Surrey Roof improvements - Part II

[Bassfiendnoideawhathp]

bobfather said:

Is she trying to work out where an unusual noise in the rear is coming from?

Lovely animal - can't bring myself to call them dogs as (in my experience) they're not. An old friend used to have a pack that she used to use as running partners in various combinations and they always struck me as (when not 'working') having more of a 'cats attitude in a dogs body'.

Phil

[Matthew Poxon]

bobfather said:

Here she is from an earlier trip

Awesome cheers.

[ray von]

After seeing first hand the surrey top and reading some of the fettling on here. I'm wondering whether the answer would be to get an untrimmed top from the supplier and get it to fit first?
I'm thinking more Dave's sugru fix rather than the curtain wire obviously.

[bobfather]

ray von said:

After seeing first hand the surrey top and reading some of the fettling on here. I'm wondering whether the answer would be to get an untrimmed top from the supplier and get it to fit first?
I'm thinking more Dave's sugru fix rather than the curtain wire obviously.

Yes that would work better.

Roger sends the hard pieces out to be trimmed by a third party. Looking at mine I see that the mohair has been glued onto the rear section at an inappropriate angle. Dave's sugru fix may be due to his front section being affixed to the mohair wrongly. I was thinking he needs to have a jig of some sort to hold the front and rear in the right orientation while the mohair is laid on.

There is a lot of talk about there being differences between cars due to them being hand built and Roger used that excuse when I asked for help. I believe there may be small variations but the individual parts were produced from moulds so I doubt that could account for the variable fitment issues people are having with the Surrey unit. They are replacing a mould produced solid section that fitted properly

[ChimpOnGas]

Jut to be 100% clear... I absolutely love my folding Surrey top!

It improves my Chimaera pleasure massively, and I've never felt the need to use the hard panel once since buying it which hopefully tells you everything.

When reviewing my options for a more practical roof system I spoke with Surface & Design, they weren't quite ready with their split roof at the time and said when they were they would need the car as every Chimaera is slightly different. They told me there were three roof panel moulds used by TVR, the guys on the line would have a selection of pre-finished panels to pick from then choose the best fit, from there the closest fitting panel was hand finished to the car.

Because of this Surface & Design simply refuse to offer the "one size fits all" setup Roger offers with the Surrey top, so from what I've seen the Surrey top fit can range from really quite good to downright bad. Having a skilled body guy experienced in GRP shape the two Surrey top header rail profiles to each car before the Mohair is glued and stretched between them is the answer but this would certainly add a lot of cost.

My Surrey top fitted nicely from word go so I guess I got lucky, but a little work shaping the profile of my front header rail with Sugru improved things still further, to be honest the roof system is so practical and useful I really didn't mind making these little enhancements.





Would I buy another Surrey top now Surface & Design offer their split roof?

Well, you know what I think I would

But I would still like to see the new S&D split roof in the flesh as it looks excellent in the photos I've seen of it, I'd also like to see if the two panels would fit under the boot lid so when you open the boot they can be easily slipped out of a pocket, this way everything in a full boot can stay put.

If I'm honest with myself the only real problem I have with the split roof is I'd be spending a big chunk of money on it to resolve a problem I've already completely solved with the excellent Surrey top, so I guess that means I'll stick with what I have and spend my TVR money on some new uprated Bilstein suspension from Ben Lang

[ray von]

Dave/ Bob all good stuff again.
In a hypothetical world where the difference in price between a Surrey and a split is £600.
If you bought an untrimmed Surrey to sort the fit.
Would
A) it cost £600 to sort
B) which one would you choose, perfect fit Surrey or perfect fit split

[bobfather]

I would have to say a Surrey Roof whether it be a good or bad fit. The issue for me is to do with enabling me to use the car as a tourer. I have a later Chimaera with the vertically opening boot lid, it has never been an issue for me to get the hard top in the boot. I just need to minimise the stowage space that the lid consumes, the Surrey wins hands down.

I'm doing further fettling right now trying to encourage an ever better rear section fit. If I had the courage for the task I'd peel the rear mohair corners and reattach so that the fit could be perfect, I'm worried that the mohair surface would suffer

[ChimpOnGas]

ray von said:

Dave/ Bob all good stuff again.
In a hypothetical world where the difference in price between a Surrey and a split is £600.
If you bought an untrimmed Surrey to sort the fit.
Would
A) it cost £600 to sort
B) which one would you choose, perfect fit Surrey or perfect fit split

The thing is I haven't lived with a split roof so it's hard to answer that question.

What I have lived with is the original hard panel for five years and then the folding Surrey top for over two years, as I've said many times since buying the Surrey top I've used nothing else. I'd honestly expected the Surrey top to be my temporary summer/touring roof, I even bought enough German Sonnenland mohair so the hard panel could re-trimmed from the same bolt of fabric. The thing is this was over two years ago and in all that time I haven't even bothered to get the hard panel out of my lockup let alone have it re-trimmed.

The split roof is a thing of beauty but don't lose sight of the fact it's still two hard panels you've got to stow, the Surrey top concertinas up into something long and thin which in my opinion offers a bit more convenience and stowing flexibility. Saying that if you had a trimmer make a pocket for the split roof panels that went under the boot lid, they would always be super easy to get to. The under boot lid pocket idea is definitely how I would look to stow the two panels.

The Surrey top is very light weight, quick to remove and equally quick to fold, this all makes it super easy to live with. Unlike the original hard panel you can remove and throw it in the boot s seconds, more importantly if you need to reinstate the roof in a rush it's a massively faster process especially if the boot is full because the Surrey top is just sat there on top of your luggage.

When I spoke to Roger about how his Surrey top is made he explained the key was the stretching frame he'd put a lot of time into getting right, apparently the top can't be properly recovered without this stretching frame. I say all this because you'd need Roger to support your idea of doing some on car finishing work of the header rails before you returned them for the trimming work to be completed on his special stretching frame.

Your other option would be to take a mould from your original hard top or even sacrifice it for your two Surrey top header rails, although that might be a bit drastic for some. Building a Surrey top to your car would indeed be the ultimate solution but you need to put the minor fitting issues we're discussing here into perspective.

My Surrey top was a very good fit from day one and it only really needed some very minor adjustment to make it even more snug because I'm super fussy. It's a good product "as is" so don't feel you absolutely have to go to extra expense of having it custom fitted to your Chimaera, but I have to admit this is the only way to achieve a perfect fit on a vehicle that's essentially handmade so the screen surrounds will invariably be slightly different from car to car.

On the subject of header rails, if you do have one custom finished to your car you may want to strengthen it at the strut mounting points, mine looks like it may have cracked here. You don't really notice it as it's covered in mohair but it clearly could do with some strengthening at these points. I guess in Roger's bid to keep the weight down he decided against glassing in a metal bar which would definitely be a good idea for his future Surrey tops in my opinion.

Edited by ChimpOnGas on Tuesday 20th September 14:01

[ray von]

Lads, all good stuff again however

ChimpOnGas said:

On the subject of header rails, if you do have one custom finished to your car you may want to strengthen it at the strut mounting points, mine looks like it may have cracked here. You don't really notice it as it's covered in mohair but it clearly could do with some strengthening at these points. I guess in Roger's bid to keep the weight down he decided against glassing in a metal bar which would definitely be a good idea for his future Surrey tops in my opinion.

So that could be something else to have to sort??

I'm really struggling with this.Where do you draw the line with the quality you are getting for £500 (nearly £600 after you get the bag and p&p) I sent mine back due to poor trimming but all these other problems that seem to arise put me right off trying again.
I can see the advantages of the roof it did appear easy to get on and off, and point taken about the S&D still being essentially a targa panel to lift on and off but £500+ for something that may or may not fit and then develop other problems?

[bobfather]

The answer is to return the item and make Roger feel the pain. My problem was that Roger did not accept that he is running a business so hid behind 'private seller' rights, buyer beware. I suspect this was a lot to do with mine being a green one and therefore a one off that he would struggle to resell

[chris watton]

I was thinking about getting one of these for my Tam, but after reading some of the feedback on here, I don't think I'll bother. It's not like we have the chance to have the roof off anyway, we must have had 8-9 days during this year when it hasn't rained! Plus, the standard targa roof only weighs around 8kg anyway, which is nothing - although I can see the benefits of freeing up the boot space. But the cost is quite high and from what I have red, the quality does not justify the cost. IMPHO.

[ChimpOnGas]

ray von said:

So that could be something else to have to sort??

I'm really struggling with this.Where do you draw the line with the quality you are getting for £500 (nearly £600 after you get the bag and p&p) I sent mine back due to poor trimming but all these other problems that seem to arise put me right off trying again.
I can see the advantages of the roof it did appear easy to get on and off, and point taken about the S&D still being essentially a targa panel to lift on and off but £500+ for something that may or may not fit and then develop other problems?

Honestly mate stop tormenting yourself!

Choosing the Surrey top will boil down what you personally feel is an acceptable fit and finish, everyone's expectations will be different, that's just human nature. The Surrey top is not a Porsche OEM quality product so if that's your benchmark forget it, but it's not poorly made either. I would class Roger's Surrey top is a cottage industry type product, it needs to be made for a price that will sell and still leave him some profit and I think he's managed to strike a good all round balance to keep everyone happy.

The challenge Roger has given himself by offering something like this is the screen profiles on a handmade TVR can and do vary quite a bit, this is why Surface & Design point blank refuse to offer a one size fits all split roof. Surface & Design live by the quality of their body work so have clearly chosen to completely control the quality of everything the put their name to, this is a commendable policy but it does significantly add to the cost and means what is already a very niche market product becomes something that is even less likely to sell in meaningful numbers.

It's a clearly something Surface & Design have thought about and I salute them for not being tempted by the allure of higher volume sales, but I can totally see why they've taken the approach they have. Roger's attempt to offer his excellent solution to a broader market has it's place too, yes doing things his way will invariably mean there are going to be areas of fit that could be better but only because of the handmade nature of a TVR, personally I think Roger has walked the challenging "price vs universal fit" tightrope extremely well and for me the advantages of the Surrey top so far outweigh any minor fit and finish gripes they completely pale into insignificance.

But that's just my opinion, clearly you must make your own mind up on all this!

Your decision needs to be a real word one, the forum is a very one dimensional tool to evaluate and choose a product for yourself because the opinions and expectations of others may not be in line with your own. If I were you I'd take a look at a few Surrey tops in the flesh, review their fit and the overall finish of the product to see if it meets or falls short your personal expatiations.

Personally I think it's a brilliant bit of kit, not because I bought one as so feel obliged to justify the purchase to myself, but because I've used nothing else since I bought it which is really the best endorsement of the product anyone could give. The way I see it a few tweaks and enhancements here and there is something deeply routed in the whole TVR ownership experience, if making my electric windows move a bit faster or tweaking my boot lid fit troubled me then I'd also have to accept I shouldn't have bought a TVR, the Surrey top is no different.

Of course these things don't trouble me one bit, I knew what I was buying when I bought a TVR and I knew I wasn't getting Porsche fit and finish, I also knew what I was buying when I bought my Surrey top so for me the decision making process felt much the same. This is a car you need to fettle and that's all part of the pleasure I get from owning it, like I say the Surrey top is really no different.

None of the above means a TVR is rubbish any more than the fact I've chosen to make some refinements to my Surrey top makes that rubbish either. It is what it is and only you can decide if its for you or not, so to give yourself a better chance of making that decision you really owe it to yourself to move away from the forum and start looking at some Surrey tops in the real world.

I think I've said enough on the subject now but as a final gesture of support you are most welcome to come to Hertfordshire to look at my Surrey top if that helps?

Dave.

[ray von]

ChimpOnGas said:

Honestly mate stop tormenting yourself!

Dave.

I didn't think I was to be honest I was just trying to get some honest opinion on the issues with these.

Thanks for the offer but Durham to yours is a long trip.

[ray von]

bobfather said:

The answer is to return the item and make Roger feel the pain. My problem was that Roger did not accept that he is running a business so hid behind 'private seller' rights, buyer beware.

Certainly seemed that way though to be fair he did eventually refund all my money after I twisted

[ChimpOnGas]

ray von said:

ChimpOnGas said:

Honestly mate stop tormenting yourself!

Dave.

I didn't think I was to be honest I was just trying to get some honest opinion on the issues with these.

Thanks for the offer but Durham to yours is a long trip.

I was just responding to your following statement...

ray von said:

I'm really struggling with this

My advice is well intentioned as is my offer to look at my Surrey top for yourself, if that's not convenient for you I believe Roger tours the TVR shows with physical examples of his product, you'll get to meet the guy and quiz him on your concerns in person.

I stand by my point you really won't find your answer on the forum, you've got to see a few these Surrey tops in the real world before deciding if its for you.

Re-read my last post, it's says everything you need to know before embarking on your real word assessment of what I've found to be a fantastic addition to my Chimaera. When mine gets totally worn out or if it ever became damaged, I'd order another one in a shot.

TBH that's about exhausted everything I can say on the subject.

[ChimpOnGas]

ray von said:

bobfather said:

The answer is to return the item and make Roger feel the pain. My problem was that Roger did not accept that he is running a business so hid behind 'private seller' rights, buyer beware.

Certainly seemed that way though to be fair he did eventually refund all my money after I twisted

Ok missed that point.

So you had a Surrey top, didn't like it, and eventually got a full refund after feeling you needed to push Roger for it.

Surely that's the end of it right there then?

Just move on and get yourself an S&D split roof, it sounds like it'll suit you better?

We do seem to have a couple of vocal disappointed customers here but does anyone know how many of these tops Roger has sold in total, my guess is quite a few.

Just trying to put the grumbles into some sort of perspective, perhaps I just got lucky with mine?

Edited by ChimpOnGas on Wednesday 21st September 11:37

[bobfather]

Dave, I'm not grumbling about this, as per the title, I'm sharing my solutions. I admit however that the tone of my words is sometimes coloured by my feelings regarding Roger's unwillingness to accept any accountability. He provided me with a product that had an obvious and problematic manufacturing error and apparently that was my fault. I eventually decided to accept the 'cottage industry' nature of the product as you say, but I think it is fair to voice this so that potential future buyers become informed. I certainly thought I was buying from a business and may have approached the purchase differently had I had foresight

[ray von]

Dave, Last one on this. I ordered a surrey top and when it arrived the trimming on it was sub standard so I never used it and returned it. The supplier was going to send another one but I asked him for photographs of the new one before it was posted and the trimming looked just as poor so I asked for a refund.

[bobfather]

bobfather said:

ChimpOnGas said:

My solution to the bowing inner flap takes a different approach to yours, I will shortly have Dave The Trimmer stitch a small pochet to each end of the flap to which will be inserted a flexible steel rule, by a happy coincidence I found just the right size for the job and with careful spacing of the little stitched pockets at each end I will be able to spring the flexible steel rule in place when fitting the Surrey top.

I'd be very interested to see that, it sounds like a much better solution than my tie-wrap

Back on topic...

I've been playing with this stainless steel rule idea. I have one rule long enough and narrow enough to achieve it. I split the stitched seam at the rear of the existing flaps. The mohair is doubled over and partially glued but with a little manipulation I was able to ease the glue apart and insert the rule.

I have now ordered two stainless rules and intend to add a 'stop' to the end of each to ensure they don't go too far in. I need to leave the far front of the flaps flexible because the flaps needs to bend around the aluminium window frames

Edited by bobfather on Wednesday 21st September 15:37

[FlipFlopGriff]

ChimpOnGas said:

Ok missed that point.

We do seem to have a couple of vocal disappointed customers here but does anyone know how many of these tops Roger has sold in total, my guess is quite a few.

Sure he said over 400 last time I saw him
FFG