RE: Exclusive: The Wheeler Interview
Discussion
I fully agree that TVR needs to listen to consumer demands about providing airbags, ABS and traction control as options IF they want to grow to a company the size of Porsche. But, that's a very big if. I suspect that Peter Wheeler is reasonably happy with the success he turned TVR into. Let's face it, you get drop dead looks and Porsche beating performance, for very little money. And the best bit, in my opinion, is it is totally British. Not supported by Ford or VAG but British through and through. But that's a different topic that I could rant on about to those who can be bothered to listen.
I feel there are 2 separate issues here. Would these safety devices actually improve TVR's, be it making them faster or safer or is it just a consumer perception that since all VW's now come with ABS, so should TVR? I can see arguments for both to be honest. I'm sure that by adding ABS would make TVR's more desirable to some people, but equally less desirable to others. But bearing in mind only a thousand or so lucky people get to drive off in a brand new TVR every year, which kind of owner do you really think PW would be happier to be driving his cars, those that appreciate them for what they are, or those that drive them purely because that are pretty?? Again, I'm going off the topic a bit but surely that's the owners prerogative(sp), if you insist on buying a car with ABS, buy something else.
I personally admire the guy for having the guts to stick 2 fingers up to the rest of the motoring industry and sticking to his guns. I also believe that much of what he said is an excuse dressed up as a justification.
I love the fact that my TVR has no driver aids. Would I buy one brand new without driver aids - definitely. Would I fit them if they were an option - possibly. But that wouldn't be because I would feel safer, it would be to add re-sale value.
Since I bought the Griff, I have covered around 20,000 miles in 18 months. For most of that time, I've been in traffic, cruising, doing the commute, sitting on the motorway at 60, 70, 80 mph. Yeah, sure I've gone faster too - and who hasn't, but it's not hard, and it's not unsafe if you drive sensibly. But every once in a while, for 5% maybe 10% of the time, I drive faster and I have fun. I love coming sideways off a roundabout in a burst of spontaneous passion, drifting it around a bend that I know well, tailsliding out of T-junctions. And I think the key word there is spontaneous. I don't plan it, I don't think, "Ooo, better turn the TC off here so I can loon about a bit" and that is why I don't want driver aids on my car. It takes away a certain freedom that I bought into when I bought my TVR, it takes away some of the passion and the edge. And, if I might venture it, it takes away a lot of what TVR is all about.
I have another argument too, if you'll allow me to continue. When I do drive like that, I'm very conscious that at any moment the car could bite back, and so I don't push it too far. If there were driver aids, would I go that little bit further, safe in the knowledge that the car will bail me out? Who knows? But I know I've a great deal of respect for my car, because it is so raw.
I think that TVR has got a truly winning formula. Perhaps a little engine diversity wouldn't go amiss, but for heavens sake, this is a tiny company without the limitless R&D funds of Porsche. It's not as though TVR is suffering because people are refusing to buy cars because they don't have safety aids, and I say, if it ain't broken - don't fix it!
I feel there are 2 separate issues here. Would these safety devices actually improve TVR's, be it making them faster or safer or is it just a consumer perception that since all VW's now come with ABS, so should TVR? I can see arguments for both to be honest. I'm sure that by adding ABS would make TVR's more desirable to some people, but equally less desirable to others. But bearing in mind only a thousand or so lucky people get to drive off in a brand new TVR every year, which kind of owner do you really think PW would be happier to be driving his cars, those that appreciate them for what they are, or those that drive them purely because that are pretty?? Again, I'm going off the topic a bit but surely that's the owners prerogative(sp), if you insist on buying a car with ABS, buy something else.
I personally admire the guy for having the guts to stick 2 fingers up to the rest of the motoring industry and sticking to his guns. I also believe that much of what he said is an excuse dressed up as a justification.
I love the fact that my TVR has no driver aids. Would I buy one brand new without driver aids - definitely. Would I fit them if they were an option - possibly. But that wouldn't be because I would feel safer, it would be to add re-sale value.
Since I bought the Griff, I have covered around 20,000 miles in 18 months. For most of that time, I've been in traffic, cruising, doing the commute, sitting on the motorway at 60, 70, 80 mph. Yeah, sure I've gone faster too - and who hasn't, but it's not hard, and it's not unsafe if you drive sensibly. But every once in a while, for 5% maybe 10% of the time, I drive faster and I have fun. I love coming sideways off a roundabout in a burst of spontaneous passion, drifting it around a bend that I know well, tailsliding out of T-junctions. And I think the key word there is spontaneous. I don't plan it, I don't think, "Ooo, better turn the TC off here so I can loon about a bit" and that is why I don't want driver aids on my car. It takes away a certain freedom that I bought into when I bought my TVR, it takes away some of the passion and the edge. And, if I might venture it, it takes away a lot of what TVR is all about.
I have another argument too, if you'll allow me to continue. When I do drive like that, I'm very conscious that at any moment the car could bite back, and so I don't push it too far. If there were driver aids, would I go that little bit further, safe in the knowledge that the car will bail me out? Who knows? But I know I've a great deal of respect for my car, because it is so raw.
I think that TVR has got a truly winning formula. Perhaps a little engine diversity wouldn't go amiss, but for heavens sake, this is a tiny company without the limitless R&D funds of Porsche. It's not as though TVR is suffering because people are refusing to buy cars because they don't have safety aids, and I say, if it ain't broken - don't fix it!
jam1et said:
Traction control, ABS, EBD, and electronically controlled suspension didnt stop my best mate wrapping his Maser 3200GT round a lampost when he booted it exiting a roundabout.
But he walked away (apparently) and the Chim driver in Blackpool did not last weekend.
I still maintain I'd be happier with some more development on the structural integrity and chassis fronts than just grafting ABS and 'bags onto otherwise unchanged cars. That would certainly make me aspire to owning a new(ish) TVR more than I do right now.
Which is where we come to the nub of the problem. No one here seems to really credit his claims that its safer not to have these devices (unless you buy into the spiked steering wheel thought experiment). In the end its all about money.
As to aftermarket traction control. Unless you have ABS then you have to have a horrible system that cuts fueling or ignition to the engine to limit power. You lose either way with this. One way you have no fuel in the engine which is hardly good for it, the other way you don't ignite it which may cause your CATs to ignite. Eeek....
As to aftermarket ABS, you have to be kidding. You can't just plumb in a random ABS system and expect it to be properly setup etc. Furthermore its a very complicated (and thus expensive) thing to setup correctly which is probably why TVR can't do it either.
In the end though, TVRs are very idiosyncratic. Perhaps they'd lose their individuality and spark if these proposed changes were to occur. They'd end up too close to Lotus perhaps.
As to aftermarket traction control. Unless you have ABS then you have to have a horrible system that cuts fueling or ignition to the engine to limit power. You lose either way with this. One way you have no fuel in the engine which is hardly good for it, the other way you don't ignite it which may cause your CATs to ignite. Eeek....
As to aftermarket ABS, you have to be kidding. You can't just plumb in a random ABS system and expect it to be properly setup etc. Furthermore its a very complicated (and thus expensive) thing to setup correctly which is probably why TVR can't do it either.
In the end though, TVRs are very idiosyncratic. Perhaps they'd lose their individuality and spark if these proposed changes were to occur. They'd end up too close to Lotus perhaps.
RichB said:
A.G. said:
Edited to say I just realised I sound like a Volvo driver. Sorry and goodnight.
There's nothing inherently wrong with Volvo drivers...this volvo driver has his "My other cars a TVR" sticker ready and waiting! OhPhil
Don't worry Phil. The TVR & T5 combination is quite popular amongst more enlightened drivers amongst us.Rich...
*cough* Erm ... V40 TD mate. :-(
Unfortunately a necessary evil given how far from work I live.
Phil
Basically I like my Tiv the way it is, I like the rawness of it - its the same reason I've always owned classic cars. Like I said if you want ABS, EBD, Traction control, elctonically controlled suspension, air bags etc etc then go buy something else.
If TVR had to invest in these kinds of devices for such a limited production run then prices would sky rocket. Why do you think TVR's are so cheap? (as compared to the competition). If they did this, then TVR's would be priced out of most peoples reach and we wouldnt even be having this discussion.
If TVR had to invest in these kinds of devices for such a limited production run then prices would sky rocket. Why do you think TVR's are so cheap? (as compared to the competition). If they did this, then TVR's would be priced out of most peoples reach and we wouldnt even be having this discussion.
Sorry to inertupt but its 0130 am and the only thing left in the drinks cab is a weird asparagus based liquor from the Caspian Sea.
In my opinion people will pay their money and take their choice.
I (we) buy TVR's (my opinion) because we have a spirit of adventure, not because we have an account at B & Q and a love for holidays in Spain. Some of us really dont give a flying **** if we wipe ourselves out in a high risk car like a TIV but we would never condone risks to others also.
TVR's are fantastic machines that are inspirational and transcend a feeling of 'freedom from the masses' like no other car maker can or will ever be able to do at the price.
My heart goes out to anyone that has lost a loved one in a car accident.
However its debateable that TIV drivers are a higher risk than higher risk in my experience. Waffle, waffle.
In my opinion people will pay their money and take their choice.
I (we) buy TVR's (my opinion) because we have a spirit of adventure, not because we have an account at B & Q and a love for holidays in Spain. Some of us really dont give a flying **** if we wipe ourselves out in a high risk car like a TIV but we would never condone risks to others also.
TVR's are fantastic machines that are inspirational and transcend a feeling of 'freedom from the masses' like no other car maker can or will ever be able to do at the price.
My heart goes out to anyone that has lost a loved one in a car accident.
However its debateable that TIV drivers are a higher risk than higher risk in my experience. Waffle, waffle.
Come on guys this has caused much debate - one of the first to comment suggested JC have a look at it on topgear.
Here is the link
www.bbc.co.uk/topgear/
there is a comments box - add your request for a proper test, TVR v's ABS, air bag etc - JC loves a good crash!
I have lets get it done
Here is the link
www.bbc.co.uk/topgear/
there is a comments box - add your request for a proper test, TVR v's ABS, air bag etc - JC loves a good crash!
I have lets get it done
Seems to me that there are two choices: buy a TVR as it is, or buy something else. After all, you don't go to Comet and say "I'd like this £3000 telly... but I'm not buying it 'cos it has no microwave oven built in".
PW owns the company; the money (profit or loss) is his; decisions on the future are his; this has been done to death plenty of times on here and elsewhere.
Just as there will always be people who can afford to buy a £50,000 car and throw away £15,000 in first-year depreciation, so there will always be those who will buy 'a particular product' because THEY LIKE IT AS IT IS.
PW owns the company; the money (profit or loss) is his; decisions on the future are his; this has been done to death plenty of times on here and elsewhere.
Just as there will always be people who can afford to buy a £50,000 car and throw away £15,000 in first-year depreciation, so there will always be those who will buy 'a particular product' because THEY LIKE IT AS IT IS.
You should see what some of our TVRCC Tasmin lads have done to our cars and survived, just a bit of whiplash or a broken rib, but up and running again for more!- probably deceased in a Caterfield. Sorry don't really want to be morbid.The combination of strong chassis ( and cage) plus energy absorbing glass fibre body works wonders, believe me.
Pat
Pat
How long have these various kinds of safety devices been widely available in family cars? 5 years, or maybe 10 in the case of air bags? If thats the case, and the industry is correct that these safety devices save lives and reduce serious injury, then how come the number of deaths and serious injuries on our roads has remained static or indeed increased in some areas? They dont really seem to be making a whole lot of difference to me.
Some very valid points here, all I can say is have you tried to stop a car with ABS in the snow? Its not easy if fact its got no brakes at all! Not a nice experience. Had to use the handbrake on a number of occasions, try keeping that in a straight line!
Could anyone explain how on a dry road with good traction a non ABS car will out brake a ABS equipped car? All the tests I have seen in Top Gear etc state otherwise.
Before anyone says that they can not drive properly, either can the majority of the general public including a lot of TVR drivers no matter how enthusiastic they my be.
Paul
Could anyone explain how on a dry road with good traction a non ABS car will out brake a ABS equipped car? All the tests I have seen in Top Gear etc state otherwise.
Before anyone says that they can not drive properly, either can the majority of the general public including a lot of TVR drivers no matter how enthusiastic they my be.
Paul
on a dry road, slamming your foot on the brake with
no ABS will tend to not immediately lock the wheels at high speed.
It will slow you down as quick as possible, then when the car has slowed down (20mph or so), the wheel will tend to lock.
In the dry at slow speeds, locked wheels will skid and slow a car as quick or quicker than ABS (which you can think of as locking and unlocking quickly).
basically if you just skid to a stop, you'll stop quicker in the dry on a good roand surface most of the time than with ABS. Burning, melting rubber is quite grippy.
But the difference is a few feet.
In wet, the average driver (and lets face it, 50% of people are below that by definition) will stop sh%t loads quicker with ABS, as the wheel will lock at high speed without it. they then have hardly any traction and are usually too panicked to cadence brake.
I hear much bravado on here about braking, but I wonder how many of you can apply braking to the limit of traction in less than a second on an unknown road surface. I certainly can't. Some F1 drivers can't round a changing race circuit lap after lap. You can't.
I also wonder how many of you have every cadence braked ? It is a lot more difficult than it sounds. Most advanced instructors will tell you not to faff about, the best way is just to jam your foot on the brake as fast and hard as you can.. if you lock up, take it off and jam it on hard again. i.e. do what ABS does (though it never takes the pressure off more than it has to).
In the wet, it is much much more tricky, as even one lock up by a human is likely to be for several metres before they get a chance to react.
I'm no expert here, but I do often use the ABS in my cars, and make a point of finding out the grip levels and 'lockability' of my brakes on my favourite roads.
There has been a lot of talk about wrapping it round lamposts, etc.
To me, it's about hitting the kid running out on the road or not. With ABS you won't far more often. And even if you do, it will be at lower speed.
Consider a marginal case at 30-40mph:
Without it, in the dry you'll be ok.. provided you are not trying to be a smart arse, even in an emergency and slowly trying to apply max braking without skidding (you will loose far more time farting around than you'll save)
In the wet, without ABS, you'll either hit them at high speed (lock up), or lower speed (cadence or very very good braking control). With ABS, there is a good chance you will stop, be able to swerve, or worse case hit at low speed.
I'd take ABS anytime for that alone.
stu
no ABS will tend to not immediately lock the wheels at high speed.
It will slow you down as quick as possible, then when the car has slowed down (20mph or so), the wheel will tend to lock.
In the dry at slow speeds, locked wheels will skid and slow a car as quick or quicker than ABS (which you can think of as locking and unlocking quickly).
basically if you just skid to a stop, you'll stop quicker in the dry on a good roand surface most of the time than with ABS. Burning, melting rubber is quite grippy.
But the difference is a few feet.
In wet, the average driver (and lets face it, 50% of people are below that by definition) will stop sh%t loads quicker with ABS, as the wheel will lock at high speed without it. they then have hardly any traction and are usually too panicked to cadence brake.
I hear much bravado on here about braking, but I wonder how many of you can apply braking to the limit of traction in less than a second on an unknown road surface. I certainly can't. Some F1 drivers can't round a changing race circuit lap after lap. You can't.
I also wonder how many of you have every cadence braked ? It is a lot more difficult than it sounds. Most advanced instructors will tell you not to faff about, the best way is just to jam your foot on the brake as fast and hard as you can.. if you lock up, take it off and jam it on hard again. i.e. do what ABS does (though it never takes the pressure off more than it has to).
In the wet, it is much much more tricky, as even one lock up by a human is likely to be for several metres before they get a chance to react.
I'm no expert here, but I do often use the ABS in my cars, and make a point of finding out the grip levels and 'lockability' of my brakes on my favourite roads.
There has been a lot of talk about wrapping it round lamposts, etc.
To me, it's about hitting the kid running out on the road or not. With ABS you won't far more often. And even if you do, it will be at lower speed.
Consider a marginal case at 30-40mph:
Without it, in the dry you'll be ok.. provided you are not trying to be a smart arse, even in an emergency and slowly trying to apply max braking without skidding (you will loose far more time farting around than you'll save)
In the wet, without ABS, you'll either hit them at high speed (lock up), or lower speed (cadence or very very good braking control). With ABS, there is a good chance you will stop, be able to swerve, or worse case hit at low speed.
I'd take ABS anytime for that alone.
stu
powerlord said:
on a dry road, slamming your foot on the brake with
no ABS will tend to not immediately lock the wheels at high speed.
Incorrect - you can still lock wheels if you hit the brakes hard enough at any speed.
powerlord said:
It will slow you down as quick as possible, then when the car has slowed down (20mph or so), the wheel will tend to lock.
In the dry at slow speeds, locked wheels will skid and slow a car as quick or quicker than ABS (which you can think of as locking and unlocking quickly).
basically if you just skid to a stop, you'll stop quicker in the dry on a good roand surface most of the time than with ABS. Burning, melting rubber is quite grippy.
Again, incorrect. The coefficient of friction for a locked tyre is less than that of a rolling tyre, so you will slow down quicker if the wheels are still rolling.
The only time a locked wheel will slow you down more quickly is in gravel or snow, where the locked wheel allows the snow/gravel to build up under the front like a wedge.
This was great article and the points made are very valid. The last thing I want when things are going wrong is to have an air bag blow up in my face.
I’m all for a solid chassis too, I was rear ended by an artic truck in my Alpha Spider, the only damage to the Spider was a neat imprint of the trucks number plate. The spider just bounced off, no crumple zones there.
ABS is open to debate, with the right feedback through the car under braking you can manage the situation yourself, both braking and steering. The balance of the brakes front & rear is more important when controlling the car.
I’m all for a solid chassis too, I was rear ended by an artic truck in my Alpha Spider, the only damage to the Spider was a neat imprint of the trucks number plate. The spider just bounced off, no crumple zones there.
ABS is open to debate, with the right feedback through the car under braking you can manage the situation yourself, both braking and steering. The balance of the brakes front & rear is more important when controlling the car.
ehasler said:
on a dry road, slamming your foot on the brake with
no ABS will tend to not immediately lock the wheels at high speed.
Incorrect - you can still lock wheels if you hit the brakes hard enough at any speed. ]
just speaking from experience. It's certainly the case with my car. I agree, if you jab it, you will skid, but apply progressively and I can't lock up until my speed is low.
powerlord said:
It will slow you down as quick as possible, then when the car has slowed down (20mph or so), the wheel will tend to lock.
In the dry at slow speeds, locked wheels will skid and slow a car as quick or quicker than ABS (which you can think of as locking and unlocking quickly).
basically if you just skid to a stop, you'll stop quicker in the dry on a good roand surface most of the time than with ABS. Burning, melting rubber is quite grippy.
Again, incorrect. The coefficient of friction for a locked tyre is less than that of a rolling tyre, so you will slow down quicker if the wheels are still rolling.
Well, I bow to your judgement on that one. That, I just read in various car mags over the years.
This government page seems to confirm what I said, and also what you say (i.e. only some abs systems will stop you quicker in the dry, and abs system lengthens stops on snow):
www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/equipment/absbrakes.html
and this page suggest both friction coefficients are high, so could be tyre dependant:
www.hwysafety.org/safety_facts/qanda/antilock.htm
About 4 years ago I had an accident in my TVR Chimaera - some bloke in a 3 series BMW with 4 passengers was amber gambling and basically went through a red light. Hit my car on the driver's side just behind the seat at some speed, and spun my car right round. Thinking back to the accident I remember the body of the car flexing and absorbing the force of the impact. I was completely unharmed. Damage on my car was £1700 worth of work. However the damage to the BMW was well in excess of £3000!!! I remember opening up his bonnet and seeing the engine completely misplaced, hanging down on one side. I was very impressed with the way the Chimp handled the crash!!!
When I did my Ride-Drive course (a week after owning the car), I was hugely impressed and suprised by the power and control offered by the bog standard brakes on the Chimaera.
This was when making VERY good progress down the runway and being "asked" to slam the anchors on.
The main thing I came away from the day with was, an understanding of where the limits are on the car, and what happens when you exceed them.
The limits were further out than I thought, but it made me treat them with a healthy respect ever since.
That is probably the first and best safety device.....
This was when making VERY good progress down the runway and being "asked" to slam the anchors on.
The main thing I came away from the day with was, an understanding of where the limits are on the car, and what happens when you exceed them.
The limits were further out than I thought, but it made me treat them with a healthy respect ever since.
That is probably the first and best safety device.....
belt pre-tensioners, airbags, side impact bars, rollbars, all your choice your safety.
ABS is a completely different matter as its other road users safety as much as your own. In this respect on a 170+ mph car, 350+ bhp PW's views just don't hold water. I firmly believe no new "road" car should be sold without ABS regardless of the scale of production.
I seriously considered buying a Tamora but untimately concluded that you simply cannot responsibly drive such a car on the road with no active safety kit. I have a Porker on order and yes I have specified PSM.
ABS is a completely different matter as its other road users safety as much as your own. In this respect on a 170+ mph car, 350+ bhp PW's views just don't hold water. I firmly believe no new "road" car should be sold without ABS regardless of the scale of production.
I seriously considered buying a Tamora but untimately concluded that you simply cannot responsibly drive such a car on the road with no active safety kit. I have a Porker on order and yes I have specified PSM.
Ok this really is getting into a luddite v the world argument. Can't believe people here saying how great it is that their cars don't crumple. Er hello? I'd rather the car absorbed the impact forces into folding up neatly where designed rather than transferring all that force to the weak fleshbags inside. American cars used to be built like that. Crumpling cars is a great step forward. The only place you don't want it is within the passenger safety cell.
Anyway glad there are so many people who've done at best 1 road course and think they can brake effectively in a panic situation. I do track days, am on my 8th limit handling training day and still cock it up regularly. So do plenty of infinitely more skilled racing drivers. Its rather Zen, because if you think its easy, then you aren't a good enough to appreciate the skill required.
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