price increase
Discussion
Just spotted the email....
I've been thinking about taking my car to VMax for a couple of years now (only a lowly FWD Fiat Coupe, but with 480-ish bhp, it stood a chance of hitting 175+ - it was reaching over 155 after joining halfway down the runway on the "short" circuit)
However, two things have stopped me:
1) The price - at £200 - £300, it was an expensive day out, as I rather doubt the speeds would be hugely variable throughout the day in something like my car (ie once it has been maxxed, that's it - it ain't going any faster)
2) The surface - I was at Bruntingthorpe for an Asda charity event last year and it has destroyed the paintwork on my front bumper - genuinely looks like someone has taken a shotgun to it. I also walked on the runway for the Vulcan's round-Britain tour late last year and it is truly shocking in places, with broken tarmac that would make you wince if you hit them at normal road speeds - I guess when you're doing 150+, the tyres don't get chance to drop into the holes, so they aren't felt as much.
At £795, its an absolute no-go. I imagine for people than can afford to run the real exotica, its not an issue and I also imagine the costs of hosting the event are huge. Let's say you manage to get 20 runs in (is this even possible?), that's still £40 per run and with a run taking at best a couple of minutes, that's £1 every three seconds of track time. You could get an awful lot more track time by going to four separate trackdays (although I accept you'll never max a car anywhere else other than Brunters)
No doubt Craig will be along soon to explain, but I fear it is now well out of the reach of ordinary people with ordinary (but fairly quick) cars
Still an itch that needs to be scratched though, purely so I know what the car will do. Annoyingly, Plod won't accept the price increase as a reason for me to try it on the M42....
I've been thinking about taking my car to VMax for a couple of years now (only a lowly FWD Fiat Coupe, but with 480-ish bhp, it stood a chance of hitting 175+ - it was reaching over 155 after joining halfway down the runway on the "short" circuit)
However, two things have stopped me:
1) The price - at £200 - £300, it was an expensive day out, as I rather doubt the speeds would be hugely variable throughout the day in something like my car (ie once it has been maxxed, that's it - it ain't going any faster)
2) The surface - I was at Bruntingthorpe for an Asda charity event last year and it has destroyed the paintwork on my front bumper - genuinely looks like someone has taken a shotgun to it. I also walked on the runway for the Vulcan's round-Britain tour late last year and it is truly shocking in places, with broken tarmac that would make you wince if you hit them at normal road speeds - I guess when you're doing 150+, the tyres don't get chance to drop into the holes, so they aren't felt as much.
At £795, its an absolute no-go. I imagine for people than can afford to run the real exotica, its not an issue and I also imagine the costs of hosting the event are huge. Let's say you manage to get 20 runs in (is this even possible?), that's still £40 per run and with a run taking at best a couple of minutes, that's £1 every three seconds of track time. You could get an awful lot more track time by going to four separate trackdays (although I accept you'll never max a car anywhere else other than Brunters)
No doubt Craig will be along soon to explain, but I fear it is now well out of the reach of ordinary people with ordinary (but fairly quick) cars
Still an itch that needs to be scratched though, purely so I know what the car will do. Annoyingly, Plod won't accept the price increase as a reason for me to try it on the M42....
Posted an identical thread around the same time as you posted yours.
If demand was high, he would schedule in more events or split them up into different categories..
German only day, Audi/BMW/Merc etc
Jap only day
Supercar only day
Hypercar only
The demand is obviously not there otherwise he would be hosting a lot more events throughout the year. Just like the Autovivendi memberships targeting the rich, he's now had the brainwave that he would target this same audience for his vmax 200 events.
Someone else needs to undercut him and make Bruntingthorpe available for your average Joe in his 600hp £10k Evo (That would more than likely wipe the floor with a lot of the machinery on display at vmax today)
Rich city boys buy the nice cars but are not true petrol heads, most wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a piston and a connecting rod or how an ECU worked or the concepts of tuning, they buy the nice cars for the image rights. The conversations at these vmax events between the true petrolheads and the rich cityboys I'm sure would be highly amusing to listen too.
There's greed and then there's taking the pi*s
If demand was high, he would schedule in more events or split them up into different categories..
German only day, Audi/BMW/Merc etc
Jap only day
Supercar only day
Hypercar only
The demand is obviously not there otherwise he would be hosting a lot more events throughout the year. Just like the Autovivendi memberships targeting the rich, he's now had the brainwave that he would target this same audience for his vmax 200 events.
Someone else needs to undercut him and make Bruntingthorpe available for your average Joe in his 600hp £10k Evo (That would more than likely wipe the floor with a lot of the machinery on display at vmax today)
Rich city boys buy the nice cars but are not true petrol heads, most wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a piston and a connecting rod or how an ECU worked or the concepts of tuning, they buy the nice cars for the image rights. The conversations at these vmax events between the true petrolheads and the rich cityboys I'm sure would be highly amusing to listen too.
There's greed and then there's taking the pi*s
Edited by Leo-RS on Tuesday 26th January 20:29
Until Craig replies, I think its a bit strong to attack him as greedy - you never know, Bruntingthorpe may have stuck a "50-cars maximum" AND hiked their costs AND insisted on expensive insurance and other waivers
Whilst I've never met Craig, I get the impression that he's not entirely in it for the money, so I expect that a portion of the price hike will have been out of his control
However, regardless of the reasons, I agree that the current asking price puts the event out of the reach of most ordinary people
It would be great to have an inexpensive "ordinary cars" day, for the home tuner, with modest machinery - as an owner of a 16 year old Fiat, I'd fit right in....
I don't imagine that running an event for over-boosted nineties turbo-nutter stuff is any cheaper than it is for top-end exotica - in fact its probably more expensive, as the possibility of an off or a sumpful of oil on the racing line must be far higher with cars that were never meant to be doing 160+ and for drivers that aren't used to the speeds - I can imagine that a 458 at 160 feels like my car does at 100
Whilst I've never met Craig, I get the impression that he's not entirely in it for the money, so I expect that a portion of the price hike will have been out of his control
However, regardless of the reasons, I agree that the current asking price puts the event out of the reach of most ordinary people
It would be great to have an inexpensive "ordinary cars" day, for the home tuner, with modest machinery - as an owner of a 16 year old Fiat, I'd fit right in....
I don't imagine that running an event for over-boosted nineties turbo-nutter stuff is any cheaper than it is for top-end exotica - in fact its probably more expensive, as the possibility of an off or a sumpful of oil on the racing line must be far higher with cars that were never meant to be doing 160+ and for drivers that aren't used to the speeds - I can imagine that a 458 at 160 feels like my car does at 100
Hi all,
Thanks for the feedback.
The price is a function of the significant cost to now run the event successfully and safely with the best safety crew, insurance and the infrastructure around this. We also have between 50 and 60 cars not 100 for clarity.
As for the surface, we have it double swept each time which ensures minimum stone chips or none if you adhere to the guidelines and keep away from the car directly in front. We do also space cars to assist with this and many people stick on some protective tape on wheel arches etc also.
In terms of number of runs, virtually unlimited in the time allowed, it's not just a few.
Hope to see you at a Vmax200 event and wish you all well.
Thanks for the feedback.
The price is a function of the significant cost to now run the event successfully and safely with the best safety crew, insurance and the infrastructure around this. We also have between 50 and 60 cars not 100 for clarity.
As for the surface, we have it double swept each time which ensures minimum stone chips or none if you adhere to the guidelines and keep away from the car directly in front. We do also space cars to assist with this and many people stick on some protective tape on wheel arches etc also.
In terms of number of runs, virtually unlimited in the time allowed, it's not just a few.
Hope to see you at a Vmax200 event and wish you all well.
Edited by CraigVmax on Tuesday 26th January 17:46
That of course would be your answer Craig, it's the easiest and most convenient one to give.
2015 - £250 per car x 60 cars = £15k revenue
2016 - £795 per car x 60 cars = £47.7k revenue
Has your profit margin remained static or are you suggesting your costs have risen by the same amount as the increase you expect your punters to pay? It cost less than £15k a few months ago but it's now costing treble that? What costs have changed, insurance or rental?
All it takes is a phone call but I'm pretty sure you can rent out Bruntingthorpe for a few hundred quid, okay, not to the same extent as a full on 60 car 'track day' but you are a regular customer and I suspect you already have a favourable rate with the owners of Bruntingthorpe to rent it out for the day.
The figures and your profit margins of course are none of my business but it's not just a small 5-10% increase in price we are talking about here, it's huge, it's more than trebled in price. What other event trebles or quadruples in price overnight? Considering £200-£300 was already an expensive price. The MLR forum used to run a similar event at RAF Marham, that was under £100 a car. Santapod is under £40 a car.
Sorry, but I think you need a sense of perspective here and a reality check. Sure, your Bugatti Veyron, 918 and P1 owners will no doubt fork out £800 for a day at Bruntingthorpe but your RS/AMG/M/GTR/911 owners most certainly will not.
Just my opinion of course and I'll say no more, I just think this is snobbery in its finest form. I already had that impression with the auto vivendi annual membership packages but this has just sealed it for me. You're clearly trying to create a club for the rich, forgetting that most petrol heads are average Joes with sub £100k cars.
Good luck in your venture but I'm sure you pis*ed off a lot more people than me this afternoon. (There was no explanation for the huge hike, you just threw it out there like it was completely normal)
Over and out.
2015 - £250 per car x 60 cars = £15k revenue
2016 - £795 per car x 60 cars = £47.7k revenue
Has your profit margin remained static or are you suggesting your costs have risen by the same amount as the increase you expect your punters to pay? It cost less than £15k a few months ago but it's now costing treble that? What costs have changed, insurance or rental?
All it takes is a phone call but I'm pretty sure you can rent out Bruntingthorpe for a few hundred quid, okay, not to the same extent as a full on 60 car 'track day' but you are a regular customer and I suspect you already have a favourable rate with the owners of Bruntingthorpe to rent it out for the day.
The figures and your profit margins of course are none of my business but it's not just a small 5-10% increase in price we are talking about here, it's huge, it's more than trebled in price. What other event trebles or quadruples in price overnight? Considering £200-£300 was already an expensive price. The MLR forum used to run a similar event at RAF Marham, that was under £100 a car. Santapod is under £40 a car.
Sorry, but I think you need a sense of perspective here and a reality check. Sure, your Bugatti Veyron, 918 and P1 owners will no doubt fork out £800 for a day at Bruntingthorpe but your RS/AMG/M/GTR/911 owners most certainly will not.
Just my opinion of course and I'll say no more, I just think this is snobbery in its finest form. I already had that impression with the auto vivendi annual membership packages but this has just sealed it for me. You're clearly trying to create a club for the rich, forgetting that most petrol heads are average Joes with sub £100k cars.
Good luck in your venture but I'm sure you pis*ed off a lot more people than me this afternoon. (There was no explanation for the huge hike, you just threw it out there like it was completely normal)
Over and out.
Hi Leo,
Thanks for your comments. Given the mail you received your numbers should be a little different but also the event was £395 not £295 last year. I can assure you the runway is not a few hundred pounds to hire.
We strive to run a great fun and very safe event, we are petrolheads also and love the AMG's and RS's as much as the other toys that turn up, look at my profile and you'll see I've had a fair few of them myself. Snobs we're not, but we are running a business that needs to cover costs to continue. We've had a number of signups today which is great. I have also mailed you separately. I'm sorry you're unhappy though and wish you well.
Thanks for your comments. Given the mail you received your numbers should be a little different but also the event was £395 not £295 last year. I can assure you the runway is not a few hundred pounds to hire.
We strive to run a great fun and very safe event, we are petrolheads also and love the AMG's and RS's as much as the other toys that turn up, look at my profile and you'll see I've had a fair few of them myself. Snobs we're not, but we are running a business that needs to cover costs to continue. We've had a number of signups today which is great. I have also mailed you separately. I'm sorry you're unhappy though and wish you well.
Leo-RS said:
That of course would be your answer Craig, it's the easiest and most convenient one to give.
2015 - £250 per car x 60 cars = £15k revenue
2016 - £795 per car x 60 cars = £47.7k revenue
....
Sorry, but I think you need a sense of perspective here and a reality check. Sure, your Bugatti Veyron, 918 and P1 owners will no doubt fork out £800 for a day at Bruntingthorpe but your RS/AMG/M/GTR/911 owners most certainly will not.
That is a massive hike in revenue, and as you say no real explanation given.2015 - £250 per car x 60 cars = £15k revenue
2016 - £795 per car x 60 cars = £47.7k revenue
....
Sorry, but I think you need a sense of perspective here and a reality check. Sure, your Bugatti Veyron, 918 and P1 owners will no doubt fork out £800 for a day at Bruntingthorpe but your RS/AMG/M/GTR/911 owners most certainly will not.
You're spot on about owners not forking out for it. Whilst I can afford £800 for a day out it has priced me out as I can't justify it, when I could have a driving weekend away for the similar money.
I get that Auto Vivendi is as much of a social club for the elite as it is a car club, from the price hike I gather VMax is going the same way.
Shame really as I was looking forward to signing up for my first Vmax this year. I even bought the car some new wheels, tyres and brakes in preparation
Fair enough Craig,
I was obviously out with my most recent figures there and did not realise 2015 prices were at £395, shows you how long ago it was when I attended, £200 or so.
Just re-read your email, okay, 25 cheaper places at each event on a first come first serve basis for those that have been before, fair enough.
If it works, it works, I guess you will find out over the next few months.
I was obviously out with my most recent figures there and did not realise 2015 prices were at £395, shows you how long ago it was when I attended, £200 or so.
Just re-read your email, okay, 25 cheaper places at each event on a first come first serve basis for those that have been before, fair enough.
If it works, it works, I guess you will find out over the next few months.
The instant flip to Craig being the bad guy on here is surprising to me.
Look at a Vmax event a few years ago and look at it now - pissing in the trees, a dodgy burger van with guaranteed syphilis and a fairly normal selection of supercars.
Now the event has nice loos, a seating area, live TV coverage on screens with timing of the runs, a decent food selection, a much higher net worth clientele, yes it has evolved from what it was but all that stuff isn't free and massively improves the experience for those attending, in fact making it feel like they've got better value for their money.
I've also heard that the cost is actually over £10k to hire the venue for the day now. Brunters obviously see there's more money to be made from Vmax so what option does Craig have? And as he's mentioned, it's actually only gone up by £100 for the regulars.
Look at a Vmax event a few years ago and look at it now - pissing in the trees, a dodgy burger van with guaranteed syphilis and a fairly normal selection of supercars.
Now the event has nice loos, a seating area, live TV coverage on screens with timing of the runs, a decent food selection, a much higher net worth clientele, yes it has evolved from what it was but all that stuff isn't free and massively improves the experience for those attending, in fact making it feel like they've got better value for their money.
I've also heard that the cost is actually over £10k to hire the venue for the day now. Brunters obviously see there's more money to be made from Vmax so what option does Craig have? And as he's mentioned, it's actually only gone up by £100 for the regulars.
Beefmeister said:
Look at a Vmax event a few years ago and look at it now - pissing in the trees, a dodgy burger van with guaranteed syphilis and a fairly normal selection of supercars.
Now the event has nice loos, a seating area, live TV coverage on screens with timing of the runs, a decent food selection, a much higher net worth clientele...
That's the nail on the head there.Now the event has nice loos, a seating area, live TV coverage on screens with timing of the runs, a decent food selection, a much higher net worth clientele...
When I first went (10 years ago now), it was £150. The last time I went (5 years now), it was £175.
So I nearly fell of my pew yesterday at £795.
But, as Beefmeister says, it's clearly changed at a lot. It's now very "corporate" and it's a business. So it's no longer that sort of day I'm interested in.
That's understandable. I just hope that people can see that in a way Craig's hand has been forced on this.
Yes it was a more 'basic' event before, but as it grew in popularity the level of car also grew and as such the people attending started to expect more in the way of facilities. So of course Craig had to say yes, it's a business after all. Sadly I think Brunters also saw the level of car increasing and have repeatedly put the price up each time.
You can go to cheaper events, but given what I've seen, when there's an unfortunate (and very rare) accident at a Vmax event I certainly wouldn't want to go to one where any aspect of safety has been skimped on. I know VMax uses the very best in the business, the same guys who worked on Top Gear and lots of high end movies, so again they don't come cheap.
Yes it was a more 'basic' event before, but as it grew in popularity the level of car also grew and as such the people attending started to expect more in the way of facilities. So of course Craig had to say yes, it's a business after all. Sadly I think Brunters also saw the level of car increasing and have repeatedly put the price up each time.
You can go to cheaper events, but given what I've seen, when there's an unfortunate (and very rare) accident at a Vmax event I certainly wouldn't want to go to one where any aspect of safety has been skimped on. I know VMax uses the very best in the business, the same guys who worked on Top Gear and lots of high end movies, so again they don't come cheap.
Beefmeister said:
The instant flip to Craig being the bad guy on here is surprising to me.
Look at a Vmax event a few years ago and look at it now - pissing in the trees, a dodgy burger van with guaranteed syphilis and a fairly normal selection of supercars.
Now the event has nice loos, a seating area, live TV coverage on screens with timing of the runs, a decent food selection, a much higher net worth clientele, yes it has evolved from what it was but all that stuff isn't free and massively improves the experience for those attending, in fact making it feel like they've got better value for their money.
Are you a working class Bob in his Evo, a middle class Malcolm in his AMG or a stuck up Cyril in his 918?Look at a Vmax event a few years ago and look at it now - pissing in the trees, a dodgy burger van with guaranteed syphilis and a fairly normal selection of supercars.
Now the event has nice loos, a seating area, live TV coverage on screens with timing of the runs, a decent food selection, a much higher net worth clientele, yes it has evolved from what it was but all that stuff isn't free and massively improves the experience for those attending, in fact making it feel like they've got better value for their money.
The fact you have mentioned higher net worth clientele above, I'm leaning towards a Cyril? What's your net worth got to do with it and why have you mentioned it, why would that make the day anymore enjoyable or expensive to run?
Car enthusiasts and true genuine petrolheads that know the ins and outs of motoring come from all walks of life, Bob at the bottom probably knows a lot more about his Evo than Cyril does of his 918. What makes an exciting event is a gathering of all, not just a select few 'higher net worth clientele' in their million $ machinery - Infact, there's probably nothing more infuriating than sitting listening to Cyril and his chums talk about their million £ bonuses whilst sitting on the bonnets of their 918's, P1's and Veyron's.
Okay, the above view is probably a bit of a generalization but without Mr Evo, Mr RS, MR AMG, MR GTR at these events, then what will it become? A day out for millionaires who know very little about cars?
At £800, it's squeezed the working and middle classes out of it? It's a day at a disused bumpy runway, not a weekend in the highlands of Scotland, only those that can afford to throw away £800 will attend this event now.
I know you used to be able to hire Bruntingthorpe for £50+VAT per hour per car, that was 5 or 6yrs ago now mind but even if the event does cost £10k to hire for the day (Unlimited number of cars and an agreed all in one fee for a regular customer) then even at 2015 prices of £395 x 60 cars, that's £24k.
I can see the 25 cheaper spaces at each event filling up okay, I think last years £395 was right on the limit of happiness/worth though, £495 is a consideration, but £795, nope, unless you have £££ burning holes in pockets then can't see many working class/middle class typed folk attending.
Edited by Leo-RS on Wednesday 27th January 12:28
Edited by Leo-RS on Wednesday 27th January 12:35
acr_nick said:
just out of curiosity is there another event like this run in the country?
Up until a few years ago, the MLR forum used to run a 30-130 and top speed event at RAF Marham, (2.8km vs Bruntingthorpe 3km)The quickest cars in the country used to attend these events, going from 30-130 in 4-5secs and onto over 200. Proper timing gear, leaderboards, security and facilities (RAF base) - This was run over 2 days, a Saturday and a Sunday, Saturday being Japanese only (Evo/Impreza/GTR) Sunday being everything. Cost for the day was under £100 and although there weren't Bugatti Veyrons on display, there were the quickest accelerating cars in the country, cars that would make a Veyron or a P1 look slow. Working class guys too, no Cecil's or Cyril's anywhere
More recently, yes, there is an event that has just started called Terminal Velocity (Search for the page on facebook) Its based at RAF Woodbridge in Suffolk and is a 2.2 mile runway (longer than Bruntingthorpe but I think its restricted to 1.8 miles) - The cost is between £99 and £150 dependent on time of booking. You will find details of 2016 events on their facebook page.
Edited by Leo-RS on Wednesday 27th January 12:33
Leo-RS said:
Are you a working class Bob in his Evo, a middle class Malcolm in his AMG or a stuck up Cyril in his 918?
The fact you have mentioned higher net worth clientele above, I'm leaning towards a Cyril? What's your net worth got to do with it and why have you mentioned it, why would that make the day anymore enjoyable or expensive to run?
The fact you have mentioned higher net worth clientele above, I'm leaning towards a Cyril? What's your net worth got to do with it and why have you mentioned it, why would that make the day anymore enjoyable or expensive to run?
I'm very much a working class Bob in his Skoda Yeti actually! My point about the higher net worth individuals is that they will generally expect a higher level of quality and services at an event they attend. If you drive a 918 Spider, you may know everything about it and be a real petrolhead, but you probably don't want to piss in a bush or eat an offalburger for lunch. In fact really, most people don't like pissing in bushes or eating crap food whether they're in an Evo or a LaFerrari.
These things cost money, lots of it. It's infuriating that people keep trotting out those numbers. Oh well it took £24k and the track cost £10k so that fat cat Craig has pocketed £14k! Blimey, he must have gold teeth and the Queen on speed dial!!
What about the costs of the people there, the services, everything else? Also, Craig runs Vmax as part of Auto Vivendi now, which is his livelihood. What exactly is wrong with him making some profit (which I can assure you is NOT £14k, would be surprised if its £4k!) off an event that is run a few times a year?
Edited by Beefmeister on Wednesday 27th January 13:11
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