is it ever going to happen?
Discussion
Before I say anything, I must make clear that I have no inside information on the new TVR operation at all. Nothing. Nada. But after a long business life seeing companies start , some succeed and many more fail, I am uneasy about the chances of the new TVR car ever appearing. I hope sincerely that it does appear, and I could well be a customer if it did. But all my business instincts tell me that its too quiet, its taking too long and the project isnt going well.
Lets hope that I am wrong.
Has anyone got any hard info? Has anyone been to see how the project is going? Anyone on here a supplier with some knowledge? Anyone been asked to supply?
Lets hope that I am wrong.
Has anyone got any hard info? Has anyone been to see how the project is going? Anyone on here a supplier with some knowledge? Anyone been asked to supply?
I wonder how Ebbw Vale RFC are getting on?Look at it the other (positive) way and the reveal for deposit holders has been announced for late Jan early Feb. Nothing I've seen or heard suggests that won't happen. Assuming it does, everyone will have something to talk excitedly about or criticise. If it doesn't, I imagine most deposit holders will look to get their money back. Either way, not long to wait now!
Edited by Englishman on Saturday 24th December 12:30
It's an interesting question as to how sustainable the business model is but I have a view that it will be alright. A lot depends on what they reveal in March. If it still looks half finished or a 'concept car', then I for one will ask for my money back.
But I have a good feeling that we will see a production ready machine. But I suspect there's a snowball's chance in hell that we will see a car in 2017.
But I have a good feeling that we will see a production ready machine. But I suspect there's a snowball's chance in hell that we will see a car in 2017.
I'm confident that by late 2017, press cars, and the first deliveries of customer cars will be on the road.. say 1st 20-50 cars in total, maybe out of a Gordon Murray facility?with tvr factory to stat end next year/early Jan 2018, that would make sense, as they are starting from scratch.
Christmas 2016 TVR update below..
As we head home for Christmas, I am pleased to be able to write to you with a note on the progress we have made since our last update.
Most importantly (and excitingly!) we are now able to confirm the timing and location of the first depositor reveal mentioned in my last note. We have had to shift the date slightly, for two reasons:
Firstly - logistics; we had an enormous response to the initial invitation, and this has required a re-think both of venue and presentation, as below -
Secondly - a more technical (and practical!) reason – anyone who has ever developed a car will tell you that it takes twice as long (and costs twice as much!) as anyone ever allows for, and that half the work lies in the last 5% of development and design. They aren't kidding! As such, it is only last week that we finally signed off the aero detailing to the rear of the car (I'll say no more about that pending the reveal, as we don't want to give the game away), meaning that the final iteration of the full size model has only just been commissioned, and will be with us late in January.
The original plan was for a single reveal with all invitees and their guests, in a large hall, but with 500 attendees already confirmed at the time of writing, we don’t believe this will be either as effective or personal as we want it to be.
We are therefore proposing more 'intimate' (if you'll forgive the phrase!) reveals over the weekends of 18/19th March and 25/26th March 2017, to be held at our design studio at Gordon Murray’s facility in Shalford, near to Guildford.
There will 2 morning and 2 afternoon sessions each day - each session being allocated on a first come first served basis - allowing proper interaction between our depositors and myself and the TVR team, with time for individual and group discussion and conversation, which I'm sure you'll agree is is much better, and much more 'TVR', than us addressing a conference room full of 500 people but managing to spend no meaningful time with any of you.
The facility at GMD has some pretty tight restrictions in place (principally of course because there are various other manufacturers’ equally confidential projects under development on site), so there are a number of procedures in place which we need to adhere to. We will need full name and address for each attendee (including guest), and photographic proof of ID will be required when you arrive. One person from each couple must be a depositor, and the invitations are non-transferable. We will forward visitor non-disclosure agreements for signature and return to us prior to the event. Sorry to be formal on this bit, but I’m sure you understand - and please, don't even think of trying to bend the rules or that you can sneak a mate in on the day - we have to ask that you respect both the letter and the spirit of the invitation.
There will be plenty of parking on site and we’d love you to come in your TVR if you can – we’ll reserve spaces for those that do where possible and there will be an official photographer present to capture the magic of the day. There will of course however be a total embargo on visitor photography - again, please respect this.
In closing, we are really looking forward to showing you what we’ve achieved, and formal invitations will issue early in the New year. We will also be announcing full details of the full public release later in the year - we can't share detail yet, but suffice to say we're delighted with the arrangements that are in hand.
On the twelfth day of Christmas our Truelove gave to we:
Twelve Petrol_heads,
Eleven years-a-waiting,
Ten - tenths commitment,
Nine months to launch,
Eight pistons firing,
Seven chaps from Cosworth,
Six cogs from Tremec (oops, did I say that out loud?!),
F i v e—hundred-cars,
Fourhundred brake a ton
Three french cops
Twohundredmiles an hour
And a chas-sis from Gor_don Murrrayy!
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year from everybody at TVR!
Les Edgar
Chairman
TVR Manufacturing Ltd
www.tvr.co.uk
note the NDA, location. etc
Gordon Murray has also got a big deal of his reputation wrapped up in this.
There is every reason to be very positive.
also, that carol... 9 months to launch, and a Tremec gearbox (not really a surprise)
Christmas 2016 TVR update below..
As we head home for Christmas, I am pleased to be able to write to you with a note on the progress we have made since our last update.
Most importantly (and excitingly!) we are now able to confirm the timing and location of the first depositor reveal mentioned in my last note. We have had to shift the date slightly, for two reasons:
Firstly - logistics; we had an enormous response to the initial invitation, and this has required a re-think both of venue and presentation, as below -
Secondly - a more technical (and practical!) reason – anyone who has ever developed a car will tell you that it takes twice as long (and costs twice as much!) as anyone ever allows for, and that half the work lies in the last 5% of development and design. They aren't kidding! As such, it is only last week that we finally signed off the aero detailing to the rear of the car (I'll say no more about that pending the reveal, as we don't want to give the game away), meaning that the final iteration of the full size model has only just been commissioned, and will be with us late in January.
The original plan was for a single reveal with all invitees and their guests, in a large hall, but with 500 attendees already confirmed at the time of writing, we don’t believe this will be either as effective or personal as we want it to be.
We are therefore proposing more 'intimate' (if you'll forgive the phrase!) reveals over the weekends of 18/19th March and 25/26th March 2017, to be held at our design studio at Gordon Murray’s facility in Shalford, near to Guildford.
There will 2 morning and 2 afternoon sessions each day - each session being allocated on a first come first served basis - allowing proper interaction between our depositors and myself and the TVR team, with time for individual and group discussion and conversation, which I'm sure you'll agree is is much better, and much more 'TVR', than us addressing a conference room full of 500 people but managing to spend no meaningful time with any of you.
The facility at GMD has some pretty tight restrictions in place (principally of course because there are various other manufacturers’ equally confidential projects under development on site), so there are a number of procedures in place which we need to adhere to. We will need full name and address for each attendee (including guest), and photographic proof of ID will be required when you arrive. One person from each couple must be a depositor, and the invitations are non-transferable. We will forward visitor non-disclosure agreements for signature and return to us prior to the event. Sorry to be formal on this bit, but I’m sure you understand - and please, don't even think of trying to bend the rules or that you can sneak a mate in on the day - we have to ask that you respect both the letter and the spirit of the invitation.
There will be plenty of parking on site and we’d love you to come in your TVR if you can – we’ll reserve spaces for those that do where possible and there will be an official photographer present to capture the magic of the day. There will of course however be a total embargo on visitor photography - again, please respect this.
In closing, we are really looking forward to showing you what we’ve achieved, and formal invitations will issue early in the New year. We will also be announcing full details of the full public release later in the year - we can't share detail yet, but suffice to say we're delighted with the arrangements that are in hand.
On the twelfth day of Christmas our Truelove gave to we:
Twelve Petrol_heads,
Eleven years-a-waiting,
Ten - tenths commitment,
Nine months to launch,
Eight pistons firing,
Seven chaps from Cosworth,
Six cogs from Tremec (oops, did I say that out loud?!),
F i v e—hundred-cars,
Fourhundred brake a ton
Three french cops
Twohundredmiles an hour
And a chas-sis from Gor_don Murrrayy!
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year from everybody at TVR!
Les Edgar
Chairman
TVR Manufacturing Ltd
www.tvr.co.uk
==================
note the NDA, location. etc
Gordon Murray has also got a big deal of his reputation wrapped up in this.
There is every reason to be very positive.
also, that carol... 9 months to launch, and a Tremec gearbox (not really a surprise)
Edited by BJWoods on Tuesday 27th December 19:14
Edited by BJWoods on Tuesday 27th December 19:17
TVR said:
Secondly - a more technical (and practical!) reason – anyone who has ever developed a car will tell you that it takes twice as long (and costs twice as much!) as anyone ever allows for
Sorry, but B*ll*cks. It only takes twice as long if you have completely failed to establish the necessary workscope in your development plan and business case.Every day, car companies round the world manage to get new product to their customers without excessive delay caused by a lack of experience, poor planning, or the in-ability to accept, and hence plan for, the truth.
When TVR announced their new car, roughly 18 months ago, and the timings were announced i noted immediately on those threads that those timings were completely un-realistic. Fast forward a year and a half and now TVR is saying "oh, sorry, chaps, it'll take a bit longer than we said it would" Frankly, that's the least surprising revelation i've ever heard.
And going forwards, it's still looking very very difficult to meet the current suggested timings. I mean, they haven't even got a fixed aero buck, let alone a CP, or heaven forbid 1PP / 2PP level test mule built. And then there are the (enormous) issues of getting into (even limited) series production with no pre-existing manufacturing facility, or production off tools components and processes, all of which could easily take 3 years to sort out!
Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 28th December 13:53
Max_Torque said:
.... all of which could easily take 3 years to sort out!
Max, sounds like you know at least something about the process of developing a new car - what with all those TLAs thrown in there. With GM involved and clearly some skin in the game - at least reputation wise - what do you think would be a realistic timeline for all 500 cars to be delivered? I reckon I'm about 350 in the queue, or at least I was at the time of placing my deposit, what should I expect to see in March and what questions should I be asking to be confident to put more down, as I am sure we will be asked to do. I've never owned a TVR but the idea of a NA V8 putting circa 500bhp through a manual gearbox in a 1200kg car riding a GM chassis sounds mouth watering and I'm not about to give up on them yet. Far from it. It doesn't sound like you're a deposit holder so you're unlikely to be at one of the March events, but what would you be asking them if you were there?
thecook101 said:
Max, sounds like you know at least something about the process of developing a new car - what with all those TLAs thrown in there. With GM involved and clearly some skin in the game - at least reputation wise - what do you think would be a realistic timeline for all 500 cars to be delivered? I reckon I'm about 350 in the queue, or at least I was at the time of placing my deposit, what should I expect to see in March and what questions should I be asking to be confident to put more down, as I am sure we will be asked to do.
I've never owned a TVR but the idea of a NA V8 putting circa 500bhp through a manual gearbox in a 1200kg car riding a GM chassis sounds mouth watering and I'm not about to give up on them yet. Far from it. It doesn't sound like you're a deposit holder so you're unlikely to be at one of the March events, but what would you be asking them if you were there?
Ian, don't get too bogged down with all the negative comments that are on here. Everyone is an expert on hereI've never owned a TVR but the idea of a NA V8 putting circa 500bhp through a manual gearbox in a 1200kg car riding a GM chassis sounds mouth watering and I'm not about to give up on them yet. Far from it. It doesn't sound like you're a deposit holder so you're unlikely to be at one of the March events, but what would you be asking them if you were there?
and I'm sure that LE will deliver a fantastic product. I am probably a little bias, as having owned 12 Tiv's over the years, they tend to get in your blood.These are exciting times, and I am sure that you won't be disappointed in March.
thecook101 said:
but what would you be asking them if you were there?
I'd want to see the program plan. Ok, a sanitised version will do, without all the details, but showing significant milestones and gateways, and then asking for TVR to report to its deposit holders as they reach each gateway, giving them a progress report and establishing that the necessary tasks to pass each milestone have been completed. Basically, std program management, none of which seems to be in any evidence so far.That plan also should show the buildup to series production, and that the necessary manufacturing support / processes are in place.
As a deposit holder i'd also want to know what their prototype and fleet validation program looks like, ie, how many mule cars are they going to build, and how will those mules be updated to production off-tool components etc. In 2016, it's not hard to build a low volume sports car, but it IS hard to make one that is robust, reliable, repairable, safe, with good NVH, crash performance, decent handling. So far, companies like caterham, Mono, Arial et-al have all shown they can make a reasonably successful low volume high performance product, but all that the "Basic and easy" approach, with minimum parts, no doors / roofs, no weather sealing, HVAC etc. And all those boring, but practical things take a LOT of work to develop and validate.
So, imo, can TVR build a low volume V8 sports car? Yes, of course they can.
Will it be a good car, usable on a daily basis by normal people, be reliable enough to not spend the whole time in the (non-existant) dealer? Well, those questions are a lot harder to answer..........
Max_Torque said:
I'd want to see the program plan. Ok, a sanitised version will do, without all the details, but showing significant milestones and gateways, and then asking for TVR to report to its deposit holders as they reach each gateway, giving them a progress report and establishing that the necessary tasks to pass each milestone have been completed. Basically, std program management, none of which seems to be in any evidence so far.
That plan also should show the buildup to series production, and that the necessary manufacturing support / processes are in place.
As a deposit holder i'd also want to know what their prototype and fleet validation program looks like, ie, how many mule cars are they going to build, and how will those mules be updated to production off-tool components etc. In 2016, it's not hard to build a low volume sports car, but it IS hard to make one that is robust, reliable, repairable, safe, with good NVH, crash performance, decent handling. So far, companies like caterham, Mono, Arial et-al have all shown they can make a reasonably successful low volume high performance product, but all that the "Basic and easy" approach, with minimum parts, no doors / roofs, no weST3 5LB
ather sealing, HVAC etc. And all those boring, but practical things take a LOT of work to develop and validate.
So, imo, can TVR build a low volume V8 sports car? Yes, of course they can.
Will it be a good car, usable on a daily basis by normal people, be reliable enough to not spend the whole time in the (non-existant) dealer? Well, those questions are a lot harder to answer..........
Why aren't you buying one?That plan also should show the buildup to series production, and that the necessary manufacturing support / processes are in place.
As a deposit holder i'd also want to know what their prototype and fleet validation program looks like, ie, how many mule cars are they going to build, and how will those mules be updated to production off-tool components etc. In 2016, it's not hard to build a low volume sports car, but it IS hard to make one that is robust, reliable, repairable, safe, with good NVH, crash performance, decent handling. So far, companies like caterham, Mono, Arial et-al have all shown they can make a reasonably successful low volume high performance product, but all that the "Basic and easy" approach, with minimum parts, no doors / roofs, no weST3 5LB
ather sealing, HVAC etc. And all those boring, but practical things take a LOT of work to develop and validate.
So, imo, can TVR build a low volume V8 sports car? Yes, of course they can.
Will it be a good car, usable on a daily basis by normal people, be reliable enough to not spend the whole time in the (non-existant) dealer? Well, those questions are a lot harder to answer..........
Max_Torque said:
If they can deliver a reliable, laugh out loud, 200mph, OMFG! drivers car with the LE for under £100k then they'll have my money. Not too many of those going to be made again. I'm genuinely excited to see what's behind the curtain in March.
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