Test Drive Accident

[tvrchim]

This really gets my goat, if you kill someone through your own stupidity or total lack of driving ability then at least have the ing bollox to admit it, tosser .

[Pat H]

alan hodgkinson said:

To cut a long story short the driver was eventually charged with ‘Driving without due care etc’ and was found NOT GUILTY. The verdict itself was not an issue since we bore no malice. However, to my horror, whilst giving his evidence, the driver stated on no less than 4 occasions that Toby had NOT explained the high performance and handling characteristics of TVRs either before or during the test drive. I believe this is absolutely untrue.

A number of you refer to buying cars through Toby and many actually refer to test drives. If Toby arranged a test drive for you, I would ask you please to EMAIL ME DIRECT and tell me everything you remember Toby did or explained during your particular test drive(s) ie what he did and/or explained in the showroom, when introducing you to the car, during the out-drive, when handing over the keys for you to drive and finally during your drive.

Please do not feel obliged but if you are able to provide this information you have my sincere thanks.

Alan

It has already been mentioned that people often have to sign a disclaimer to confirm that they acknowledge the type of car they are about to drive.

Did this fella sign such a document?

If so, can it be produced?

There is a very slim chance that he could be prosecuted for perjury if you could prove that he has lied on oath. But the odds are very much stacked against you.

I defend villains for a living.

Do not hold out much expectation that he will be successfully prosecuted. Even if he is, there will be no punishment that mitigates the loss of your son.

For the rest of his life this man will have the death of your son on his conscience. That is a far greater burden than the criminal justice system is able to foist upon him.

Regards,

Pat.

[tvrchim]

Pat H said:

alan hodgkinson said:

To cut a long story short the driver was eventually charged with ‘Driving without due care etc’ and was found NOT GUILTY. The verdict itself was not an issue since we bore no malice. However, to my horror, whilst giving his evidence, the driver stated on no less than 4 occasions that Toby had NOT explained the high performance and handling characteristics of TVRs either before or during the test drive. I believe this is absolutely untrue.

A number of you refer to buying cars through Toby and many actually refer to test drives. If Toby arranged a test drive for you, I would ask you please to EMAIL ME DIRECT and tell me everything you remember Toby did or explained during your particular test drive(s) ie what he did and/or explained in the showroom, when introducing you to the car, during the out-drive, when handing over the keys for you to drive and finally during your drive.

Please do not feel obliged but if you are able to provide this information you have my sincere thanks.

Alan

It has already been mentioned that people often have to sign a disclaimer to confirm that they acknowledge the type of car they are about to drive.

Did this fella sign such a document?

If so, can it be produced?

There is a very slim chance that he could be prosecuted for perjury if you could prove that he has lied on oath. But the odds are very much stacked against you.

I defend villains for a living.

Do not hold out much expectation that he will be successfully prosecuted. Even if he is, there will be no punishment that mitigates the loss of your son.

For the rest of his life this man will have the death of your son on his conscience. That is a far greater burden than the criminal justice system is able to foist upon him.

Regards,

Pat.

Does not sound like he is very burdened to me.

[Julian64]

Pat H said:

alan hodgkinson said:

To cut a long story short the driver was eventually charged with ‘Driving without due care etc’ and was found NOT GUILTY. The verdict itself was not an issue since we bore no malice. However, to my horror, whilst giving his evidence, the driver stated on no less than 4 occasions that Toby had NOT explained the high performance and handling characteristics of TVRs either before or during the test drive. I believe this is absolutely untrue.

A number of you refer to buying cars through Toby and many actually refer to test drives. If Toby arranged a test drive for you, I would ask you please to EMAIL ME DIRECT and tell me everything you remember Toby did or explained during your particular test drive(s) ie what he did and/or explained in the showroom, when introducing you to the car, during the out-drive, when handing over the keys for you to drive and finally during your drive.

Please do not feel obliged but if you are able to provide this information you have my sincere thanks.

Alan

It has already been mentioned that people often have to sign a disclaimer to confirm that they acknowledge the type of car they are about to drive.

Did this fella sign such a document?

If so, can it be produced?

There is a very slim chance that he could be prosecuted for perjury if you could prove that he has lied on oath. But the odds are very much stacked against you.

I defend villains for a living.

Do not hold out much expectation that he will be successfully prosecuted. Even if he is, there will be no punishment that mitigates the loss of your son.

For the rest of his life this man will have the death of your son on his conscience. That is a far greater burden than the criminal justice system is able to foist upon him.

Regards,

Pat.

I'm afraid for that to make any sense the defendant needs to have placed his own freedom on a priority level below the gravity of what happened. He needs a moral character which prevented him from trying to blame the instructor to have any hope of having a conscience that would bother him.

Obviously unlikely to be the case from whats been said.

Unless these of course are words that have been pushed past his lips despite his protestations by the defending lawyer. At which point of course my original post stands.

[Pat H]

Julian64 said:

Pat H said:

alan hodgkinson said:

To cut a long story short the driver was eventually charged with ‘Driving without due care etc’ and was found NOT GUILTY. The verdict itself was not an issue since we bore no malice. However, to my horror, whilst giving his evidence, the driver stated on no less than 4 occasions that Toby had NOT explained the high performance and handling characteristics of TVRs either before or during the test drive. I believe this is absolutely untrue.

A number of you refer to buying cars through Toby and many actually refer to test drives. If Toby arranged a test drive for you, I would ask you please to EMAIL ME DIRECT and tell me everything you remember Toby did or explained during your particular test drive(s) ie what he did and/or explained in the showroom, when introducing you to the car, during the out-drive, when handing over the keys for you to drive and finally during your drive.

Please do not feel obliged but if you are able to provide this information you have my sincere thanks.

Alan

It has already been mentioned that people often have to sign a disclaimer to confirm that they acknowledge the type of car they are about to drive.

Did this fella sign such a document?

If so, can it be produced?

There is a very slim chance that he could be prosecuted for perjury if you could prove that he has lied on oath. But the odds are very much stacked against you.

I defend villains for a living.

Do not hold out much expectation that he will be successfully prosecuted. Even if he is, there will be no punishment that mitigates the loss of your son.



Regards,

Pat.

I'm afraid for that to make any sense the defendant needs to have placed his own freedom on a priority level below the gravity of what happened. He needs a moral character which prevented him from trying to blame the instructor to have any hope of having a conscience that would bother him.

Obviously unlikely to be the case from whats been said.

Unless these of course are words that have been pushed past his lips despite his protestations by the defending lawyer. At which point of course my original post stands.

His freedom was never even on the line.

It seems that he was only being prosecuted for careless driving, which is not imprisonable.

The only peril that could befall him was between three and nine points or a discretionary disqualification.

If your contention is correct, then he measures the gravity of what happened even below the risk of points on his licence.

For the rest of his life this man will carry the consequence of his actions. That remains a far greater burden than the criminal justice system had at its disposal, as he was not even facing an imprisonable offence.

If he has lied on oath, then he could now face prosecution for perjury, but only if there is plenty of evidence that he has deliberately lied when giving evidence. Were he to be convicted of perjury, then he could face a large helping of porridge.

[jagdpanther]

This must have happened before I joined, but partially reading through this thread was enough to make me see what a good fella Toby was

I can do nothing more than echo the sentiments of previous comments

[Julian64]

Pat H said:

Julian64 said:

Pat H said:

alan hodgkinson said:

To cut a long story short the driver was eventually charged with ‘Driving without due care etc’ and was found NOT GUILTY. The verdict itself was not an issue since we bore no malice. However, to my horror, whilst giving his evidence, the driver stated on no less than 4 occasions that Toby had NOT explained the high performance and handling characteristics of TVRs either before or during the test drive. I believe this is absolutely untrue.

A number of you refer to buying cars through Toby and many actually refer to test drives. If Toby arranged a test drive for you, I would ask you please to EMAIL ME DIRECT and tell me everything you remember Toby did or explained during your particular test drive(s) ie what he did and/or explained in the showroom, when introducing you to the car, during the out-drive, when handing over the keys for you to drive and finally during your drive.

Please do not feel obliged but if you are able to provide this information you have my sincere thanks.

Alan

It has already been mentioned that people often have to sign a disclaimer to confirm that they acknowledge the type of car they are about to drive.

Did this fella sign such a document?

If so, can it be produced?

There is a very slim chance that he could be prosecuted for perjury if you could prove that he has lied on oath. But the odds are very much stacked against you.

I defend villains for a living.

Do not hold out much expectation that he will be successfully prosecuted. Even if he is, there will be no punishment that mitigates the loss of your son.



Regards,

Pat.

I'm afraid for that to make any sense the defendant needs to have placed his own freedom on a priority level below the gravity of what happened. He needs a moral character which prevented him from trying to blame the instructor to have any hope of having a conscience that would bother him.

Obviously unlikely to be the case from whats been said.

Unless these of course are words that have been pushed past his lips despite his protestations by the defending lawyer. At which point of course my original post stands.

His freedom was never even on the line.

It seems that he was only being prosecuted for careless driving, which is not imprisonable.

The only peril that could befall him was between three and nine points or a discretionary disqualification.

If your contention is correct, then he measures the gravity of what happened even below the risk of points on his licence.

For the rest of his life this man will carry the consequence of his actions. That remains a far greater burden than the criminal justice system had at its disposal, as he was not even facing an imprisonable offence.

If he has lied on oath, then he could now face prosecution for perjury, but only if there is plenty of evidence that he has deliberately lied when giving evidence. Were he to be convicted of perjury, then he could face a large helping of porridge.

At the risk of sounded conceited, and when it comes to human nature, I am rarely surprised. But I hope in that situation I would have willingly given the nine points, and probably more not to have to stand up and annoy the relatives of the deceased.

In my opinion, that probably deserves more condemnation than trying to mitigate his position even with perjury.

Thought I might join you this time.

[Pat H]

Julian64 said:

Thought I might join you this time.

It's a bit early in the day, but why the Hell not?

[Davel]

Never met the guy and not yet owned a TVR but, reading this thread and especially Chrissie's comments, really tugs at the heart strings.

How a driver can cause such a tragic accident and then worm their way out of taking responsibility really is sickening beyond belief.

[cossiemetro]

very tragic and sad news but what is going on in this country poor toby can't defend himself against this w@@ker but worse than that this country's law system always seems to defend the lying thieving SCUM and never the tax paying law abiding citizens,
even if this t@sser was convicted what would he get NOTHING compared to losing a loved one
lets hope people can clear the slur that this t@sser has caused LET THERE BE JUSTICE

[DJC]

There are some sentiments being echoed here that sit very uneasily with me. For once I am going to side with a lawyer and agree with Pat. A conscience at war with oneself is a terrible burden to bear, but one that must be bourn. Just as you now decry this gentleman for castigating Tony when he was not there to defend himself, so you now castigate this gentleman when he is not here to defend himself against you, nor do you know anything of his mental state.

An accident happened. A young man died. A man used the full recourse of the law to protect himself from prosecution. The law is often out of kilter with social justice, however a conscience is surprisingly often very much in tune with social justice. It doesnt matter if Toby warned everybody about the car on the previous 99 test drives, there is no proof that he did so on the 100th. If the gentleman in question signed a form saying he was aware of the nature of the car, that is a different question and the issue is not relevent to the questioning of Toby's actions. On the basis that there is no proof that Toby *did* warn the gentleman regarding the car and its performance, then by default the benefit of the doubt must lie with the gentleman (esp as the law states are you innocent of the alleged crime until prooven guilty) as it cannot be prooved that Toby warned him. Contrary to high running emotions this does not reflect badly on Toby. If he did make those warnings then the only person it impacts is upon the gentleman's own conscience that he lied, those who knew Toby well enough should be confident enough about him to know he did his job well. If he did not make any warnings then, simple Toby is no more guilty of something than the gentleman who was driving the car, namely he made a mistake. Not an intentional one, not a malicious one, but purely a mistake. We all make them and invaribaly we make them everyday. It in no way ultimately alleviates the blame from the driver, individuals must take responsibility for their actions.

A little more perspective and less invective is needed please if you are not to denigrate either the memory of Toby or wrongfully condemn another man beyond what he must endure himself.

[900T-R]

Sorry, but quite aside from the law there is also the matter of personal responsibility and integrity. A man died at the hands of this gentleman, and he tries to shift the responsibility that was his - and onlyhis. It's not like anyone that wanders into a TVR showroom would mistake a 350 bhp, lightweight sports car with no driving aids whatsoever for a 1.0 Micra, is there?

[alan hodgkinson]

I don't know how to bring up the specific contribution which I am replying to (in a box) but it is DJC above.

DJC is correct and I would not wish for anyone to make allegations yet alone without knowing all the facts. Suffice to say, if I had any doubt that Toby had not done what I expected him to do before that test drive, I would not be exchanging views with you now.

There is absolute proof, as far as my non legal experience goes, and my original Q was to get further evidence to support and validate this proof. Any advice from those with a legal background would be very welcome.

Thank you again to everyone for your kind sentiments and especially to those responding directly to my request. I have received some direct responses but I have just found that my P'heads email had been 'blocked' for some reason. It's now clear again.

Alan

[Pat H]

alan hodgkinson said:

There is absolute proof, as far as my non legal experience goes, and my original Q was to get further evidence to support and validate this proof. Any advice from those with a legal background would be very welcome.

The defendant was acquitted of careless driving.

It is extraordinarily unlikely that this case would be re-opened.

The recently defunct doctrine of autrefois acquit never applied to the magistrates' courts, but I have been hacking around the courts for the last dozen or so years and I have never seen the CPS have another go at the same offence following an acquittal.

In fact, was the recent Damilola Taylor case not the first time that someone has been prosecuted twice for the same offence, following an earlier acquittal?

If the defendant lied on oath, then he could be prosecuted for perjury.

There would need to be some pretty compelling evidence for the CPS to consider such a prosecution. A signed document that contradicted his evidence in court would be the best. In the alternative, was there a witness to such a conversation? Perhaps someone else at the dealership heard something.

The burden is with the prosecution to satisfy a jury so that it is sure that the defendant lied on oath. This is a pretty difficult burden to discharge, as any reasonable doubt would result in the prosecution failing. DJC summarised the position pretty well and the odds are heavily stacked against a successful prosecution.

You mention that you have absolute proof. Feel free to send me an e-mail via my profile if you want me to look at it. It is probably inappropriate to start discussing such evidence in public, especially if you are thinking of making a specific complaint of criminality against an individual.

In any event, publically to accuse someone of perjury may well be libellous and no one wants to attract the attentions of some blood sucking legal type.....

[Redtuscan]

How can you prove that a person perjured themselves when there is no direct evidence to show that Toby told this man about the handling characteristics of the car?

There is no jury to convince. This was a magistrates court trial for careless driving.

[alan hodgkinson]

Re my earlier comment that my email was blocked, it was at the P'heads end and prevented me sending or receiving via the forum. It has now been reset and is clear .

Before the 'blockage' I received emails from R&J, Gimlet, Nigel Lewis, Hobo, Bennett24 and Keppy. Emails from Sidecar Pilot and Billy Bushfire did not get through and they have re-sent their emails.

If there is anyone else who thinks they have responded but are not included in the above, I would appreciate you re-sending.

Your comments confirm what Sue and I know and believe about Toby. He did do his job that day and I believe I have the evidence to prove it. There is no appeal process open to me but I may decide to take some action myself and your comments will provide support for the evidence I have.

Alan

[Hobo]

Out of pure chance yesterday, trying to get to 'Hamilton' in Leicestershire, I found myself missing a junction off the A1 & going through Melton Mowbrey where I drove past the old TMS TVR site, which got me thinking back to this accident, and Toby himself.

May seem odd, taking into account the years which have passed, but felt weird as it was Toby who sold me the only TVR I owned, a bright red T350C which was there demonstrator at the time.

Hope the family has managed to come to terms with what happened on the 2nd April 2005 (which by coincidence is the birthday of my own son, albeit 2nd April 2007).

[so called]

I joined PH in 2006 and so wasn't aware of this tragic story.
I never knew Toby. I don't know the driver or how responsible he was for the accident.
Reading the comments if some of Toby's friends, acquaintances and the upset angry reminded me of one of my brothers.
He so hated a guy that I actually worked with. Accused him of being a murdering piece of worthless trash as he had killed my brothers mate. He crashed while DUI.
I remember listening to this guy at work squirming over how he could get off a prison sentence as he had done the same again, driving DUI and a passenger died.
He got off again ???
Never heard in his voice any recognition of the lives he had taken.

[Backseatdriver]

We were at Prestige Peformance Cars at Melton today picking up our Griffith after having some work done. As we walked round the corner of the old TMS garage I said wouldn't it be great to see all the TVR flags flying and all the cars on the forecourt. Toby sold us our Tuscan and was a lovely young man. Our Griffith keys are on a TMS keyring that Toby gave me when we bought the Tuscan. We will never forget him.