is it ever going to happen?
Discussion
Gordon Murray has been interviewed a number of times, Autocar, Evo and elsewhere.
Screen cap Evo interview
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=161...
Screen cap Evo interview
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=161...
Edited by BJWoods on Friday 30th December 18:58
Monkeylegend said:
The issue for TVR as I see it is not the first offering assuming that sees the light of day, but having a sustainable long term business with ever changing legislation.
The two are connected. TVR may have all the necessary money already tied up irrevocably but I would be surprised. More likely those holding the purse strings, and being asked for the next tranche of £, will be wondering about the business model post brexit and trump etc etc. The key issue is the money rather than the engineering.bordseye said:
Monkeylegend said:
The issue for TVR as I see it is not the first offering assuming that sees the light of day, but having a sustainable long term business with ever changing legislation.
The two are connected. TVR may have all the necessary money already tied up irrevocably but I would be surprised. More likely those holding the purse strings, and being asked for the next tranche of £, will be wondering about the business model post brexit and trump etc etc. The key issue is the money rather than the engineering.TVRMs said:
Only TVR folk could put positive spin on yet another delay in showing folk something beyond boxes draped in cloth. 
The longer this goes on, the more it looks like a charade. All IMO of course...
imo.. very silly.. do you really think Gordon Murray would be part of such a charade, and willing to put his reputation at risk.The longer this goes on, the more it looks like a charade. All IMO of course...
It's an opinion, you think it's very silly, that's your opinion and I respect it.
However, I'm fairly sure it would not be the first time an engineer was involved in a business that failed to deliver. Not suggesting the business will not deliver as that would be me jumping to conclusions and that would be very very silly...
I just hinted at a possible credibility issue .
I decided some time ago that any new TVR badged car was not for me, for a number of reasons, but I still hope the team deliver an acceptable product in a timescale thats acceptable to folk with the faith to have placed deposits
However, I'm fairly sure it would not be the first time an engineer was involved in a business that failed to deliver. Not suggesting the business will not deliver as that would be me jumping to conclusions and that would be very very silly...
I just hinted at a possible credibility issue .
I decided some time ago that any new TVR badged car was not for me, for a number of reasons, but I still hope the team deliver an acceptable product in a timescale thats acceptable to folk with the faith to have placed deposits
Edited by anonymous-user on Saturday 31st December 18:32
TVRMs said:
It's an opinion, you think it's very silly, that's your opinion and I respect it.
However, I'm fairly sure it would not be the first time an engineer was involved in a business that failed to deliver. Not suggesting the business will not deliver as that would be me jumping to conclusions and that would be very very silly...
I just hinted at a possible credibility issue .
I decided some time ago that any new TVR badged car was not for me, for a number of reasons, but I still hope the team deliver an acceptable product in a timescale thats acceptable to folk with the faith to have placed deposits
C'mon…It really must be happening now..We've been treated to a multicoloured picture of a ford production engine and today we have the revelation that it will be bolted up to a Tremec Gearbox….Tremec mind you and with CUSTOM Ratios!!!!However, I'm fairly sure it would not be the first time an engineer was involved in a business that failed to deliver. Not suggesting the business will not deliver as that would be me jumping to conclusions and that would be very very silly...
I just hinted at a possible credibility issue .
I decided some time ago that any new TVR badged car was not for me, for a number of reasons, but I still hope the team deliver an acceptable product in a timescale thats acceptable to folk with the faith to have placed deposits
Edited by TVRMs on Saturday 31st December 18:32
WOW!!!
N.
Dollyman1850 said:
C'mon…It really must be happening now..We've been treated to a multicoloured picture of a ford production engine and today we have the revelation that it will be bolted up to a Tremec Gearbox….Tremec mind you and with CUSTOM Ratios!!!!
WOW!!!
N.
and your alternate scenario is?.....WOW!!!
N.
it is all a fantasy.. and Gordon Murray being interviewed saying he was going to be involved all the way until customers get handed the keys to their car? [Evo] was just said to be maximally damaging to his credibility, because it is not going to happen..
The are keeping it secret... nothing like any oher car companies then, with a new model, that wants to launch to the media, for maximum publicity.
Edited by BJWoods on Saturday 31st December 21:46
Max_Torque said:
Sorry, but B*ll*cks. It only takes twice as long if you have completely failed to establish the necessary workscope in your development plan and business case.
Every day, car companies round the world manage to get new product to their customers without excessive delay caused by a lack of experience, poor planning, or the in-ability to accept, and hence plan for, the truth.
When TVR announced their new car, roughly 18 months ago, and the timings were announced i noted immediately on those threads that those timings were completely un-realistic. Fast forward a year and a half and now TVR is saying "oh, sorry, chaps, it'll take a bit longer than we said it would" Frankly, that's the least surprising revelation i've ever heard.
And going forwards, it's still looking very very difficult to meet the current suggested timings. I mean, they haven't even got a fixed aero buck, let alone a CP, or heaven forbid 1PP / 2PP level test mule built. And then there are the (enormous) issues of getting into (even limited) series production with no pre-existing manufacturing facility, or production off tools components and processes, all of which could easily take 3 years to sort out!
How do you know what they've built and what they haven't? They were running AP level at first quarter of last year, so they must be at least at PP1 unless something's gone badly wrong. And the assertion that it would take three years to scratch-build a factory to build product utilising the well-practised I-stream process is laughable...Every day, car companies round the world manage to get new product to their customers without excessive delay caused by a lack of experience, poor planning, or the in-ability to accept, and hence plan for, the truth.
When TVR announced their new car, roughly 18 months ago, and the timings were announced i noted immediately on those threads that those timings were completely un-realistic. Fast forward a year and a half and now TVR is saying "oh, sorry, chaps, it'll take a bit longer than we said it would" Frankly, that's the least surprising revelation i've ever heard.
And going forwards, it's still looking very very difficult to meet the current suggested timings. I mean, they haven't even got a fixed aero buck, let alone a CP, or heaven forbid 1PP / 2PP level test mule built. And then there are the (enormous) issues of getting into (even limited) series production with no pre-existing manufacturing facility, or production off tools components and processes, all of which could easily take 3 years to sort out!
Edited by Max_Torque on Wednesday 28th December 13:53
Cerberaherts said:
Max_Torque said:
Sorry, but B*ll*cks. It only takes twice as long if you have completely failed to establish the necessary workscope in your development plan and business case.
Every day, car companies round the world manage to get new product to their customers without excessive delay caused by a lack of experience, poor planning, or the in-ability to accept, and hence plan for, the truth.
When TVR announced their new car, roughly 18 months ago, and the timings were announced i noted immediately on those threads that those timings were completely un-realistic. Fast forward a year and a half and now TVR is saying "oh, sorry, chaps, it'll take a bit longer than we said it would" Frankly, that's the least surprising revelation i've ever heard.
And going forwards, it's still looking very very difficult to meet the current suggested timings. I mean, they haven't even got a fixed aero buck, let alone a CP, or heaven forbid 1PP / 2PP level test mule built. And then there are the (enormous) issues of getting into (even limited) series production with no pre-existing manufacturing facility, or production off tools components and processes, all of which could easily take 3 years to sort out!
How do you know what they've built and what they haven't? They were running AP level at first quarter of last year, so they must be at least at PP1 unless something's gone badly wrong. And the assertion that it would take three years to scratch-build a factory to build product utilising the well-practised I-stream process is laughable...Every day, car companies round the world manage to get new product to their customers without excessive delay caused by a lack of experience, poor planning, or the in-ability to accept, and hence plan for, the truth.
When TVR announced their new car, roughly 18 months ago, and the timings were announced i noted immediately on those threads that those timings were completely un-realistic. Fast forward a year and a half and now TVR is saying "oh, sorry, chaps, it'll take a bit longer than we said it would" Frankly, that's the least surprising revelation i've ever heard.
And going forwards, it's still looking very very difficult to meet the current suggested timings. I mean, they haven't even got a fixed aero buck, let alone a CP, or heaven forbid 1PP / 2PP level test mule built. And then there are the (enormous) issues of getting into (even limited) series production with no pre-existing manufacturing facility, or production off tools components and processes, all of which could easily take 3 years to sort out!
Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 28th December 13:53
Who quickly would you suggest that one could set up, from scratch, a production facility in the UK? Considering that they don't even have the people in place (see advert on TVR site for production planners......) yet to even start planning it, let alone doing it?? And whilst I-stream doesn't use large, complex, long lead time pressings (neither do the AML/Lotus VH system, or event he original Elise, build way back in the late 90's, so it's hardly "new" tech), TVR are talking about increasing use of carbon for the first cars, which has a huge tooling overhead. And tooling is just one issue, you need to source the first batch of off-tool parts, then develop a build line and process, with suitable quality control, and there is a huge amount of effort required to do that, even to make say 20 cars. Sure the first cars will be built entirely by hand, in a workshop (rather than on a line) but they can't afford to do that for production as it will triple the cost of the car, and lead to a very high reject rate.
We dont know how much pre planning and preparation they did. They signed on the line for the factory only in March and if they started everything else around then, you are right. But we know they started the engine earlier than March and they may well have done the same for other aspects of the build like moulds for the grp.
Time will tell but I am not enough of a gambler to be willing to put down a deposit until I see the facility up and working.
Time will tell but I am not enough of a gambler to be willing to put down a deposit until I see the facility up and working.
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