RE: TVR Confirms 'Vette Power For New Roadster

[DonkeyApple]

TVRMARKUB said:

DonkeyApple said:

TVRMARKUB said:

DonkeyApple said:

JR said:

fatbutt said:

it would be silly to ignore such a market.

What happened last time TVR were there?

You need to make the car American,

fk me,

I rest my case, you're not it sales are you Donk

Like PW said "it saves having to employ marketing men to bullst the public"

I sell British goods to Americans. And rather well. This is how I know what needs to be done.

As for PW being astute to sell for a few million. It was worth a few hundred million some years earlier. He sold because it was dead and he grabbed whatever was left from the table and ran. NS was a mug with due diligence but then there are strong rumours that the data he was given had been seriously manipulated.

What NS did after purchase to redress the problems were very good and sensible descisions, he just didn't have the money and was dealing with a stubborn Northern workforce that needed culling and whipping back into line, although it's easier to shut up shop and re-open elsewhere.

Donk,

I nearly always enjoy your posts and some have me but the above is just a load of bks apart from the NS was a mug statement.

What the lad(NS) had was no business sense, no idea what his market was, and then he encircled himself with yes men who were out just for themselves.

Seriously, boil down the facts and PW's time was over. He hit upon the perfect formula in the early 90s and took TVR to heights it had never seen or even dreamt of. But when the world and the markets changed he got it horribly wrong.

At the end TVR was massively over staffed, was suffering from the results of zero steamlining for efficiencies in manufacture, unable to compete in a world where most people wanted a sports car plus 21st century luxuries, every major builder was producing a soft top on better margins. (another way to look at it was that TVR often won through by being cheaper and more powerful and by the end they weren't cheaper and 400bhp is really about the top, it had run out of ammunition to compete).

PW was obsessed with keeping everything British. Now, that is very much one of the things we all loved about the company but in the changing world of the 21st century it was also one of the massive problems.

When NS came along PW leapt at the opportunity. He was old, tired and couldn't face the responsibility of laying off staff that he had a lot of time for. Passing the buck to a mug kid from Russia and getting £14M out of something that had once been rumoured to have been approached by Ford with a ten fold tag was a bit of a golden opportunity.

PW failed to move forward with the market and the world.

NS conversely was a mug to buy, whereas PW had seen the real value when he bought. But NS while young and naive (see, I've spent it right this time;)) did bring in some advisors who knew how to turn it around. I'm not talking about the Oxleys, but people with experience and he did listen to them. He did halt production while they tries to sort out reliability. They knew that the brand had been badly damaged by the S6 and this needed to be redressed, it was the right thing to do.

If you read the posts in the s6 related forums everyone today is stating that the later cars were better built and the engines more reliable. What they actually mean is that the NS cars are better. They will never say this and be shocked if you point it out but the fact is that due to NS quality control the product was better.

What NS could never do anything about and was doomed to fail on was the work force who were very much like PW and his stubborn Northern views and also similar views to many of the owners that it was unnaceptable for a Russian kid to own the company. He didn't stand a chance. Since the dawn of time only Thatcher has succeeded against a Northern revolt and that is very much up for debate.

The company was kapput when PW bailed. NS was naive, misled etc to buy but the fact remains that the actions NS took to try and turn it around were the correct ones. There just was not enough money to make it stick.

PW was a man of his time and because of him we have this formidable history of TVR in the 90s but the world moved on and he didn't, so astute? No. TVR rose and fell on his watch and because of his actions and beliefs.

If you wanted to sell TVRs in America and underpin your business with sales numbers that resembled those of the 90s then it had to be built by Americans and fitted with a US engine. No American was going to buy the S6 the AJP or the Rover. When you sepnd time in the US you realise that they are far more jingoistic than any Brit and while they buy into the 'British' brand they buy more into the American Dream and will tollerate it when something falls off the American Dream but not when something falls off an import.

The real key was to make them there under license with a US V8, plaster the marketing with the Union and Confederate Flags and you know what? People would have bought them instead of a Corvette. As a purely British import the target market would have turned away.

[dinkel]

Milky400 said:

some cracking pics, looked a fun place to work

There's a TVR thread here somwhere with all those snaps in. This russian link shows a collection of that.

[Blown2CV]

i feel any thread discussing TVRs now always stomps back over the same ground time after time... so many times! There are always the guys with the 'false' preconceptions about TVRs they have never driven, the guys who always have to give their 'informed' opinion on why TVR failed, the guys who want everyone to think they have insider knowledge or 'know someone' at TVR and 'simply can't talk about' what they know, the guys who wade in with borderline racist/xenophobic views and say a TVR isn't a TVR unless it was built by a certified thoroughbred englishman in a potting shed whilst wearing a tweed jacket and flat cap, and the guys with the strong views who never bought a car to keep the company afloat... but never the guy that actually seems in any way enthusiastic, hopeful or in any way positive. I do feel it is possible to skip most of these type of threads because the whole complaining thing has been done to death.

[Derek Smith]

DonkeyApple said:

Seriously . . .

So let's be serious and factual, moving away from opinion.

There was a very strong argument that the problem with TVR was the number of cars being built with too few staff so there seems little support for being massively over-staffed.

And 'most people wanting a sports car with 21st century luxuries'. Was that the Lotus reasoning?

I’m not sure what you base the assumption on that Wheeler wanted to keep the company British. He stated that the only reason the Rover V8 was dumped was because it was going out of production. My assumption, formed by those who were in the know, was the Wheeler wanted to keep his supply of engines in house.

As for Wheeler not having the bottle to lay off staff:

There was another offer on the table at the time of the NS takeover. After a private conversation with the man a little while after the take-over I believe that he thought NS provided the only hope of keeping the staff levels up.

I especially like the suggestion that NS did anything to the engine to make it more reliable. All that work had been done under PW’s stewardship. There is one man who changed the Speed 6 and made it much more reliable and he wasn’t Russian.

I also fail to see how NS’s actions were the correct ones. All he did was run it down and close it. I wouldn’t blame him. He was young and when I was his age I would have probably made a worse fist of it than he did. Be he was the one who shut TVR. Not Peter Wheeler.

The prime mover in the consortium that wanted to buy TVR went on to buy another car company in far worse state and appears to have made a success of that. I feel sure that had he taken over this ‘kaput’ company it would still be producing cars today. His business plan was, I believe, the correct one and one that would have saved TVR. And it didn’t involve America.

I’ve talked to a considerable number of the players in TVR, from the top to those on the shop floor, including many with intimate knowledge of the company, its finances, its problems and its strengths. They, to a man (and two women), disagree with your interpretation of Wheeler and the state of the company.

There is little doubt that the company could still be producing cars today. Indeed, there are very strong rumours that NS has turned down equally strong bids for the badge fairly recently.

Whoever is responsible for the demise of TVR it certainly wasn’t the bloke who built it up.

[G20RG B]

FFS.........please close this thread...

[DonkeyApple]

Derek Smith said:

DonkeyApple said:

Seriously . . .

So let's be serious and factual, moving away from opinion.

There was a very strong argument that the problem with TVR was the number of cars being built with too few staff so there seems little support for being massively over-staffed.

And 'most people wanting a sports car with 21st century luxuries'. Was that the Lotus reasoning?

I’m not sure what you base the assumption on that Wheeler wanted to keep the company British. He stated that the only reason the Rover V8 was dumped was because it was going out of production. My assumption, formed by those who were in the know, was the Wheeler wanted to keep his supply of engines in house.

As for Wheeler not having the bottle to lay off staff:

There was another offer on the table at the time of the NS takeover. After a private conversation with the man a little while after the take-over I believe that he thought NS provided the only hope of keeping the staff levels up.

I especially like the suggestion that NS did anything to the engine to make it more reliable. All that work had been done under PW’s stewardship. There is one man who changed the Speed 6 and made it much more reliable and he wasn’t Russian.

I also fail to see how NS’s actions were the correct ones. All he did was run it down and close it. I wouldn’t blame him. He was young and when I was his age I would have probably made a worse fist of it than he did. Be he was the one who shut TVR. Not Peter Wheeler.

The prime mover in the consortium that wanted to buy TVR went on to buy another car company in far worse state and appears to have made a success of that. I feel sure that had he taken over this ‘kaput’ company it would still be producing cars today. His business plan was, I believe, the correct one and one that would have saved TVR. And it didn’t involve America.

I’ve talked to a considerable number of the players in TVR, from the top to those on the shop floor, including many with intimate knowledge of the company, its finances, its problems and its strengths. They, to a man (and two women), disagree with your interpretation of Wheeler and the state of the company.

There is little doubt that the company could still be producing cars today. Indeed, there are very strong rumours that NS has turned down equally strong bids for the badge fairly recently.

Whoever is responsible for the demise of TVR it certainly wasn’t the bloke who built it up.

LNT couldn't get the money together. Reason being that when potential money looked at the books they laughed.

Derek, I am well aware that you have edited some magazine but that does not make you the fountain of all knowledge either old chap.

As for talking to people in a company from the top to the floor, when a company is dying it is primarily because no one on the inside can see what is going on or knows what to do. Rule 1.

Have some fun and download the last 4 years of accounts. Once you've done that there will be no need for you to continue this tack.

[jimroyale]

Derek Smith said:

DonkeyApple said:

Seriously . . .

So let's be serious and factual, moving away from opinion.

There was a very strong argument that the problem with TVR was the number of cars being built with too few staff so there seems little support for being massively over-staffed.

And 'most people wanting a sports car with 21st century luxuries'. Was that the Lotus reasoning?

I’m not sure what you base the assumption on that Wheeler wanted to keep the company British. He stated that the only reason the Rover V8 was dumped was because it was going out of production. My assumption, formed by those who were in the know, was the Wheeler wanted to keep his supply of engines in house.

As for Wheeler not having the bottle to lay off staff:

There was another offer on the table at the time of the NS takeover. After a private conversation with the man a little while after the take-over I believe that he thought NS provided the only hope of keeping the staff levels up.

I especially like the suggestion that NS did anything to the engine to make it more reliable. All that work had been done under PW’s stewardship. There is one man who changed the Speed 6 and made it much more reliable and he wasn’t Russian.

I also fail to see how NS’s actions were the correct ones. All he did was run it down and close it. I wouldn’t blame him. He was young and when I was his age I would have probably made a worse fist of it than he did. Be he was the one who shut TVR. Not Peter Wheeler.

The prime mover in the consortium that wanted to buy TVR went on to buy another car company in far worse state and appears to have made a success of that. I feel sure that had he taken over this ‘kaput’ company it would still be producing cars today. His business plan was, I believe, the correct one and one that would have saved TVR. And it didn’t involve America.

I’ve talked to a considerable number of the players in TVR, from the top to those on the shop floor, including many with intimate knowledge of the company, its finances, its problems and its strengths. They, to a man (and two women), disagree with your interpretation of Wheeler and the state of the company.

There is little doubt that the company could still be producing cars today. Indeed, there are very strong rumours that NS has turned down equally strong bids for the badge fairly recently.

Whoever is responsible for the demise of TVR it certainly wasn’t the bloke who built it up.

You tell them Derick. Nobody can really argue with your last comment in particular. The fact that there are still faceless idividuals that continue to try to deface what PW did and pitty the young kid with loads of cash and no brains begs a question or two. What planet are they on? or who do they work for? Without PW, TVR would still be making unattractive kit cars. Without our Russian guru, TVR would still be in buisness. The mad man employed hundreds of people for a year to what TV. He even bought large TV's and didn't bat an eyelid when everyone slept, had gone home, or used company materials and machinery to do their own jobs whilst being paid. He obviously had ideas that didn't involve making cars.

[julianc]

DonkeyApple said:

What NS did after purchase to redress the problems were very good and sensible descisions, he just didn't have the money and was dealing with a stubborn Northern workforce that needed culling and whipping back into line, although it's easier to shut up shop and re-open elsewhere.

With respect, utter bks.

Although given the sector in which you work, you would probably know how to f**k things up big time....

[DonkeyApple]

julianc said:

DonkeyApple said:

What NS did after purchase to redress the problems were very good and sensible descisions, he just didn't have the money and was dealing with a stubborn Northern workforce that needed culling and whipping back into line, although it's easier to shut up shop and re-open elsewhere.

With respect, utter bks.

Although given the sector in which you work, you would probably know how to f**k things up big time....

Ah, the joys of being a bitter little man.

[Derek Smith]

I would appear that it is true that the car manufacturing part of TVR had lost money on a number of years. Given the number of insiders who say this I have little doubt it is true. But there is also little doubt that overall TVR made money most years.

I've heard from a number of sources that the Tuscan Challenge made money. The crash repair side made money. The servicing side made money. The parts side too. I don't know the details of years, etc, but there are a number of people in the know who have confirmed this.

To my way of thinking, if a company makes an overall profit then which individual part of it makes the most is of little concern when coming to a conclusion as to whether the company was profitable.

The only way of knowing if TVR was successful, as opposed to profitable, not necessarily the same thing, is to ask PW. I have been told that if he had the chance again he would probably have done some things differently but that surely goes for all of us in our endeavours. Indeed, I think that is a positive. But it is no good critising PW for making his own engines if one thing he wanted was to make his own engines.

I thought it a step too far. But then, what really mattered was whether PW felt it worth the effort.

I remember seeing a program on television, a dozen or so years ago, maybe more, where an outside consultant went into Morgan and criticised just about every department. This is Morgan, the company this is still making cars, employing staff and designing some exciting models. And still not following the advice they were given. They are not to my taste but in that I seem to be a minority. I also assume the owners want to produce just that type of car so they are doing things perfectly. After all, they are still going. It seemed to me that the criteria used by this consultant started from the wrong premise. It should have been based on what the owners of Morgan wanted to do.

One thing I would like to ask NS, and I'm not saying this to make a point or to be sarcastic, or to have a dig. But why did you close those parts of TVR that were making a profit all but immediately?

I know the Challenge as it was going at that time was losing impetus but there could have been life left in it with a little bit of a fiddle - Ginetta has shown us that. So that one might be understandable as it would have required a bit of real effort to get it all going again. But why the others?

I went on a business course run by people who had run businesses and were running businesses. The one thing they all said was that the odds are against you. A good idea, the willingness to work hard, and strong business set-up is no guarantee of success. You will make poor decisions, you will miss the bleedin' obvious. I forget the proportion of successful to failed businesses but it made me ensure that I did not invest any money I didn't have in mine.

PW went into TVR with a fair bit of experience in running a business and struggled at times. Maybe even all the time, I don't know. But when he was looking for someone to buy the company I was told that the badge alone had been valued at £millions. So well done PW. I have heard various figures bandied about regarding debts that the company had. I have no idea if these are true or not. In discussiion with a friend he said that he doubted the higher figures given the financial risk involved.

I asked a high up manager of the company about the CCJs and he stated, without any hesitation, that this was the norm.

Whatever, NS bought into a specialist car company at a difficult time. The fact that he failed does not make him an idiot, stupid or brainless. In makes him one of the majority of car companies in this country. He would appear to be trying something new with the badge. Well best of luck to him. He'll need it. The odds are stacked against him.

PW bought a company that was in dire straights. He built it up to where, at one time, it was the second or third - depending on whom you believe - biggest British car manufacturer. He sold it for a healthy profit.

I only wish I could have been as big a failure as he.

[julianc]

DonkeyApple said:

julianc said:

DonkeyApple said:

What NS did after purchase to redress the problems were very good and sensible descisions, he just didn't have the money and was dealing with a stubborn Northern workforce that needed culling and whipping back into line, although it's easier to shut up shop and re-open elsewhere.

With respect, utter bks.

Although given the sector in which you work, you would probably know how to f**k things up big time....

Ah, the joys of being a bitter little man.

I am not bitter, I just know who with whom I would rather spend my time. And that is with people who used to work at the factory, not people in the financial sector who have f**ked up this country.

[DonkeyApple]

julianc said:

DonkeyApple said:

julianc said:

DonkeyApple said:

What NS did after purchase to redress the problems were very good and sensible descisions, he just didn't have the money and was dealing with a stubborn Northern workforce that needed culling and whipping back into line, although it's easier to shut up shop and re-open elsewhere.

With respect, utter bks.

Although given the sector in which you work, you would probably know how to f**k things up big time....

Ah, the joys of being a bitter little man.

I am not bitter, I just know who with whom I would rather spend my time. And that is with people who used to work at the factory, not people in the financial sector who have f**ked up this country.

Sad and bitter little man.

And not very smart either, clearly.

[Gazzab]

ZzzzZzz. Let's blame an IT man from the city for the ills of this country whilst downing a pint with an out of work factory worker. Then tomorrow read the Daily Mail!

[GTRene]

for Italien
8-sept

TVR: in arrivo una roadster con il V8 Corvette: in arrivo una roadster con il V8 Corvette

said:

Quando si parla di anticipazioni sul conto di TVR, glorioso marchio marchio britannico che un pugno di appassionati della bella guida conosce e stima, bisogna sempre andarci con i piedi di piombo. Fatta questa necessaria premessa, veniamo alla notizia: la casa potrebbe presto presentare una nuova roadster equipaggiata con il V8 della Corvette.

TVR, che non ha certo attraversato un bel periodo negli ultimi anni, sta progettando di costruire questo modello proprio in Gran Bretagna. Non è facile, ma sarebbe il suggello perfetto alla resurrezione del marchio. Anche perché non è che le alternative siano poi molte: a fine aprile scrivevamo dei piani per produrre il modello nell’ex-Germania Est, ma il tutto si è risolto in un gran buco nell’acqua., che non ha certo attraversato un bel periodo negli ultimi anni, sta progettando di costruire questo modello proprio in Gran Bretagna. Non è facile, ma sarebbe il suggello perfetto alla resurrezione del marchio. Anche perché non è che le alternative siano poi molte: a fine aprile scrivevamo dei piani per produrre il modello nell’ex-Germania Est, ma il tutto si è risolto in un gran buco nell’acqua.

I colloqui con il possibile partner tedesco non hanno infatti portato ad un accordo sui termini del contratto, che prevedeva la responsabilità della progettazione nelle mani di TVR e la produzione in quelle dei tedeschi. Nonostante il fallimento, TVR e la produzione in quelle dei tedeschi. Nonostante il fallimento, Nikolai SmolenskiSmolenski, il discusso proprietario della casa britannica, si dice tuttora convinto che la nuova TVR si farà. Tanto che a quanto pare, il piccolo costruttore è ancora al lavoro sulla vettura…TVR si farà. Tanto che a quanto pare, il piccolo costruttore è ancora al lavoro sulla vettura…

translated in English makes this (not much sence )

said:

When we speak of advances on the account of TVR, glorious British brand mark that a handful of enthusiasts of good guide knows and estimation, always go with heavy. Without this necessary premise, we come to the news that the House would soon present a new roadster equipped with the Corvette V8.
TVR, who has not crossed a nice period in recent years, is planning to build this model precisely in Britain. It is not easy, but it would be the perfect seal to the resurrection of the mark. Also because it is not that the alternatives are many: at the end of April we wrote plans to produce the model in the former East Germany, but everything is resolved to a large hole in the water, which has not crossed a nice period in recent years, is planning to build this model precisely in Britain. It is not easy, but it would be the perfect seal to the resurrection of the mark. Also because it is not that the alternatives are many: at the end of April we wrote plans to produce the model in the former East Germany, but everything is resolved to a large hole in the water.
Talks with the German partners can not have led to an agreement on the terms of the contract, which included responsibility for the design in the hands of TVR and production in those of the Germans. Despite the failure, TVR and production in those of the Germans. Despite the failure, Nikolai SmolenskiSmolenski, the British home owner discussed, it says still convinced that the new TVR you will. So much so that it appears that the small constructor is still working on the car … TVR you will. So much so that it appears that the small constructor is still working on the car ...

http://www.markusauto.com/?p=31563

Edited by GTRene on Friday 24th September 21:45

[deevlash]

DonkeyApple said:

julianc said:

DonkeyApple said:

julianc said:

DonkeyApple said:

What NS did after purchase to redress the problems were very good and sensible descisions, he just didn't have the money and was dealing with a stubborn Northern workforce that needed culling and whipping back into line, although it's easier to shut up shop and re-open elsewhere.

With respect, utter bks.

Although given the sector in which you work, you would probably know how to f**k things up big time....

Ah, the joys of being a bitter little man.

I am not bitter, I just know who with whom I would rather spend my time. And that is with people who used to work at the factory, not people in the financial sector who have f**ked up this country.

Sad and bitter little man.

And not very smart either, clearly.

I agree, I dont know all the ins and outs but it seems pretty obvious to me that PW bailed whilst there was still a chance to make some money. As for the person who compared TVR to Lotus in that they were maiking cars without mod cons, thats a daft point. The Elise at the time had a modern extruded, corrosion resistant chassis and was marketed as a pure drivers car with class leading handling.

The TVR's of their day still had the same old steel chassis that were prone to rusting, were certainly not marketed as stripped out driving machines and as was well documented everywhere, interesting handling.

PW keeping ownership of the factory and renting it back to NS/TVR must have been a huge burden on the company too.

[GTRene]

ah, found a better translated story somewhere else

said:

Ownership of TVR has changed hands a couple of times, with the future of the company changing with each signature placed on the dotted line. Recently, sometime in June 2010, it was announced that TVR would be working together with Gullwing - a specialist German firm - to prepare a new model that would start production in September 2010. Well, here we are in September, and we haven’t heard a thing about the new model.

Turns out, Jurgen Mohr – a former TVR owner and now Gullwing chief - and TVR boss Nikolai Smolenski were unable to reach an agreement on the terms of the new model and so TVR has decided to move along on its own. Its creation is said to be a roadster model featuring a Corvette V8 engine.

Apparently, the new model will be designed by TVR man, David Martin, and will most likely be built in UK, but TVR secretary James Oxley said "we’re keeping our options open."

As for the engine to be placed under the hood, Smolenski said "We looked at every engine available — including making our own — and decided that the Corvette was the most powerful off-the-shelf design going. Fitting it to our chassis allows us to meet all current regulations and is not too big a step."

so they maybe build it in the UK...(if all goes one, and one day it will....)

[V8TVR1978]

Blown2CV said:

i feel any thread discussing TVRs now always stomps back over the same ground time after time... so many times! There are always the guys with the 'false' preconceptions about TVRs they have never driven, the guys who always have to give their 'informed' opinion on why TVR failed, the guys who want everyone to think they have insider knowledge or 'know someone' at TVR and 'simply can't talk about' what they know, the guys who wade in with borderline racist/xenophobic views and say a TVR isn't a TVR unless it was built by a certified thoroughbred englishman in a potting shed whilst wearing a tweed jacket and flat cap, and the guys with the strong views who never bought a car to keep the company afloat... but never the guy that actually seems in any way enthusiastic, hopeful or in any way positive. I do feel it is possible to skip most of these type of threads because the whole complaining thing has been done to death.

Stuart: You are shooting right from the hip with this post. We have 2 Taimars that were converted to V8s by the Canadian importer and a 1973 2500M. We don't think any less of the Taimars because they were completed in a shop by some fellows who wear blue jeans and speak with Canadian accents and they had TVR Engineering's blessings. We appreciate our 3 cars because they are TVRs and that TreVoR had a dream for common people like ourselves to be able to own, drive, enjoy (and sometimes be forced to fix) a handbuilt sportscar. All the owners, from TreVoR to date have had their ups and downs with their ownership, which has never pleased everyone all the time but we feel very honored to have been able to enjoy our cars and meet very many interesting TVR owners/fans over the years. Last year we drove 100 miles to Banff Canada to spend an evening with someone who is high up with the TVRCC and my whole family still talks about that evening and he even got a small TVR "fix" while on his holidays. The first five minutes were tense but once we all realized that our families were both enthusiasts of the TVR brand, we had an excellent evening and my family hopes that we can repeat it again. Even with the North American V8s in our Taimars, they are still TVRs and part of TreVoRs dream and for those that want to state that they are not "True TVRs", I don't hear you as you don't count.

[GTRene]

amen to that

nice set of TVR's you have with nice updates.

[The real Apache]

Blown2CV said:

the guys who want everyone to think they have insider knowledge or 'know someone' at TVR and 'simply can't talk about' what they know,

I know exactly who you're talking about

[fatbutt]

Two years ago, when I moved to the US I had two cars I wanted to import; my roller and my 2000 griff 500. The roller was older than 25 years so didn't have to pass the EPA requirements but the griff was 'new' so had to be substantially modified. I decided against importing and have regretted it ever since. As soon as I heard about the possibility of TVRs aimed at the US market I thought my prayers had been answered. There is simply nothing like a TVR over here and its not like I can buy an old one.

Nick, get your act together and get something into the market. People over here know enough to want one and know nothing of these 'arguements'. It'd be a clean slate...