Quick question related to NIP for speeding

[TeaNoSugar]

Before I put the details of this query; i have used the search facility but the threads are inconclusive and most are quite old and I wanted to try and find up to date information.

Anyway, it (should be) quite simple I think:

1. I was photographed by a mobile camera at 36mph in a 30 zone, on 4th October.
2. I am the registered owner of the car, have been since 26th May this year, and I haven't moved house or changed any details with the DVLA since 2010, so one would think there should be no issue with the police sending the notice out on time??
3. I received an NIP, dated 21st October (and I received it 22nd October) - 17 days after the date of the offence.

Having read the FAQ's, there's one that says something like "I've received this NIP more than 14 days after the date of the offence. What should I do?". The answer they give is to state that the law requires them to issue a notice within 14 days, but says I should still fill in the form and return. That's fair enough, I've no desire to commit an offence by not replying and confirming my details etc.

So, assuming I play by the rules, fill in the form, confirm it was me driving, I'm the registered keeper etc., and then what?

Given that their NIP wasn't even produced until after the 14 day limit? Do I politely point this out with the returned completed form, and request a response, or use one of those generic template letters which waffles on for about 3 pages, or do I just suck it up, pay the fine and do the Speed Awareness course (I haven't done one in the last 3 years and they do state that they offer the courses at their discretion).

If it makes any difference, I think I have a clean license at the moment (or if not, there are 3 points just about to expire).

Not sure what the best course of action is. I know rules are rules, but without trying to dress it up, I'll be honest and if there's an easy way out to avoid the fine/points/SAC, I'll happily have a go, as long as I'm opening myself up to anything more serious.

Like I said, there are 3 or 4 relevant posts using the search facility but some are years old and they don't really say anything conclusive.

Any ideas?

[BlackPorker]

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?autocom=ibwiki...

[TeaNoSugar]

Thanks for the link, I'd never heard of Peppipoo, it looks like quite a useful service. Unfortunately the "NIP Wizard" wouldn't work as their system wouldn't send me a validation email. Regardless of that, by reading around on the forum, I think I have found the information I was after.

Doesn't seem like the "expiry date" defence would work in this case. Oh well, 3 points or the SAC it is then!

Much appreciated.

[SS2.]

TeaNoSugar said:

Doesn't seem like the "expiry date" defence would work in this case.

Why not ?

[JayBM]

TeaNoSugar said:

Thanks for the link, I'd never heard of Peppipoo, it looks like quite a useful service. Unfortunately the "NIP Wizard" wouldn't work as their system wouldn't send me a validation email. Regardless of that, by reading around on the forum, I think I have found the information I was after.

Doesn't seem like the "expiry date" defence would work in this case. Oh well, 3 points or the SAC it is then!

Much appreciated.

Pepipoo is usually very good so wouldn't want to contradict any advice you've been given there, but from reading the OP there didn't seem to be any information that would, on face value,scupper a late service defence? Obviously the devil is in the detail i.e. is the car in question leased or a works vehicle? What is the DocRef date on your V5?

As you say that doesn't remove the need to reply to the name the driver request.

Edited by JayBM on Monday 24th October 14:11

[Red Devil]

TeaNoSugar said:

Thanks for the link, I'd never heard of Peppipoo, it looks like quite a useful service. Unfortunately the "NIP Wizard" wouldn't work as their system wouldn't send me a validation email. Regardless of that, by reading around on the forum, I think I have found the information I was after.

Doesn't seem like the "expiry date" defence would work in this case. Oh well, 3 points or the SAC it is then!

Really? Are you sure? See below.

TeaNoSugar said:

1. I was photographed by a mobile camera at 36mph in a 30 zone, on 4th October.
2. I am the registered owner of the car, have been since 26th May this year, and I haven't moved house or changed any details with the DVLA since 2010, so one would think there should be no issue with the police sending the notice out on time??
3. I received an NIP, dated 21st October (and I received it 22nd October) - 17 days after the date of the offence.

IF both of those dates are correct then any speeding prosecution is bound to fail because the later one makes it impossible to have complied with the relevant 14 day time limit for service*.
See RTOA 1988 Section 1(c) - http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/53/sectio...

 * In other words it must reach you within that time frame. That point was conclusively decided in Gidden v Chief Constable of Humberside - http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2009/292...

The date of 21st October is sufficient to rebut the deeming provision of RTOA 1988 Section 1(3). It is out of time. Period.

TeaNoSugar said:

Having read the FAQ's, there's one that says something like "I've received this NIP more than 14 days after the date of the offence. What should I do?". The answer they give is to state that the law requires them to issue a notice within 14 days, but says I should still fill in the form and return. That's fair enough, I've no desire to commit an offence by not replying and confirming my details etc.

As Frankie Howerd often said "Nay, nay, and thrice nay". The law requires them to effect service within 14 days and, yes, you must provide the driver's details per RTA 1988 Section 172(2)(a)
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/sectio... - the RK can't be prosecuted for speeding, only the driver can. Hence the S.172 demand. Failure to comply has a greater sanction: 6 points.

TeaNoSugar said:

Given that their NIP wasn't even produced until after the 14 day limit? Do I politely point this out with the returned completed form, and request a response, or use one of those generic template letters which waffles on for about 3 pages, or do I just suck it up, pay the fine and do the Speed Awareness course (I haven't done one in the last 3 years and they do state that they offer the courses at their discretion).

You don't need 3 pages of waffle nor should you cave. Somebody in the processing unit has dropped the ball. Read this thread (n.b. it should be DVLA not DVLC).
If that response doesn't stop them in their tracks then it will be interesting to see what reason they dream up for still pursuing the matter.

[tapereel]

Unless something in section 2 of the road traffic act applied, http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/53/sectio...

Then the NIP is too late.

[TeaNoSugar]

Sorry I haven't replied to these further points. To clarify, I was being slightly dense I think. The car is leased from VWFS however when i asked the lady I dealt with at the VW dealership I got the car from, she said I should tell the insurers that I'm the registered keeper. I therefore assumed that the DVLA would also have the same details but I think they may have listed VW as the owner so the police probably had to get my details from VW, hence the late NIP.

Thanks for the helps though, it is appreciated

[Red Devil]

TeaNoSugar said:

Sorry I haven't replied to these further points. To clarify, I was being slightly dense I think. The car is leased from VWFS however when i asked the lady I dealt with at the VW dealership I got the car from, she said I should tell the insurers that I'm the registered keeper. I therefore assumed that the DVLA would also have the same details but I think they may have listed VW as the owner so the police probably had to get my details from VW, hence the late NIP.

This is a very strong indicator that you aren't so named on the V5C and your assumption has been misplaced. If you don't have that document in your possession that's another big clue. Therefore the advice you were given by the lady at the dealership was incorrect. It should have been to tell the insurer that you are the keeper, not the registered keeper. The two are not synonymous. Such niceties matter.

If the leasing company is the RK then unfortunately Gidden doesn't help you. The frustration caveat mentioned by tapereel is the processing unit's get-out-of-jail-free card. Given how few days out of time the NIP is, it looks like all the other parties involved have moved at warp speed.

[mmm-five]

Would there be any further issue with the insurer and DVLA having different 'registered keepers'?

[TooMany2cvs]

TeaNoSugar said:

The car is leased from VWFS however when i asked the lady I dealt with at the VW dealership I got the car from, she said I should tell the insurers that I'm the registered keeper.

Do you have a V5C with your name and address on it?
Do you get the tax reminders sent to your home address directly from DVLA?

If not, then you aren't the registered keeper.

Not only are you fibbing to your insurer, but that shoots a hole straight through the "out of time" NIP, because it's not only got to the RK - VWFS - in the original time, but almost been replied to by them, back to the issuer, and back out to you...

[TeaNoSugar]

The insurance issue had occurred to me. I will check the policy wording. It's with Direct Line, and from memory I think there was a specific option on the questionnaire for personal lease cars, although I definitely want to be sure of that.

As someone pointed out, I don't hold the V5C so I'm not the registered keeper. I can't believe that never really occurred to me. The woman I dealt with at VW sounded very sure of that, but then again I wouldn't have picked up on the difference between "keeper" and "registered keeper".

Every day's a school day.

Many thanks to the people who've replied.

[Red Devil]

TeaNoSugar said:

The insurance issue had occurred to me. I will check the policy wording. It's with Direct Line, and from memory I think there was a specific option on the questionnaire for personal lease cars, although I definitely want to be sure of that.

This is not going to be news to any insurer. There are thousands of leased cars legally on the road every day.

Have a look at the definition of Your car here - https://www.directline.com/content/dam/dlg/Direct-... - it says nothing about who the RK is.

However the default assumption by Direct Line is that the RK and the policy holder are the same - http://www.intelligentcarleasing.com/car-leasing-i... (page 11).
That said, provided they are aware at inception that the car is on a personal lease you should have no problem. See - http://www.intelligentcarleasing.com/car-leasing-i...
I somehow doubt they would voluntarily exclude themselves completely from that market segment.

[tapereel]

TeaNoSugar said:

Sorry I haven't replied to these further points. To clarify, I was being slightly dense I think. The car is leased from VWFS however when i asked the lady I dealt with at the VW dealership I got the car from, she said I should tell the insurers that I'm the registered keeper. I therefore assumed that the DVLA would also have the same details but I think they may have listed VW as the owner so the police probably had to get my details from VW, hence the late NIP.

Thanks for the helps though, it is appreciated

If VWFS are listed as the registered keeper at DVLA and on PNC then you will not need to be served an NIP. There would therefore be no late NIP if the registered keeper was served inside 14 days.

[Red Devil]

tapereel said:

If VWFS are listed as the registered keeper at DVLA and on PNC then you will not need to be served an NIP. There would therefore be no late NIP if the registered keeper was served inside 14 days.

I'm with you re the lateness aspect, but I don't get the bit in bold.

I was under the impression that once the RK had nominated a driver that person still has to be served with a NIP.
Otherwise how would they know that they were about to be subjected to sanction?
I'm asking because I have never been targeted in respect of a vehicle of which I wasn't the RK.

[SS2.]

Red Devil said:

I was under the impression that once the RK had nominated a driver that person still has to be served with a NIP.

There's a requirement to serve an initial NoIP on the driver / the RK - that's the extent of it.

Nominated drivers may well receive a document titled 'Notice of Intended Prosecution' along with a s.172 request, but the police / SCP are under no statutory obligation to send this and their case wouldn't be affected if they didn't.

Edited by SS2. on Wednesday 26th October 08:09

[tapereel]

Red Devil said:

tapereel said:

If VWFS are listed as the registered keeper at DVLA and on PNC then you will not need to be served an NIP. There would therefore be no late NIP if the registered keeper was served inside 14 days.

I'm with you re the lateness aspect, but I don't get the bit in bold.

I was under the impression that once the RK had nominated a driver that person still has to be served with a NIP.
Otherwise how would they know that they were about to be subjected to sanction?
I'm asking because I have never been targeted in respect of a vehicle of which I wasn't the RK.

A NIP is required to be served on the registered keeper.
A S172 notice will accompany that NIP
A person subsequently nominated on a S172 request need only be sent aS172 request not a NIP.
A S172 request is sometimes called a NIP by people who don't know the difference between it and a NIP.
Sometimes a NIP accompanies a S172 request to a nominated person but it need not and it is best not to because it causes confusion, as it confused you perhaps.
There you go.

[Red Devil]

SS2. said:

Red Devil said:

I was under the impression that once the RK had nominated a driver that person still has to be served with a NIP.

There's a requirement to serve an initial NoIP on the driver / the RK - that's the extent of it.

Nominated drivers may well receive a document titled 'Notice of Intended Prosecution' along with a s.172 request, but the police / SCP are under no statutory obligation to send this and their case wouldn't be affected if they didn't.

Thanks for the clarification.

tapereel said:

...as it confused you perhaps.

No. I am quite well aware of the difference between a S.172 and a NIP.
They relate to different things and this is obvious given that there are separate penalties attached to them.
As my post made quite clear I lacked the specific experience on which to draw. There is a difference, even if this passed you by.