris was the coolest car there (much to the annoyance of a number of Aston and Jaguar owners
). I fully expect to see posters of the new car on many a boys bedroom wall too!
When I bought my first Esprit way back in 1982, Lotus was indeed a prestige brand. That was built on Formula 1 success and the ultimate in marketing, by getting the Esprit included in several Bond films. Road testers thought the car was better than the equivalent 308/328 Ferrari at the time too. I bought one over a 308.
The years passed, I kept buying Esprits, but eventually Lotus decided to drop their flagship and concentrate on the Elise. That may have been good for the balance sheet and I’m not knocking the Elise at all, but concentrating solely on the lower end of the sports car market has obviously had an effect on their brand image.
So I think Les and the team have it right. Start with the premium model, get some LeMans or other global motor-sport successes, get the car into films and games (should be easy for Les), then produce a cheaper version.
And don’t knock the current TVR image too much. Yes I know it was damaged by engine issues, but my personal experience, outside of PH, is that the general public still hold the TVR marque in high regard for performance and styling. I've lost count of the number of 'prom' trips I've been asked to do, usually resulting in comments that the Sagaris was the coolest car there (much to the annoyance of a number of Aston and Jaguar owners
). I fully expect to see posters of the new car on many a boys bedroom wall too!Some very valid points Gentlemen . While everyone was discussing the Trial and Tribulations of TVR past and present, what drops into my Inbox today? . Confirmation of my interest in going to the Reveal Event with a splash of Humour . No dates confirmed but Kudos to Les and his team to reply so promptly. 
ThePrisoner said:
Some very valid points Gentlemen . While everyone was discussing the Trial and Tribulations of TVR past and present, what drops into my Inbox today? . Confirmation of my interest in going to the Reveal Event with a splash of Humour . No dates confirmed but Kudos to Les and his team to reply so promptly.
Ditto
HarryW said:
ThePrisoner said:
Some very valid points Gentlemen . While everyone was discussing the Trial and Tribulations of TVR past and present, what drops into my Inbox today? . Confirmation of my interest in going to the Reveal Event with a splash of Humour . No dates confirmed but Kudos to Les and his team to reply so promptly.
Dittoas a point of interest, of those of us on here that have paid a deposit on the new car, how many of us already have a TVR (what model) and are we keeping what we have and adding the new car or is the current TVR being sold and replaced by the new one? Answers on a post card...or you could just reply below
I have a Tuscan and if I go for the new car it will be an addition as the Tuscan is for life.
I have a Tuscan and if I go for the new car it will be an addition as the Tuscan is for life.
Max_Torque said:
Englishman said:
get some LeMans or other global motor-sport successes
I assume you have an idea just how much it costs to win a global level motorsport event these days???It was an incredible achievement when the purple monsters managed it, let alone now.
There's a reason all the top GTE cars, results wise this season, are Ferrari or Ford and why the new 911 RSR is likely mid engined as will be the Corvette before long. That's before we talk about turbo charging.
There's a reason all the top GTE cars, results wise this season, are Ferrari or Ford and why the new 911 RSR is likely mid engined as will be the Corvette before long. That's before we talk about turbo charging.
Max_Torque said:
I assume you have an idea just how much it costs to win a global level motorsport event these days???
Indeed. But this has been one of the objectives of the new company from the start of this venture so I'm sure there are sufficient funds to make this happen, otherwise the investors wouldn't have come on-board in the first place.DonkeyApple said:
...
Sadly that means any new TVR will be expensive. It also means the business will need to target the much larger market that is people who haven't or don't own an old TVR. We just have to hope the product is sufficiently desirable to the wider market to achieve that. But I've seen plenty of interest from people who have traditionally bought Astons, 911s and Ferraris and what they are all talking about is the Cosworth engine and Murray. It shows to me that they add a lot of credibility and bragging points.
I agree, but it has to justify the expense. You only get one chance to make a first impression and the launch edition is going to have to be one special car, IMO. They already have the right ingredients with Murray, Cosworth etc but I do think they are going to need something seriously headline-grabbing. I'm sure it will look great, sound good, go well and be fun to drive, but so are a lot of other cars. The aero package and Le Mans potential is one thing, but the customers cars will have to be delivered before it can compete at Le Mans. Le Mans should only add to the hype that the first car (somehow) creates.Sadly that means any new TVR will be expensive. It also means the business will need to target the much larger market that is people who haven't or don't own an old TVR. We just have to hope the product is sufficiently desirable to the wider market to achieve that. But I've seen plenty of interest from people who have traditionally bought Astons, 911s and Ferraris and what they are all talking about is the Cosworth engine and Murray. It shows to me that they add a lot of credibility and bragging points.
They won't be able to deliver the best looking car on the planet, the most reliable, best interior, best sounding or the best put-together compared with its rivals at its price point. The only thing they can do, I think, is make it the most performant, which is obviously what TVR has always been about.
For this reason, I think 400bhp/tonne is too low. They should aim for (plucking figures out the air) a 550hp car @ 1100Kg so that they can claim some new "record". It almost doesn't matter what it is, but it has to be there to make people want to buy it, to identify it and to give it top trumps credibility
. Eg "the only car under £100K that can do 200mph", or "twice the power to weight of a X", or "the only car ever to do Y". You get my drift. Something for the front cover. An unforgettable statement. And when a TVR burbles past you in the street, or a TVR key fob is plonked on the bar, it should always trigger that "oh, that's one of those cars that can claim XXX" response. Of course it's only bragging rights, and it may not even need to be accurate (no way my cerbera would do 195 
), but it has to make a statement, because that is a prerequisite of any status symbol, and for the brand to launch at £100K and grow from there, it needs to become an instant one, IMO.Yes, the new TVR advertising will need a great strapline. Was I the only one that spotted the 200mph 'boast' in the latest info from Les 'The challenge is to make sure that heat can escape properly when you pull up at a péage on the way to Le Mans in 35deg sun having been doing 200mph with the cats at 900deg C....'?
Edited by Englishman on Tuesday 20th September 19:31
FarmyardPants said:
I agree, but it has to justify the expense. You only get one chance to make a first impression and the launch edition is going to have to be one special car, IMO. They already have the right ingredients with Murray, Cosworth etc but I do think they are going to need something seriously headline-grabbing. I'm sure it will look great, sound good, go well and be fun to drive, but so are a lot of other cars. The aero package and Le Mans potential is one thing, but the customers cars will have to be delivered before it can compete at Le Mans. Le Mans should only add to the hype that the first car (somehow) creates.
They won't be able to deliver the best looking car on the planet, the most reliable, best interior, best sounding or the best put-together compared with its rivals at its price point. The only thing they can do, I think, is make it the most performant, which is obviously what TVR has always been about.
For this reason, I think 400bhp/tonne is too low. They should aim for (plucking figures out the air) a 550hp car @ 1100Kg so that they can claim some new "record". It almost doesn't matter what it is, but it has to be there to make people want to buy it, to identify it and to give it top trumps credibility. Eg "the only car under £100K that can do 200mph", or "twice the power to weight of a X", or "the only car ever to do Y". You get my drift. Something for the front cover. An unforgettable statement. And when a TVR burbles past you in the street, or a TVR key fob is plonked on the bar, it should always trigger that "oh, that's one of those cars that can claim XXX" response. Of course it's only bragging rights, and it may not even need to be accurate (no way my cerbera would do 195 ), but it has to make a statement, because that is a prerequisite of any status symbol, and for the brand to launch at £100K and grow from there, it needs to become an instant one, IMO.
I tend to agree. The whole risk of this project is that if it doesn't 'wow' at the reveal then I doubt there is enough investment available to tough it out. They won't be able to deliver the best looking car on the planet, the most reliable, best interior, best sounding or the best put-together compared with its rivals at its price point. The only thing they can do, I think, is make it the most performant, which is obviously what TVR has always been about.
For this reason, I think 400bhp/tonne is too low. They should aim for (plucking figures out the air) a 550hp car @ 1100Kg so that they can claim some new "record". It almost doesn't matter what it is, but it has to be there to make people want to buy it, to identify it and to give it top trumps credibility
. Eg "the only car under £100K that can do 200mph", or "twice the power to weight of a X", or "the only car ever to do Y". You get my drift. Something for the front cover. An unforgettable statement. And when a TVR burbles past you in the street, or a TVR key fob is plonked on the bar, it should always trigger that "oh, that's one of those cars that can claim XXX" response. Of course it's only bragging rights, and it may not even need to be accurate (no way my cerbera would do 195 ), but it has to make a statement, because that is a prerequisite of any status symbol, and for the brand to launch at £100K and grow from there, it needs to become an instant one, IMO.I've just spent the weekend driving around Lux and Germany and there was only one car that locals were lookin at and coming up to talk about despite the more expensive but common exotica either side of it. People knew the brand, we're excited to see it and above all, quite a few were asking if the car was the new TVR. People have heard it's coming back and they seem genuinely keen. Many will mock the legacy of TVR as being flimsy kit cars, but that's generally the insecurity of Porsche owners. Most people want them to return and to be noisy and brutish.
But as you say, I think they've got one shot to get this right. I think it boils down to looks and I think it's a huge risk. All we can do is hope they get it right but the odds aren't in their favour. It'll be a massive triumph.
HarryW said:
Out of interest DA, not sure if I've asked this before, do you have an interest in the new car.
Hi Harry, not at all. I just want them to succeed so there will be a 2+2 down the line. All modern cars are leaving me utterly cold at present and having just wanged around Europe for the last few days and around the UK for a year or two it's actually quite apparent that all these modern cars are leaving most people who aren't 7 year old boys pretty unenamoured. Edited by HarryW on Tuesday 20th September 17:06
FarmyardPants said:
The only thing they can do, I think, is make it the most performant, which is obviously what TVR has always been about.
I'm inclined to agree with you on this point, but again, the goalposts are a LOT narrower now than back in the early naughties. Without a DSG box, turbo engine and trick electronic diff, the new TVR is going to be lagging, no matter what bhp/tonne they manage to bolt into it.Initially, any racing budget is going to come directly off the development budget, and racing, imo, is not normally a good return on investment, compared to say spending the money on a better HVAC system, or more time on the styling buck/CAD.......
DonkeyApple said:
HarryW said:
Out of interest DA, not sure if I've asked this before, do you have an interest in the new car.
Hi Harry, not at all. I just want them to succeed so there will be a 2+2 down the line. All modern cars are leaving me utterly cold at present and having just wanged around Europe for the last few days and around the UK for a year or two it's actually quite apparent that all these modern cars are leaving most people who aren't 7 year old boys pretty unenamoured. Edited by HarryW on Tuesday 20th September 17:06
unrepentant said:
I can't agree DA. Have you drive an AMG GT-S? Maybe I'm getting old but I drove my F-Type R down to Tennessee in the spring, 1200 miles of fun and I can't remember enjoying a trip in any of my TVR's more. The car is fast, noisy, engaging, gorgeous, reliable and safe. For me that's the recipe.
Yup. You are right. There's no denying how good the mainstream cars are. I've driven the F Type R and been driven in the AMG. There will come a time when they appeal to me but I live in central London and I do crave something different. I take pleasure from that. Where I live these are just cars that non car lovers buy because they've reached an age and career level that obliges them to buy such a car. It's a warped environment where my car reminds me I've chosen not to play that game. If I had to drive for a living or could only have one car then it wouldn't be a TVR but I cancelled my MP12 order when I managed to get hold of the current TVR. It's the type of car I want. I can't see myself trading it for anything but a newer version for some years to come. I just hope LE and GMD deliver something I'd be happy to upgrade to and that a few hundred others, each year, want also to buy something that is exciting and not mainstream.
Max_Torque said:
FarmyardPants said:
The only thing they can do, I think, is make it the most performant, which is obviously what TVR has always been about.
I'm inclined to agree with you on this point, but again, the goalposts are a LOT narrower now than back in the early naughties. Without a DSG box, turbo engine and trick electronic diff, the new TVR is going to be lagging, no matter what bhp/tonne they manage to bolt into it.. Besides, the GT-R already has that market sewn up.Max_Torque said:
Initially, any racing budget is going to come directly off the development budget, and racing, imo, is not normally a good return on investment, compared to say spending the money on a better HVAC system, or more time on the styling buck/CAD.......
I agree but all work and no play makes Les a dull boy.Gassing Station | General TVR Stuff & Gossip | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff