Test Drive Accident
Discussion
I was so shocked to hear about tobys accident.
We grew up together in Great Leighs.
I was fortunate enough to come up to melton and stay at tobys with friends. He was the perfect gentleman and host.It was great to see his parents too!.
We had a great weekend and had a lot of laughs, the four of us shared memories of our school days.
I realised when i stayed, that toby had matured into a well focused and extremely friendly lad, whose passion for TVRs was there for all to admire.
Its a credit to Alan and Sue for his upbringing and perhaps we can all take small comfort in the knowledge he died doing what he loved most!!
Heaven only takes the best........my thoughts are with you all!
We grew up together in Great Leighs.
I was fortunate enough to come up to melton and stay at tobys with friends. He was the perfect gentleman and host.It was great to see his parents too!.
We had a great weekend and had a lot of laughs, the four of us shared memories of our school days.
I realised when i stayed, that toby had matured into a well focused and extremely friendly lad, whose passion for TVRs was there for all to admire.
Its a credit to Alan and Sue for his upbringing and perhaps we can all take small comfort in the knowledge he died doing what he loved most!!
Heaven only takes the best........my thoughts are with you all!
Just wanted to say how very sorry i was to hear of the tragic loss of Toby, my recently ex boyfriend is a TVR Dealer and it always crossed my mind what if.
He himself told me when it happened and i really wanted to post a message then, maybe a little too late, but always remember the good times, and by reading the thread I know what a terrific guy you've all lost.
Rest in Peace Toby, look down and look after us.
Sleep tight...
He himself told me when it happened and i really wanted to post a message then, maybe a little too late, but always remember the good times, and by reading the thread I know what a terrific guy you've all lost.
Rest in Peace Toby, look down and look after us.
Sleep tight...
I hope this thread is still open and that by posting now it is picked up by all the wonderful people who helped Sue and I last year when Toby was killed. I kept the details of the thread and even downloaded a printed version to save with all the other ‘memories’ of Toby. I hope some of you can help me again now.
To cut a long story short the driver was eventually charged with ‘Driving without due care etc’ and was found NOT GUILTY. The verdict itself was not an issue since we bore no malice. However, to my horror, whilst giving his evidence, the driver stated on no less than 4 occasions that Toby had NOT explained the high performance and handling characteristics of TVRs either before or during the test drive. I believe this is absolutely untrue.
A number of you refer to buying cars through Toby and many actually refer to test drives. If Toby arranged a test drive for you, I would ask you please to EMAIL ME DIRECT and tell me everything you remember Toby did or explained during your particular test drive(s) ie what he did and/or explained in the showroom, when introducing you to the car, during the out-drive, when handing over the keys for you to drive and finally during your drive.
Please do not feel obliged but if you are able to provide this information you have my sincere thanks.
Alan
To cut a long story short the driver was eventually charged with ‘Driving without due care etc’ and was found NOT GUILTY. The verdict itself was not an issue since we bore no malice. However, to my horror, whilst giving his evidence, the driver stated on no less than 4 occasions that Toby had NOT explained the high performance and handling characteristics of TVRs either before or during the test drive. I believe this is absolutely untrue.
A number of you refer to buying cars through Toby and many actually refer to test drives. If Toby arranged a test drive for you, I would ask you please to EMAIL ME DIRECT and tell me everything you remember Toby did or explained during your particular test drive(s) ie what he did and/or explained in the showroom, when introducing you to the car, during the out-drive, when handing over the keys for you to drive and finally during your drive.
Please do not feel obliged but if you are able to provide this information you have my sincere thanks.
Alan
I read a report on the case in AM Online today. The court "consider[ed] evidence that showed the TVR Tuscan was difficult to control even for an experienced driver". Apparently the defence staged a 'reconstruction' of some kind with an 'experienced driver' to show "a similar TVR still swerving when it hit 60mph in third gear". I was gobsmacked to read it. I wonder about the ramifications of some of the court comments. To swerve (lose traction?) in 3rd gear in a Tuscan implies clumsy/reckless inputs on the accelerator, period.
There is no way that ANY TVR salesman wouldn't REPEATEDLY point out the need for moderation when driving a TVR. I agree with Toby's father's sentiments - it's not about retribution, it's about somebody clearly - in my opinion - lying and casting his word against the one person's word we can no longer hear.
There is no way that ANY TVR salesman wouldn't REPEATEDLY point out the need for moderation when driving a TVR. I agree with Toby's father's sentiments - it's not about retribution, it's about somebody clearly - in my opinion - lying and casting his word against the one person's word we can no longer hear.
900T-R said:
Julian64 said:
But surely the guy was only trying to mitigate his sentence.
Pretty low way to do it, though given that Toby wasn't there to defend himself from his allegations. Words fail me.
Agreed, But I think high in the minds of the people listening would be that very thought.
Oh dear, oh dear what a stupid society we now live in, has no judge or magistrate heard of "common sense"
My wife and I met Toby several times early 05 when buying our Sagaris our test drives were unfortunately arranged with Jeremy but I have to say we found Toby very professional in the way he handed out advice and think this guys defence stinks!
My wife and I met Toby several times early 05 when buying our Sagaris our test drives were unfortunately arranged with Jeremy but I have to say we found Toby very professional in the way he handed out advice and think this guys defence stinks!
Edited by noddy2 on Wednesday 25th October 16:56
Whilst I feel sorry for your loss and appreciate your position, what you are asking people to do by way of providing statements is unlikely to have any effect except to prolong your grief.
Even if you get many statements saying that Toby always warned about the performance and handling characteristics of a TVR Tuscan, then that evidence is only of limited value because it does not prove that that is what Toby said in this case.
The Defendant will say that Toby may have told that to 1 million previous test drivers, but he did not tell the Defendant. How can the Court agree with the Prosecution when there is no evidence from Toby or anyone who heard Toby tell the Defendant about the car?
The Defendant will also say that if Toby had told him about the dangerous handling characteristics of the Tuscan as demonstrated by the Defence's reconstruction, then he would never have tested the car in the first place and that is why he is clear that he was not told by Toby about the car.
Do not forget, that to convict in a criminal case, the burden of proof is "beyond reasonable doubt". I.e. so that you are sure. It is not "more likely than not".
The evidence that you seek, for the reasons set out above will never come up to that standard of proof.
I sympathise with you and whilst I have never met nor do I know Toby or the Defendant, I suspect that he did explain all about TVRs, the law is the law.
Even if you get many statements saying that Toby always warned about the performance and handling characteristics of a TVR Tuscan, then that evidence is only of limited value because it does not prove that that is what Toby said in this case.
The Defendant will say that Toby may have told that to 1 million previous test drivers, but he did not tell the Defendant. How can the Court agree with the Prosecution when there is no evidence from Toby or anyone who heard Toby tell the Defendant about the car?
The Defendant will also say that if Toby had told him about the dangerous handling characteristics of the Tuscan as demonstrated by the Defence's reconstruction, then he would never have tested the car in the first place and that is why he is clear that he was not told by Toby about the car.
Do not forget, that to convict in a criminal case, the burden of proof is "beyond reasonable doubt". I.e. so that you are sure. It is not "more likely than not".
The evidence that you seek, for the reasons set out above will never come up to that standard of proof.
I sympathise with you and whilst I have never met nor do I know Toby or the Defendant, I suspect that he did explain all about TVRs, the law is the law.
Redtuscan said:
How can the Court agree with the Prosecution when there is no evidence from Toby or anyone who heard Toby tell the Defendant about the car?
I understand what you are saying, but surely if a number of people who have purchased TVRs after a test drive with Toby stepped forward to put their point of view stating that Toby did make the relative remarks re the power of the TVR, surely there would be some sort of precedence there?
His professionalism must have already been well discussed.
Surely a jury/judge would appreciate that those people would not be prepared to perjure themselves if asked to stand up in court and give their evidence. That must give credence to their testimonies.....surely...
Bit out of my depth here...no nothing about courts!
YP
What would all this achieve? It's not going to bring Toby back. And those who knew him will know that however he may have been portrayed in court is not what he was like. There are many things at stake in a court trial, and people often lie/misspeak to cover their ass. It's not right, but that's what happens.
Edited by orgasmicliving!! on Wednesday 25th October 18:06
BossCerbera said:
I read a report on the case in AM Online today. The court "consider[ed] evidence that showed the TVR Tuscan was difficult to control even for an experienced driver". Apparently the defence staged a 'reconstruction' of some kind with an 'experienced driver' to show "a similar TVR still swerving when it hit 60mph in third gear". I was gobsmacked to read it. I wonder about the ramifications of some of the court comments. To swerve (lose traction?) in 3rd gear in a Tuscan implies clumsy/reckless inputs on the accelerator, period.
There is no way that ANY TVR salesman wouldn't REPEATEDLY point out the need for moderation when driving a TVR. I agree with Toby's father's sentiments - it's not about retribution, it's about somebody clearly - in my opinion - lying and casting his word against the one person's word we can no longer hear.
There is no way that ANY TVR salesman wouldn't REPEATEDLY point out the need for moderation when driving a TVR. I agree with Toby's father's sentiments - it's not about retribution, it's about somebody clearly - in my opinion - lying and casting his word against the one person's word we can no longer hear.
I agree wholeheartedly. The very fact that the car was being driven on a test drive would seem to show that the potential customer was interested in the cars performance (stopping and handling as well as go). The performance would have been obvious to even the most dense person as soon as the accelerator pedal is depressed. To lose control of the car and then blame the passenger (who cannot control the car from that seat, other than maybe grabbing at the wheel or handbrake) for the resulting crash is just the most stupid claim I have ever heard.
Alan
Words fail me and I know that from working with Toby he would have and always did do his job 110% (especially on this point of safety and a TVR's high perfomance characterists - as this is one of the selling/buying points of such a vehicle)
We also know that on the particular test-drive the driver actually signed a purpose designed form which states something along the lines of
"I ***** ***** have been aware of the high performance and handling characterists of the TVR's. I shall drive the car with due care and attention and adhere to all motoring regulations"
From what I am aware he signed this A4 Accompanied Demonstration Car Agreement, along with other information - I too struggle to understand why the police didn't even think it of interest to even mention this in the courtroom.
I grew up 5 miles down the road from where it happened and know the cars very well, the situation, the passenger and the conditions on that day.
The result isn't the correct one - however you look at it
Words fail me and I know that from working with Toby he would have and always did do his job 110% (especially on this point of safety and a TVR's high perfomance characterists - as this is one of the selling/buying points of such a vehicle)
We also know that on the particular test-drive the driver actually signed a purpose designed form which states something along the lines of
"I ***** ***** have been aware of the high performance and handling characterists of the TVR's. I shall drive the car with due care and attention and adhere to all motoring regulations"
From what I am aware he signed this A4 Accompanied Demonstration Car Agreement, along with other information - I too struggle to understand why the police didn't even think it of interest to even mention this in the courtroom.
I grew up 5 miles down the road from where it happened and know the cars very well, the situation, the passenger and the conditions on that day.
The result isn't the correct one - however you look at it
groombridge said:
Hello everyone
I am Toby's girlfriend Chrissie. I just want to thank you all so much for your kind words and thoughts. Alan told me about your forum but it has taken me until now to be able to read it and it really has bought some comfort. It is great to hear how much Toby was respected in the community.
The last time Tobes took me out it was in a bright orange Sagaras. I feel so honered to have seen how much joy he got from driving and to share the experience with him (not that he would ever have let me drive it, and I did try!)
He really was a very special and precious young man whoes passion for cars, life, his family and friends was infecious. Words can't describe how much we will miss him.
I hope to meet some of you on Thursday. Tobe will be so happy to see so many TVR's in the village and so will his family and I. I can't think of a better way to give him a special send off.
Huge hugs and lots of love to everyone who knew him
Chrissie x
I hope this will give you some comfort AT THE END only TWO things really matter to a man,regardless of who he is,and they are;the affection and understanding of his family.Anything and everything else he creates is insubstantial;it is a ship given over to the mercy of winds and tides of prejudice. BUT the FAMILY is an everlasting anchorage,a quiet harbour where a mans ship can be left to swing to the moorings of pride loyalty. I am Toby's girlfriend Chrissie. I just want to thank you all so much for your kind words and thoughts. Alan told me about your forum but it has taken me until now to be able to read it and it really has bought some comfort. It is great to hear how much Toby was respected in the community.
The last time Tobes took me out it was in a bright orange Sagaras. I feel so honered to have seen how much joy he got from driving and to share the experience with him (not that he would ever have let me drive it, and I did try!)
He really was a very special and precious young man whoes passion for cars, life, his family and friends was infecious. Words can't describe how much we will miss him.
I hope to meet some of you on Thursday. Tobe will be so happy to see so many TVR's in the village and so will his family and I. I can't think of a better way to give him a special send off.
Huge hugs and lots of love to everyone who knew him
Chrissie x
Edited by sen 18 on Wednesday 25th October 22:24
ing bollox to admit it, tosser 
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