Winter tyres vol 2

[AnotherGareth]

jon- said:

They're the tyre I've been telling people to make for years now, apparently quotes off tyrereviews were actually used in the development brief which is pretty cool to a tyre geek like me

The videos are obviously great marketing but without knowing more about the comparison tyres it's impossible to judge whether they're a significant advance over what's already available. The comparison with 'average for all-season tyres' could be misleading if they've using the nastier end of the market to drag down 'average' figures, nor is it clear whether the comparison winter tyre is one of the major brands. Michelin aren't presenting comparisons with their own summer or winter tyres, which is pretty telling.

How do they compare with the Hankook Optimo 4S or the Vredestein Quatrac 3 or 5, since both of these could also be thought of as summer tyres that are also winter rated.

[jon-]

AnotherGareth said:

jon- said:

They're the tyre I've been telling people to make for years now, apparently quotes off tyrereviews were actually used in the development brief which is pretty cool to a tyre geek like me

The videos are obviously great marketing but without knowing more about the comparison tyres it's impossible to judge whether they're a significant advance over what's already available. The comparison with 'average for all-season tyres' could be misleading if they've using the nastier end of the market to drag down 'average' figures, nor is it clear whether the comparison winter tyre is one of the major brands. Michelin aren't presenting comparisons with their own summer or winter tyres, which is pretty telling.

How do they compare with the Hankook Optimo 4S or the Vredestein Quatrac 3 or 5, since both of these could also be thought of as summer tyres that are also winter rated.

The average of the all seasons were:

Vredestein Quatrac 5 / Lite
Hankook Optimo 4S
Pirelli Cinturato AllSeason
Kelber Quadraxer
Bridgestone A001
Goodyear Vector 4Seasons

So they didn't shy away from the best.

I'd say the closest tyre is the Bridgestone in balance, but that's still fairly siped so will have all the usual dry / wet disadvantages.

Obviously it's not quite as big a jump as Michelin make out, but it is a BIG step forward for climates like ours, where we're 98% dry / wet.

[Munter]

Mr2Mike said:

tenohfive said:

I don't put too much by the 7 degrees comment but given that the reason winters grip better in low temps is because of the compound being different i.e. it remains flexible, and I'd imagine (perhaps jon can comment here) that most winters use a similar compound then the basic drop off point of grip in relation to temperature should be roughly the same across many similar winter tyres.

Edited by tenohfive on Wednesday 4th March 12:48

I certainly wouldn't deny that summer tyres offer less grip as temperatures start heading toward freezing, and that winter tyres will offer better grip in such conditions. My beef is simply that some arbitrary number has been pulled out of someones bottom and that it's now regularly quoted as the point at which summer tyres stop working.

That's usually just a poor interpretation of someone saying "Winter tyres perform better under 7 degrees". I.e. The winter tyre performs better when temperatures are below 7 degrees compared to when the temperature is above 7 degrees.

I've never seen anybody say summer tyres stop working at 7 degrees.

[jon-]

Munter said:

That's usually just a poor interpretation of someone saying "Winter tyres perform better under 7 degrees". I.e. The winter tyre performs better when temperatures are below 7 degrees compared to when the temperature is above 7 degrees.

I've never seen anybody say summer tyres stop working at 7 degrees.

Sadly the message coming from the tyre companies is you're better off on winters over summers at any condition under 7c.

Sadly the real cross over point between two premium products in the dry is certainly around freezing, and in the wet not much higher.

[tenohfive]

jon- said:

I must have written that article badly, or you skimmed it

The CrossClimate offers 100% of the snow performance under braking and traction of a Alpin 5. The Alpin 5 is a full winter tyre!

The Alpin (and likely the Vector) will offer higher lateral grip, but to get us out of the car park and onto the treated roads, the CrossClimate will do just fine.

Video of TUV testing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s27h58WZLhc&li...

I got confused by these bits:

tyrereviews said:

the compromise is is weaker snow and ice handling

tyrereviews said:

The snow traction test was limited to an uphill start

It's hardly conclusive testing in terms of snow and ice performance by anyone's standards. So personally I'd want to see more testing in those conditions - and real world testing etc - before my interest picked up.

[jon-]

tenohfive said:

It's hardly conclusive testing in terms of snow and ice performance by anyone's standards. So personally I'd want to see more testing in those conditions - and real world testing etc - before my interest picked up.

The TUV testing is independant. 100% of an Alpin 5 under snow traction and braking.

For me, for a run around, that's all that's important in the snow.

[SkinnyPete]

Taking mine off tomorrow, its been to warm recently and forecast shows good weather ahead.

Its been fun but I look forward to rolling on 19's!

[Patrick Bateman]

8-9 degrees and damp back roads back from work this evening really exposed the winters, absolutely all over the place.

Really notice the extra movement in the tread blocks when it's that bit warmer, could feel the car pitching and rolling quite aggressively through a reasonably quick chicane, arse wanting to step out without much provocation at all.

[andyps]

Patrick Bateman said:

8-9 degrees and damp back roads back from work this evening really exposed the winters, absolutely all over the place.

Really notice the extra movement in the tread blocks when it's that bit warmer, could feel the car pitching and rolling quite aggressively through a reasonably quick chicane, arse wanting to step out without much provocation at all.

How do the tread blocks of tyres affect the pitch and roll of the car? That is down to suspension with at most the slight extra compression of 8mm of rubber that is slightly softer than 7mm of summer rubber. I'm inclined to think it was more likely the type of dampness and road surface than the tyres being all over the place. What car was that on?

[Patrick Bateman]

M5.

I tend to take that chicane at a decent speed any time I'm on that road (first time doing it with these winter tyres on though) and I've never felt anywhere near as much movement in the car as that, felt like it had slinkys for springs.

[andyps]

Patrick Bateman said:

M5.

I tend to take that chicane at a decent speed any time I'm on that road (first time doing it with these winter tyres on though) and I've never felt anywhere near as much movement in the car as that, felt like it had slinkys for springs.

Get your springs checked then - and buy decent winter tyres for next year

[Patrick Bateman]

Fairly sure there's nothing wrong with the springs, the lack of grip was apparent the whole way home with it being mild.

[tenohfive]

jon- said:

tenohfive said:

It's hardly conclusive testing in terms of snow and ice performance by anyone's standards. So personally I'd want to see more testing in those conditions - and real world testing etc - before my interest picked up.

The TUV testing is independant. 100% of an Alpin 5 under snow traction and braking.

For me, for a run around, that's all that's important in the snow.

You know your tyres Jon, but I still wouldn't buy without seeing then driven in real world conditions, on real roads and seeing how they stack up against their peers in conditions that they are going to face in practice.

I'm not saying they'll be rubbish. Just that I don't get excited about tyres easily.

[MC Bodge]

SkinnyPete said:

Its been fun but I look forward to rolling on 19's!

rolling? or just skittering over bumps?

[ohtari]

On monday we had snow, and I struggled to get out of the driveway. Today it was 10 degrees at 7am, how do you win?

I'm keeping the winters on for the rest of the month at least

[Bill]

Munter said:

That's usually just a poor interpretation of someone saying "Winter tyres perform better under 7 degrees". I.e. The winter tyre performs better when temperatures are below 7 degrees compared to when the temperature is above 7 degrees.

I've never seen anybody say summer tyres stop working at 7 degrees.

it's a pointer rather than a definite line. IME T1Rs tail off about 7℃, and ContiSport 3s more like 3ish. Similarly Pirelli winters seemed fine up to 12ish.

[blueST]

Patrick Bateman said:

Fairly sure there's nothing wrong with the springs, the lack of grip was apparent the whole way home with it being mild.

I'm with you on this. On long sweeping bends, like you get on slip roads. My winters give a weird sort of springy feeling where the front rear feel like they are squirming around. It's not a loss of grip, just a loss of that planted feeling the summers have. I've got used to it now and for the type of car and driving it doesn't matter.

[JagXJR]

Patrick Bateman said:

8-9 degrees and damp back roads back from work this evening really exposed the winters, absolutely all over the place.

Really notice the extra movement in the tread blocks when it's that bit warmer, could feel the car pitching and rolling quite aggressively through a reasonably quick chicane, arse wanting to step out without much provocation at all.

Even my budget winters don't do that. Suspect your issue is with the car or the driver.

[JagXJR]

They do have a less planted, squirmy feeling to them. Mine feel quite vague at high motorway speeds.

Never had an issue with lack of grip, but then again it is 4 wheel drive. Even full throttle on corners in kickdown it just squirms a bit and then just goes in the required direction.

Of course I don't have the power of an M5 though. I would suspect even Summer tyres would struggle on a damp, bendy road given enough throttle?

[FiF]

Presumably people fit winters because, for one reason, they don't buy into the 'just drive to the conditions' song of the anti winters crowd.

But then they complain when conditions aren't ideal for the tyres they're now on coupled with they clearly aren't driving to the conditions.

These things aren't magic you know. If there was some magical design and construction which maximised performance on every axis of the spider graph then there's a valid complaint. But there isn't such a magic wand.

So generally put it down to drivers having excessive expectations or just pushing the boundaries without much thought going on.