ABS to become standard?
Discussion
tvrmark said:
ABS.
____
NO car will stop quicker or safer with abs
True but most drivers stop quicker and safer with abs most of the time. As most drivers do not know how to brake.
Mark
PS TVR's and any true divers cars should not be fitted with abs or if fitted allowed to be turned off
Once you get into providing the ability to switch safety critical items off in cars, the risk of product liabilty vastly increases (especially in the states). Why the hell would you want to switch it off ?? Can anyone honestly say, that in a panic situation, they could brake in such a manner to safely control their car to avoid an accident, as effectively as an electro/mechanical device ?? I think not. Fitting ABS to a TVR would surely be a benefit, it wouldn't effect the car's braking ability, you'd still be able to brake so hard you'd have a nice red fricton burn on your neck from the seat belt and your eye balls would touch the windscreen but wouldn't it be better to know in the back of your mind, that should that one situation arrise that you just couldn't predict,or avoid, the ABS system would get you home safely ?? I agree with the comments that have been said earlier, that the main problem with ABS is peoples lack of tuition in how to use it correctly, which is probably why this thread has generated so much discussion.
jsr said:
What i find quite sad is all the TVR drivers who seem to tarnish all other motorists who dont own a TVR as a numpty.
If that kind of attitude comes with the car then i may decide not to buy a Griff 500 in the near future and opt for a Evo VIII
Couldn't agree more.
The entire Pistonheads 'numpty' attitude is condescending, childish and highly annoying to anyone who wants to enjoy a performance car but also treats other road users respectfully.
I can only think that a casual observer of the gassing section must think all TVR drivers are complete t****ers, very sad.
jsr said:
What i find quite sad is all the TVR drivers who seem to tarnish all other motorists who dont own a TVR as a numpty.
If that kind of attitude comes with the car then i may decide not to buy a Griff 500 in the near future and opt for a Evo VIII
jsr
Please do not tar us all with the same brush! I'm as big a numpty as the next man
I would have thought an EVO VIII a little different to a Griff, could you have both?
D.
wixer said:
Why the hell would you want to switch it off ?? Can anyone honestly say, that in a panic situation, they could brake in such a manner to safely control their car to avoid an accident, as effectively as an electro/mechanical device ?? I think not.
IMO a good ABS system does more good than harm in normal driving. But ABS does take control away from the driver and this limits your options when things do go pear-shaped. Rear wheel drive cars are prone to spin, and neither traction control nor ABS prevent this. If the car starts to spin, you have two options. Your best bet by far is to lock all four wheels and come to an ungracefull stop in a straight line. I have had to do this a couple of times sprinting and been able to avoid potentially very heavy impacts as a result. Of course if you have ABS this is no longer an option.
Second choice, if you're feeling brave and are a sufficiently skilled driver and react quickly enough and have enough clear space, is to try to catch the slide and the tank slapper that is likely to follow it. If you go for the second option and don't make it, you'll cover a lot of ground before you hit, you won't have lost much speed (the grip has been used to throw you sideways rather than slow you down) so you'll hit hard, and you'll probably be rotating so whatever you hit will have a go at all four corners. It is very easy to write the car off doing this.
Not entirely against ABS and I wouldn't at all mind having it on the car for normal road use, but there are times when you are most definitely better off without it. As far as I'm concerned the best solution is for everyone else to have ABS and all that other stuff so they don't smash into me, meanwhile I trust myself to stay in control the old fashioned way thank you very much!
Well excuse me. As far as I was aware the "numpty" term is a slightly humorous one that is in generic pistonheads usage and is used to denote those drivers that exhibit very poor (or atleast below average) driving standards. Do you want me to write "those driver with poor or below average driving skills" everytime I want to talk about them. Well sorry but I will continue to talk about numpties pursuing numpty behaviour in a numpty fashion because they are NUMPTIES.
I am not talking about non-TVR owners or even non-pistonheaders. I am talking about people who tailgate, drive at 60 in a 30, don't indicate, pull out without looking and all the other behaviours of POOR drivers. It is also the attitude of mind I descibed in my last post.
If you are so far up your own a**e that you cannot accept these slightly humorous nicknames (such as numpty, lentilist etc) then fine but I am going to continue using them whatever you think or write here. I REFUSE to have a sense of humour bypass.
is now free
I am not talking about non-TVR owners or even non-pistonheaders. I am talking about people who tailgate, drive at 60 in a 30, don't indicate, pull out without looking and all the other behaviours of POOR drivers. It is also the attitude of mind I descibed in my last post.
If you are so far up your own a**e that you cannot accept these slightly humorous nicknames (such as numpty, lentilist etc) then fine but I am going to continue using them whatever you think or write here. I REFUSE to have a sense of humour bypass.
is now free icamm:
also people who drive at 50mph in middle lane of motorway and people who have their mobile phone glued to the ear whilst driving. Oh, an women who drive those big 4x4's and MPV's purely for the school run.
Didn't mean to offend anyone by my comment about the use of 'numpty', or tar everyone with the same brush, but to other visitors unfamiliar with the PH forums, some of the posts could sound a little offensive.
davidd:
unfortunatley cant afford both! Since both cars are completely different - other than being immensely quick - it makes comparing them difficult. I will porbably go for the Griffith (cos of the V8), but i sometimes get tempted by 'the darkside' (it's cornering ability with that Super Active Yaw Control)
If only i could have a Griffith 500 with the drivetrain and electronic wizardry of the Evo VIII - including the ABS (just to tie this post back in with the topic!)
also people who drive at 50mph in middle lane of motorway and people who have their mobile phone glued to the ear whilst driving. Oh, an women who drive those big 4x4's and MPV's purely for the school run.
Didn't mean to offend anyone by my comment about the use of 'numpty', or tar everyone with the same brush, but to other visitors unfamiliar with the PH forums, some of the posts could sound a little offensive.
davidd:
unfortunatley cant afford both! Since both cars are completely different - other than being immensely quick - it makes comparing them difficult. I will porbably go for the Griffith (cos of the V8), but i sometimes get tempted by 'the darkside' (it's cornering ability with that Super Active Yaw Control)
If only i could have a Griffith 500 with the drivetrain and electronic wizardry of the Evo VIII - including the ABS (just to tie this post back in with the topic!)
You know all this stuff about better braking with ABS is a bit misleading. A few years ago, I was fortunate enough to do a race driving school course at the Jim Russell school at Silverstone (now moved to California - lucky sod).
Anyway, at the time we used Pug 306 GTI6's which are cracking motors. They came fitted with ABS and the first part of the course was braking.... we learned effective braking and how to bring the speed down with control - with ABS enabled.... we then went on to insert a small piece of metal to disable the ABS and do it all again....
At first we all locked up badly and then steadily we learned to not lock-up and use the brakes and tyres effectively. We were then tasked with bringing our braking distance down - getting shorter and shorter.... in fact we ALL managed to get the braking distance to a significantly shorter than we attained with ABS... not by a couple of feet, but much more than that (we were braking from 60MPH so not slow speeds here)..
Then we then went on to do the rest of the course with the ABS disabled - hence my appreciation that ABS is good and for the vast majority of drivers its never used.... but having been there and had the difference directly illustrated, I can confidently say that braking without ABS is better and you have more control - distances are shorter.
This is a lesson that I have learned and not forgotten - if my money spent on the course has not taught me anything else, it has taught me that ABS is good, but the human brain is better and in a lot of circumstances more effective.... So, the natural assumption of ABS being good and safe and what we all need isnt necessarily the case. But like I said, if my car came with it as standard, I wouldnt really care..... ABS is good, but its not some magic bullet that keeps the car from having accidents....
Anyway, at the time we used Pug 306 GTI6's which are cracking motors. They came fitted with ABS and the first part of the course was braking.... we learned effective braking and how to bring the speed down with control - with ABS enabled.... we then went on to insert a small piece of metal to disable the ABS and do it all again....
At first we all locked up badly and then steadily we learned to not lock-up and use the brakes and tyres effectively. We were then tasked with bringing our braking distance down - getting shorter and shorter.... in fact we ALL managed to get the braking distance to a significantly shorter than we attained with ABS... not by a couple of feet, but much more than that (we were braking from 60MPH so not slow speeds here)..
Then we then went on to do the rest of the course with the ABS disabled - hence my appreciation that ABS is good and for the vast majority of drivers its never used.... but having been there and had the difference directly illustrated, I can confidently say that braking without ABS is better and you have more control - distances are shorter.
This is a lesson that I have learned and not forgotten - if my money spent on the course has not taught me anything else, it has taught me that ABS is good, but the human brain is better and in a lot of circumstances more effective.... So, the natural assumption of ABS being good and safe and what we all need isnt necessarily the case. But like I said, if my car came with it as standard, I wouldnt really care..... ABS is good, but its not some magic bullet that keeps the car from having accidents....
tvrmark said:Such as this?
any true divers cars
pbrettle said:Interesting choice of words
some magic bullet that keeps the car from having accidents
, but I agree with most of the recent points. That is: ABS is good a lot of the time, but bad some of the time (and people are usually able to be better than machines - if suitably trained). But ABS and other driver aids are not what TVRs and similar cars are about. People who drive TVRs are constantly reminded by the car itself that the it can do harm to themselves and other road users. That, and the cost of the cars and insurance, are why you rarely see such motors driven in a recklessly irresponsible fashion (unlike some other more technology-loaded vehicles).So if you attend a full days course at a racing school you can stop quicker without ABS;
In the dry
Concentrating 100%
Having practiced all day
Now back to the M40, pissing rain, four years later, been driving for 3 hours without a break. Something happens right in front of you. No ABS.
You've still got no chance. And thats if you have been on the course in the first place - which 99.99% of the driving population haven't.
And ABS is still detriment to vehicle safetey?
>> Edited by spnracing on Monday 8th September 09:23
In the dry
Concentrating 100%
Having practiced all day
Now back to the M40, pissing rain, four years later, been driving for 3 hours without a break. Something happens right in front of you. No ABS.
You've still got no chance. And thats if you have been on the course in the first place - which 99.99% of the driving population haven't.
And ABS is still detriment to vehicle safetey?
>> Edited by spnracing on Monday 8th September 09:23
Most technology on your road car these days, at some point has been proven on the race track. Active Suspension, Power steering, Traction Control, etc, etc… If it didn’t work or the driver could do a better job, then they wouldn’t have put it on the car in either the first place, or wait for it to be banned (like ABS was). And these are the top drivers in the world, with super human reactions, (better than, I assume anyway, unless we have any F1 stars on here, all of us).
Have you ever braked heavily over a bump in the road, pot hole, drain cover, etc… where it then locks a wheel (just for a moment) – until the brain says release and reapply, the ABS is already working. I know that as mentioned already , in a spin it’s better to lock the wheels and come to a stop, and in the snow it is crap, but for most of the time, it is spot on.
What autocar and the other magazine’s should do is to test their cars in a more real world situation. Try the braking test from 70 on a wet (poorly surfaced road, which has pot holes, drain covers, white lines and over banding on) – like a good majority of our roads. Then lets see if ABS is really better…
I’d have it anytime, and if when buying my last Trev, I could have had an identical car but with ABS for another £500, I’d have paid it every time.
jj
Have you ever braked heavily over a bump in the road, pot hole, drain cover, etc… where it then locks a wheel (just for a moment) – until the brain says release and reapply, the ABS is already working. I know that as mentioned already , in a spin it’s better to lock the wheels and come to a stop, and in the snow it is crap, but for most of the time, it is spot on.
What autocar and the other magazine’s should do is to test their cars in a more real world situation. Try the braking test from 70 on a wet (poorly surfaced road, which has pot holes, drain covers, white lines and over banding on) – like a good majority of our roads. Then lets see if ABS is really better…
I’d have it anytime, and if when buying my last Trev, I could have had an identical car but with ABS for another £500, I’d have paid it every time.
jj
jj. in the situation you have described some of the crappy ABS systems fitted to most cars actually stop the car from slowing down very much at all. They think the wheels are locking up due to heavy braking rather than crap road surface. There has been a number of stories on here of people overshooting junctions because the ABS kicked in on poor surfaces.
Don't forget that F1 teams spend millions per car on the electronics and software to work on almost perfect roads (race tracks are so much better than public roads no matter how bumpy) and tuned for each corner of each curcuit. I don't know of any other formula that has tested ABS (although I am no authority on what has/has not been tested in race series round the world).
Are you suggesting that the electronics in a standard road car bares anything but a passing resemblance to what they put in F1 cars?
SPN, you are correct that for most people, in most circumstance ABS helps BUT it's main benefit is that you can still steer whilst braking because you can't lock up. Not that it stops you faster.
Didn't Mercedes design their braking assistance software because people don't usually brake hard enough in an emergency?
Don't forget that F1 teams spend millions per car on the electronics and software to work on almost perfect roads (race tracks are so much better than public roads no matter how bumpy) and tuned for each corner of each curcuit. I don't know of any other formula that has tested ABS (although I am no authority on what has/has not been tested in race series round the world).
Are you suggesting that the electronics in a standard road car bares anything but a passing resemblance to what they put in F1 cars?
SPN, you are correct that for most people, in most circumstance ABS helps BUT it's main benefit is that you can still steer whilst braking because you can't lock up. Not that it stops you faster.
Didn't Mercedes design their braking assistance software because people don't usually brake hard enough in an emergency?
icamm said:
I don't know of any other formula that has tested ABS.
DTM among others. Fitting ABS is strictly banned in Group One Touring Cars where I race - otherwise we'd all fit it.
icamm said:
SPN, you are correct that for most people, in most circumstance ABS helps BUT it's main benefit is that you can still steer whilst braking because you can't lock up. Not that it stops you faster.
Didn't Mercedes design their braking assistance software because people don't usually brake hard enough in an emergency?
Yes and yes.
It was the "NO car will stop quicker or safer with abs - but the opposite can be true" and "NO lifes have been saved by an airbag whilst wearing a seatbelt" comments that I thought were particularly inaccurate.
icamm said:Oh I know - I used to have a Rover Coupe with was really bad in the wet, as it always thought it was locking the fronts. As a result in the rain it probably didn't stop (in a straight line) as well as another car in an emergency situation. (My old Porker I couldn't hardly get the ABS to cut in - unless really wet). But the time when I'd just taken a slight crest in the road, followed by a sweeping left hander - which was unseen, then oh dear I'm going too fast. I slammed on the brakes, then instinct told me you're going to skid (this was my first car with ABS) - so I lifted, thought I'm not going to make the bend and just planted the middle peddle and got round. I was v.glad of ABS, as without it I would have not made the corner.
jj. in the situation you have described some of the crappy ABS systems fitted to most cars actually stop the car from slowing down very much at all.
icamm said:- agreed it's not the same, but the technology and the know how, will surely find it's way down to the mass production companies...?
Are you suggesting that the electronics in a standard road car bares anything but a passing resemblance to what they put in F1 cars?
jj
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