ABS to become standard?
Discussion
I've been investigating after-market ABS for a Tamora (too late now though, it's already stopped moving), and a one-off is aboput £3000. Given a reduction in unit costs for multiples in the hundreds or thousands, about £1-1.5k should be added to the cost of a TVR. Not bad really (considering that's cheaper than air con or full leather, neither of which will prevent a skid nor possibly save your life)
I have to say that I don't often agree with spnracing, but in this case I'm with him. Everyone seems to trot out the same mantras of:
1) You don't stop quicker with ABS
2) It stops you from thinking and driving at the same time
3) Cadence braking is just as good
4) It's useless in snow
1) - true, but as pointed out, you can steer, AND shit yourself, at the same time!!
2) - There is an assumption that abs causes all drivers to become careless thoughtless numpties. Why is this so?
3) - PLEASE!!!! Can you cycle your foot 20 times per second, and adjust your pedal pressure to relieve only the brake on the skidding wheel, whilst simultaneously increasing brake effort on the wheels with grip? I think not...
4) - True, but if you're driving in snow, aren't you going at a speed matching the conditions, when hopefully emergency braking isn't required?
ABS actually is a safety advance, even in the event that idiot drivers interpret that as being a licence to go faster than conditions would suggest. That is the fault of the driver, NOT ABS, isn't it? I would hope that folks on here are better, more intelligent drivers than that, and therefore would understand the limitations of ABS and drive accordingly.
Like all other things, including the gas pedal, steering wheel, lights, indicators, seat belts etc., car components are inanimate reactive systems which demand input from the driver to make them function. So as usual, it's the nut behind the steering wheel that usually causes the problem.
>> Edited by nubbin on Wednesday 3rd September 22:01
I have to say that I don't often agree with spnracing, but in this case I'm with him. Everyone seems to trot out the same mantras of:
1) You don't stop quicker with ABS
2) It stops you from thinking and driving at the same time
3) Cadence braking is just as good
4) It's useless in snow
1) - true, but as pointed out, you can steer, AND shit yourself, at the same time!!
2) - There is an assumption that abs causes all drivers to become careless thoughtless numpties. Why is this so?
3) - PLEASE!!!! Can you cycle your foot 20 times per second, and adjust your pedal pressure to relieve only the brake on the skidding wheel, whilst simultaneously increasing brake effort on the wheels with grip? I think not...
4) - True, but if you're driving in snow, aren't you going at a speed matching the conditions, when hopefully emergency braking isn't required?
ABS actually is a safety advance, even in the event that idiot drivers interpret that as being a licence to go faster than conditions would suggest. That is the fault of the driver, NOT ABS, isn't it? I would hope that folks on here are better, more intelligent drivers than that, and therefore would understand the limitations of ABS and drive accordingly.
Like all other things, including the gas pedal, steering wheel, lights, indicators, seat belts etc., car components are inanimate reactive systems which demand input from the driver to make them function. So as usual, it's the nut behind the steering wheel that usually causes the problem.
>> Edited by nubbin on Wednesday 3rd September 22:01
Well put Nubbin. The mentality of some posters on this BB astounds me - I get down on my knees to the brilliant drivers you think you are - there is nothing wrong with ABS and you're better with than without it.
5ltr - (and you're an observer for IAM - is this what they preach?)
"NO car will stop quicker or safer with abs".
Foot hard on brake, how are you going to steer around that child that runs out in front of you?
"NO lifes have been saved by an airbag whilst wearing a seatbelt."
How you know that a seat belt hasn't failed and the airbag saved the driverpassenger? I'd rather have a backup device. Furthermore, there are still drivers (senseless in my opinion) that don't use seatbelts that have probably been saved by an airbag. And furtherstill, I wouldn't be surprised if there are instances of people being trapped in a car by their seatbelt only to burn in a fire - so should we get rid of seatbelts as well??
Rant over. Flame me if you will!
>> Edited by macca on Wednesday 3rd September 22:29
5ltr - (and you're an observer for IAM - is this what they preach?)
"NO car will stop quicker or safer with abs".
Foot hard on brake, how are you going to steer around that child that runs out in front of you?
"NO lifes have been saved by an airbag whilst wearing a seatbelt."
How you know that a seat belt hasn't failed and the airbag saved the driverpassenger? I'd rather have a backup device. Furthermore, there are still drivers (senseless in my opinion) that don't use seatbelts that have probably been saved by an airbag. And furtherstill, I wouldn't be surprised if there are instances of people being trapped in a car by their seatbelt only to burn in a fire - so should we get rid of seatbelts as well??
Rant over. Flame me if you will!
>> Edited by macca on Wednesday 3rd September 22:29
macca said:
there is nothing wrong with ABS and you're better with than without it.
5ltr - (a you're an observer for IAM - is this what they preach?)
"NO car will stop quicker or safer with abs".
Foot hard on brake, how are you going to steer around that child that runs out in front of you?
"NO lifes have been saved by an airbag whilst wearing a seatbelt."
How you know that a seat belt hasn't failed and the airbag saved the driverpassenger? I'd rather have a backup device. Furthermore, there are still drivers (senseless in my opinion) that don't use seatbelts that have probably been saved by an airbag. And furtherstill, I wouldn't be surprised if there are instances of people being trapped in a car by their seatbelt only to burn in a fire - so should we get rid of seatbelts as well??
We are ALL still entitled to our own opinions, aren't we ? (I don't think we've lost that yet).
So to put the record straight :
I was merely quoting stated facts regarding the cars themselves - with my own preferrence at the end. We could say what if ... for a very long time.
I don't see how the IAM comes into that + for the record my cheap runabout has abs (fuse pulled) I've had a car with airbag - but for those who have never been trained in skid prevention/control it might be better MOST of the time to have abs.
The concept of airbags with no seatbelts could be an interesting one for discussion.
Did I say pulled - Oh silly me I meant it's fallen out without my knowledge
>> Edited by 5ltr-chim on Thursday 4th September 16:49
macca said:
there is nothing wrong with ABS and you're better with than without it.
You're making this as a blanket statement? Doesn't it depend on the car and the braking system?
I have a Jaguar XJR and I'll be the first to admit that this car is probably a bit safer with ABS given the weight of the car and the fact that it is relatively easy to lock up the brakes at speed.
However, saying that a TVR (e.g. Tuscan) would be safer with ABS than without is to forget that the car was specifically designed to brake effectiively *without* ABS. Have you ever tried an emergency stop in a Tuscan? I have and I'll say that I don't see how ABS could possibly improve it.
According to recent tests in Autocar, a Tuscan will brake from 100mph to a dead stop in a fraction over 4 seconds. Far as I'm concerned, any car that can do that doesn't have a thing wrong with its brakes.
macca said:
Foot hard on brake, how are you going to steer around that child that runs out in front of you?
How will ABS help you to do that?
macca said:
How you know that a seat belt hasn't failed and the airbag saved the driverpassenger? I'd rather have a backup device. Furthermore, there are still drivers (senseless in my opinion) that don't use seatbelts that have probably been saved by an airbag. And furtherstill, I wouldn't be surprised if there are instances of people being trapped in a car by their seatbelt only to burn in a fire - so should we get rid of seatbelts as well??
If someone doesn't want to wear their seat belt, that is their choice. None of my business even if it costs them their life. What I object to is the bureaucrat who thinks that just because someone else chooses not to wear a seatbelt, I have to have airbags in my car that *will* kill any child or short adult who rides passenger with me by snapping their necks like twigs if they deploy.
If a seatbelt malfunctions and traps a passenger in a car then it is just that: a malfunction. Airbags have killed by working exactly according to their design.
Also, when I lived in Southern California, driver-side airbags were a favorite target for thieves. They are easier to steal that car radios and worth more on the black market.
Why do you all seem to consider driver aids as being for numpties and also being not as good as the human equivalent.
Take these for example:
Power Steering - not strong enough in the upper body to turn the wheel without it?
LSD - a mechanical form of traction control
Synchromesh gearbox - not able to double-de-clutch?
The latest driver aids (ABS, TC, ESP etc) just take some of the effort out of driving so that you can concentrate more on driving fast and the road ahead.
If you're an excellent driver then you don't need these. But not everyone is as skilled, so they can benefit from the systems.
And ABS is the quickest way to stop a car, though a human in theory could do it in the same distance, but not less.
Take these for example:
Power Steering - not strong enough in the upper body to turn the wheel without it?
LSD - a mechanical form of traction control
Synchromesh gearbox - not able to double-de-clutch?
The latest driver aids (ABS, TC, ESP etc) just take some of the effort out of driving so that you can concentrate more on driving fast and the road ahead.
If you're an excellent driver then you don't need these. But not everyone is as skilled, so they can benefit from the systems.
And ABS is the quickest way to stop a car, though a human in theory could do it in the same distance, but not less.
nubbin said:
3) Cadence braking is just as good
3) - PLEASE!!!! Can you cycle your foot 20 times per second, and adjust your pedal pressure to relieve only the brake on the skidding wheel, whilst simultaneously increasing brake effort on the wheels with grip? I think not...
More to the point - would anyone remember to do this after three hours on the M40 when something suddenly happens in front of you? I still lock the wheels on the Golf sometimes in the heat of a race and thats when I'm concentrating 100%. Maybe all these guys are just way better drivers than me?
My viewpoint is that some of the statements on this thread are plain stupid.
ABS is clearly only a benefit when the braking forces on a wheel exceed the tyres grip. On a lightweight sports car with big tyres that doesn't happen very often, so ABS is not as important (but it would still be a massive help in wet, slippy conditions).
But most modern cars are heavy and have less grip - so ABS is totally invaluable.
What we have here is loads of guys driving lightweight sports cars with plenty of grip saying that ABS is not only of no benefit, it actually makes drivers more dangerous?
Welcome to the 21st century.
spnracing said:
Getting back to the title of the thread - if the EU are considering making ABS mandatory in all new cars I think its a good thing. If that then brings small companies like TVR in line then I'd be more inclined to consider another one sometime in the future.
For some it might be good news, but what about the others like Caterham, Westfield and the other small volume manufacturers? How do they fit ABS then?
As for some of the other comments on ABS.... a top quality ABS system is a good aid to braking on fast, heavy cars as already commented. But on light sports cars I dont really see the need - dont get me wrong, if the car had it fitted as standard I wouldnt care, but I have the fortune of having Wilwood brakes fitted to my car and I defy anyone this side of an M3 or Porsche to outbrake me.... I cannot under almost all circumstances lock the wheels - not cos I aint trying hard enough, but simply because they are damn fine brakes with plenty of progression and are just SO effective....
Oh, and as for the comment about everyone with a TVR is "just such a good driver"... well, think about it for a minute. Driving a TVR is not a mundane experience and you really need to know what / how / when to drive it. Not saying that all TVR drivers are excellent, but the fact that they are aware of the cars performance and hence drive them accordingly is a testement to the fact that in general they arent that crashed (except Tuscans it seems
).... Manufacturers such as BMW, Porsche and Merc need to fit ABS as they have a wider appeal and, lets face it, are bought by numpties who get them for the image..... if anything the manufacturers need to fit safety devices for their own protection (US market anyone?).
Personally I dont hear of anyone that walks into a TVR dealer and says "I want that Tuscan / Tamora / T350" and the dealer says "it hasnt got ABS" so the buyer walks away.... it doesnt happen and we are all pretty much aware of what the cars are capable of and what the limitations are....
So why are most TVR's insurance group 20 then? I've seen plenty of stuffed TVR's....
I'd agree that its the more discerning motorist that tends to go for one - but don't agree that even they wouldn't be better off having ABS in the background just in case. Especially if it was switchable for track days.
TVR's don't have lightweight Wilwood 4 pots as standard - do they?
I'd agree that its the more discerning motorist that tends to go for one - but don't agree that even they wouldn't be better off having ABS in the background just in case. Especially if it was switchable for track days.
TVR's don't have lightweight Wilwood 4 pots as standard - do they?
spnracing said:
So why are most TVR's insurance group 20 then? I've seen plenty of stuffed TVR's....
Accidents happen - some self-induced, some not... but all TVR's are group 20 due to a number of factors:
1) Performance
2) Availability of spares and parts
3) Costs of repairs
4) Target for theft and vandalism
5) Likelyhood of accident
They are not group 20 cos people stuff them all of the time. Its a risk game and lets be honest here the Audi A8 is group 20. A Golf GTI 16v is 16 and a Fiat Cinq is around 3-4.... the grouping scheme is a farce at best...
spnracing said:
I'd agree that its the more discerning motorist that tends to go for one - but don't agree that even they wouldn't be better off having ABS in the background just in case. Especially if it was switchable for track days.
That would be a good idea, but while there is no pressure to do so, TVR wont fit them as standard. There is little customer demand and as already mentioned, you can retro fit for £3K anyway....
Would a TVR be better with ABS? Does it make the driving experience more fun? Does it add to the unique looks, performance and appeal of a TVR? Not quite - its a feature and certainly not a benefit....
spnracing said:
TVR's don't have lightweight Wilwood 4 pots as standard - do they?
No, thats why I said that I was fortunate enough to have them... but my point was that a well set-up brake system is just as good some poxy old ABS system anyday.... and Wilwoods fitted to your car are much less than retro-fitting ABS.... and they do add a difference as braking performance is improved and you dont get any fase.... does ABS fix that?
plotloss said:
5ltr-chim said:
for the record my cheap runabout has abs (fuse pulled)
You are prepared to pay the £1M damages when your insurers refuse to pay, aren't you?
Alternatively putting the fuse back in before the assessors arrive...
Rising from your bed in the ortho ward to do so?
5ltr.
Your opinion is that you don't want either abs or airbag and, quite rightly, you are entitled to your own opinion - I would never challenge that.
The rest of your post is a statement which is inacurate. You say "NO car will stop quicker or safer with abs" - I disagree - (safer) when wheels are locked if you can steer then this must be safer than not being able to steer. (quicker) Tyres will melt if friction from a locked wheel is sustained long enough (there was a post a few years ago from someone who actually tested this with the conclusion that meltdown doesn't take that long); how quick can you stop with a melting tyre?
Is the point about snow really that significant - it snows for about 2 weeks in this country and there are 52 weeks in a year. I also wonder if you really would get down to the 'black stuff' with a sheet of ice under the snow.
Jon,
Tell me you are genuinely asking how abs will allow you to steer and not being sarcastic.
Your opinion is that you don't want either abs or airbag and, quite rightly, you are entitled to your own opinion - I would never challenge that.
The rest of your post is a statement which is inacurate. You say "NO car will stop quicker or safer with abs" - I disagree - (safer) when wheels are locked if you can steer then this must be safer than not being able to steer. (quicker) Tyres will melt if friction from a locked wheel is sustained long enough (there was a post a few years ago from someone who actually tested this with the conclusion that meltdown doesn't take that long); how quick can you stop with a melting tyre?
Is the point about snow really that significant - it snows for about 2 weeks in this country and there are 52 weeks in a year. I also wonder if you really would get down to the 'black stuff' with a sheet of ice under the snow.
jon gwynne said:
Foot hard on brake, how are you going to steer around that child that runs out in front of you?
How will ABS help you to do that?
Jon,
Tell me you are genuinely asking how abs will allow you to steer and not being sarcastic.
spn, the "numpties" do know what ABS, airbags and 4WD are because they have been taught by the press and government over the last 15 or so years that they make their cars safer.
To explain part of the reason for my theory I will repeat a story I have posted on here before. I was at a party and a young lady was explaining how she had aquaplanned on the motorway she then went onto say "I don't know how it happened - my car is four wheel drive". It is this type of attitude that prevails in the land of "numpty" drivers. The "I have ABS so I can understand how I couldn't stop in time". Or the "I have an airbag which will stop me getting hurt".
I have driven numerous cars with ABS and on the good systems it is switchable for snow and really do work quite well only cutting in during emergency braking and being very unintrusive and doing the minimum neccessary to stop the wheels locking (and yes I do test them on purpose before anyone queries how I drive
). The bad ones cut in at the slightest hint of pressure on the brake pedal, are very intrusive and are quite simply a waste of money.
You will note that I have not said at any point that ABS is, in itself, a bad thing. Just that the attitude it has brought to drivers is a bad thing.
I have one car with and airbag and one car without. It makes no difference to me whether it is there or not. I still drive with the same attitude of not wanting to test the safety of the vehicle. At the end of the day the current new car crash tests show that it really isn't safe to crash a car at over 30mph (total accident speed) with or without any safety aids.
All TVR's are group 20 just like all Jaguars are or Ferraris. They are expensive to buy (relative to other cars), expensive to repair and have huge performance. The fact the they are group 20 does not actually make the cost of insurance that high - especially compared to other group 20 vehicles. It is just the percieved risk by the insurance companies of those types of vehicles and allows them to restrict who they insure (by cost or not covering high group vehicles).
To explain part of the reason for my theory I will repeat a story I have posted on here before. I was at a party and a young lady was explaining how she had aquaplanned on the motorway she then went onto say "I don't know how it happened - my car is four wheel drive". It is this type of attitude that prevails in the land of "numpty" drivers. The "I have ABS so I can understand how I couldn't stop in time". Or the "I have an airbag which will stop me getting hurt".
I have driven numerous cars with ABS and on the good systems it is switchable for snow and really do work quite well only cutting in during emergency braking and being very unintrusive and doing the minimum neccessary to stop the wheels locking (and yes I do test them on purpose before anyone queries how I drive
). The bad ones cut in at the slightest hint of pressure on the brake pedal, are very intrusive and are quite simply a waste of money. You will note that I have not said at any point that ABS is, in itself, a bad thing. Just that the attitude it has brought to drivers is a bad thing.
I have one car with and airbag and one car without. It makes no difference to me whether it is there or not. I still drive with the same attitude of not wanting to test the safety of the vehicle. At the end of the day the current new car crash tests show that it really isn't safe to crash a car at over 30mph (total accident speed) with or without any safety aids.
All TVR's are group 20 just like all Jaguars are or Ferraris. They are expensive to buy (relative to other cars), expensive to repair and have huge performance. The fact the they are group 20 does not actually make the cost of insurance that high - especially compared to other group 20 vehicles. It is just the percieved risk by the insurance companies of those types of vehicles and allows them to restrict who they insure (by cost or not covering high group vehicles).
5ltr-chim said:
ABS.
____
NO car will stop quicker or safer with abs
True but most drivers stop quicker and safer with abs most of the time. As most drivers do not know how to brake.
Mark
PS TVR's and any true divers cars should not be fitted with abs or if fitted allowed to be turned off
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