Winter tyres vol 2
Discussion
wemorgan said:
jon- said:
I don't doubt what you say, but on a winter tyre with +4mm of tread depth, you ARE giving away nearly 20% dry braking.
I however have done the tests myself.
Monkeylegend said:
I do drive quite defensively, but on the odd occasion when I have needed to brake more urgently I have not had any issues. I really do think based on my experience that winters are much better all round than people give them credit for.
The fact that it is not illegal to run them all year would tend to support this.
Again, I don't doubt you've never had a problem, but in interests of full disclosure I feel I should point the deficit out. After All, we're all fitting winter tyres as we want the best tyres for the conditions, and given my line of work I've been fortunate enough to test these things both independently, and objectively. Something a lot of people aren't fortunate enough to do.The fact that it is not illegal to run them all year would tend to support this.
Oh, and FWIW it's not illegal to run around on chinese ditch finders. Doesn't mean we all should.
Edited by Ollie_M on Wednesday 20th January 15:27
jon- said:
I'm not sure the source from this chart, but I'm fairly sure it's a tyre manufacturer, who haven't referenced their data.
I however have done the tests myself. http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Article/Is-there-a-tr...
Oh my days, your graph work is dreadful. Talk about mis-representing the data!I however have done the tests myself. http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Article/Is-there-a-tr...
jon- said:
I'm not sure the source from this chart, but I'm fairly sure it's a tyre manufacturer, who haven't referenced their data.
I however have done the tests myself.
The two sets of data show similar trends. Which given the different tyres, tarmac, car and other conditions is quite reasonable.I however have done the tests myself.
The Met Office shows that the Midlands has rain of >1mm for 30% of the days and average temp of 10C or less for 60% of the time.
The data can always be spun around.
Edited by Ollie_M on Wednesday 20th January 15:28
Krikkit said:
jon- said:
I'm not sure the source from this chart, but I'm fairly sure it's a tyre manufacturer, who haven't referenced their data.
I however have done the tests myself.
Oh my days, your graph work is dreadful. Talk about mis-representing the data!I however have done the tests myself.
Edited by Ollie_M on Wednesday 20th January 15:27
jon- said:
Oh, and FWIW it's not illegal to run around on chinese ditch finders. Doesn't mean we all should.
I was only really making that point in the context of it being illegal in some European countries not to run winter tyres over the winter months. If it was thought they were unsuitable for summer use over here I am sure the Govt of the day would legislate against them.I have no feelings as to how others view them, they suit my driving style and needs but I accept that is not the case for anyone else necessarily.
Munter said:
Your maths is good. But your conclusion is wrong because you are again ignoring the context. (You got upset about context. If you start down that path, be prepared to include others context).
"On a dry sunny day in a 40 limit on a gentle incline I might spend 1% of my time doing that. On summers in snow I might spend 99% doing that."
Now that has the context in it.
Which makes your statement:
"So what you've clearly said is you spend between 1% and 49% of the time driving assessing your vehicles speed and road condition when driving on winters, as opposed to 99% of the time doing the same on summer tyres, when driving on snow."
Out of context.
See if you can edit it to get it into context.
I've no reason to edit anything, Feel free to add context to suit yourself into my last statement^^^^^. Result is the same."On a dry sunny day in a 40 limit on a gentle incline I might spend 1% of my time doing that. On summers in snow I might spend 99% doing that."
Now that has the context in it.
Which makes your statement:
"So what you've clearly said is you spend between 1% and 49% of the time driving assessing your vehicles speed and road condition when driving on winters, as opposed to 99% of the time doing the same on summer tyres, when driving on snow."
Out of context.
See if you can edit it to get it into context.
For information, I'm not upset about context or anything else. I'm enjoying some of the points put forward both for and against by various posters as I do think it's a genuinely interesting topic.
You may find that it's not me suggesting using interpretive dance or calling people trolling weirdos.
Edited by f1nn on Wednesday 20th January 15:49
I think many of these 'debates' re Winter/cold weather tyres come about because most drivers in the uk have a 'sample of one' type of tyre that they have experienced.
I was dubious about winter tyres until i tried them about 5 years ago. I was a doing 35-40k miles a year and being stranded or immobile affected my wallet.
Since then, i've used these tyres and know their benefits. I've bought them ever since.
I don't expect to come across a life threatening scenario of ice, snow or slush every day when driving them in winter, but when you hit a low friction surface, it's good to know that you have the best possible chance of getting through the situation.
I've driven up an ice covered hill in a rear wheel drive car before on winter tyres. The family i was visiting had to park their car at the bottom of the slope.
Why do some people not get the fact that day to day, in non-extreme conditions, cold weather and summer tyres will feel the same? It's the extremes where they make the biggest difference ? Deep water, slush, cold temperatures, ice and snow all fall into my definition of 'extremes'.
If you have never used them - i don't see how you can preach about never using them. You are not qualified to discuss it in my view. Just because you haven't crashed in a fireball is as much down to luck than any judgement or the usual nonsense of 'driving to the conditions'. If you hit black ice at 5mph it can be lethal. And you cannot see that.
I was dubious about winter tyres until i tried them about 5 years ago. I was a doing 35-40k miles a year and being stranded or immobile affected my wallet.
Since then, i've used these tyres and know their benefits. I've bought them ever since.
I don't expect to come across a life threatening scenario of ice, snow or slush every day when driving them in winter, but when you hit a low friction surface, it's good to know that you have the best possible chance of getting through the situation.
I've driven up an ice covered hill in a rear wheel drive car before on winter tyres. The family i was visiting had to park their car at the bottom of the slope.
Why do some people not get the fact that day to day, in non-extreme conditions, cold weather and summer tyres will feel the same? It's the extremes where they make the biggest difference ? Deep water, slush, cold temperatures, ice and snow all fall into my definition of 'extremes'.
If you have never used them - i don't see how you can preach about never using them. You are not qualified to discuss it in my view. Just because you haven't crashed in a fireball is as much down to luck than any judgement or the usual nonsense of 'driving to the conditions'. If you hit black ice at 5mph it can be lethal. And you cannot see that.
All of that ^^^^^ is fair enough.
One genuine question though, do you think you would have tried winter tyres if, you had never once got stuck or become immobile?
Actually, another question. Assuming that both winters and summers "feel" roughly the same under normalish conditions, what sort of temperature would you say YOU notice an improvement on winters?
Also, you mention rear drive, have you experienced winters on FWD and RWD? And if so would you say one benefitted from winters more than the other?
One genuine question though, do you think you would have tried winter tyres if, you had never once got stuck or become immobile?
Actually, another question. Assuming that both winters and summers "feel" roughly the same under normalish conditions, what sort of temperature would you say YOU notice an improvement on winters?
Also, you mention rear drive, have you experienced winters on FWD and RWD? And if so would you say one benefitted from winters more than the other?
sly fox said:
I think many of these 'debates' re Winter/cold weather tyres come about because most drivers in the uk have a 'sample of one' type of tyre that they have experienced.
I was dubious about winter tyres until i tried them about 5 years ago. I was a doing 35-40k miles a year and being stranded or immobile affected my wallet.
Since then, i've used these tyres and know their benefits. I've bought them ever since.
I don't expect to come across a life threatening scenario of ice, snow or slush every day when driving them in winter, but when you hit a low friction surface, it's good to know that you have the best possible chance of getting through the situation.
I've driven up an ice covered hill in a rear wheel drive car before on winter tyres. The family i was visiting had to park their car at the bottom of the slope.
Why do some people not get the fact that day to day, in non-extreme conditions, cold weather and summer tyres will feel the same? It's the extremes where they make the biggest difference ? Deep water, slush, cold temperatures, ice and snow all fall into my definition of 'extremes'.
If you have never used them - i don't see how you can preach about never using them. You are not qualified to discuss it in my view. Just because you haven't crashed in a fireball is as much down to luck than any judgement or the usual nonsense of 'driving to the conditions'. If you hit black ice at 5mph it can be lethal. And you cannot see that.
Agreed - only a trolling weirdo would pretend not to understand the basics. (As I said before I'd not dream of calling someone I don't know that, but on this occasion I make an exception).I was dubious about winter tyres until i tried them about 5 years ago. I was a doing 35-40k miles a year and being stranded or immobile affected my wallet.
Since then, i've used these tyres and know their benefits. I've bought them ever since.
I don't expect to come across a life threatening scenario of ice, snow or slush every day when driving them in winter, but when you hit a low friction surface, it's good to know that you have the best possible chance of getting through the situation.
I've driven up an ice covered hill in a rear wheel drive car before on winter tyres. The family i was visiting had to park their car at the bottom of the slope.
Why do some people not get the fact that day to day, in non-extreme conditions, cold weather and summer tyres will feel the same? It's the extremes where they make the biggest difference ? Deep water, slush, cold temperatures, ice and snow all fall into my definition of 'extremes'.
If you have never used them - i don't see how you can preach about never using them. You are not qualified to discuss it in my view. Just because you haven't crashed in a fireball is as much down to luck than any judgement or the usual nonsense of 'driving to the conditions'. If you hit black ice at 5mph it can be lethal. And you cannot see that.
f1nn said:
Munter said:
Your maths is good. But your conclusion is wrong because you are again ignoring the context. (You got upset about context. If you start down that path, be prepared to include others context).
"On a dry sunny day in a 40 limit on a gentle incline I might spend 1% of my time doing that. On summers in snow I might spend 99% doing that."
Now that has the context in it.
Which makes your statement:
"So what you've clearly said is you spend between 1% and 49% of the time driving assessing your vehicles speed and road condition when driving on winters, as opposed to 99% of the time doing the same on summer tyres, when driving on snow."
Out of context.
See if you can edit it to get it into context.
I've no reason to edit anything, Feel free to add context to suit yourself into my last statement^^^^^. Result is the same."On a dry sunny day in a 40 limit on a gentle incline I might spend 1% of my time doing that. On summers in snow I might spend 99% doing that."
Now that has the context in it.
Which makes your statement:
"So what you've clearly said is you spend between 1% and 49% of the time driving assessing your vehicles speed and road condition when driving on winters, as opposed to 99% of the time doing the same on summer tyres, when driving on snow."
Out of context.
See if you can edit it to get it into context.
f1nn said:
All of that ^^^^^ is fair enough.
One genuine question though, do you think you would have tried winter tyres if, you had never once got stuck or become immobile?
Actually, another question. Assuming that both winters and summers "feel" roughly the same under normalish conditions, what sort of temperature would you say YOU notice an improvement on winters?
Also, you mention rear drive, have you experienced winters on FWD and RWD? And if so would you say one benefitted from winters more than the other?
I live in a part of the country that has more winter weather than most and I've been using winters for a few years now.One genuine question though, do you think you would have tried winter tyres if, you had never once got stuck or become immobile?
Actually, another question. Assuming that both winters and summers "feel" roughly the same under normalish conditions, what sort of temperature would you say YOU notice an improvement on winters?
Also, you mention rear drive, have you experienced winters on FWD and RWD? And if so would you say one benefitted from winters more than the other?
I'm not sure there is a definitive temperature where I feel a difference, that would mean driving the same road twice on each tyre to have a comparison. Having said that, I can say that in the cold (not going to get into specific temperatures because I haven't measured on a graph due to be a normal human being and they can vary by 5 degrees between the start and end of my journey) the winters give me more confidence.
This is more noticeable in the wet than the dry, I would say in the dry there is very little between the two to the point it's negligible regardless of temperature. Sadly we rarely get it cold and dry in the winter in the UK, typically the roads are wet or greasy. The winters are a significant improvement on cold greasy roads.
Regarding FWD and RWD, this is my first year with winter tyres on a FWD as I've had RWD for the last 7 years or so.
I used to be happy driving a FWD in the winter on any tyres but sadly things have changed because car companies like to stick massive wheels on little cars and that never works well in snow. An example here would be an old Ford KA and Nissan Micra I owned, I could go anywhere in the winter with those things on any tyres and get through some serious snow. My current FWD has typically modern over sized rubber band tyres, I tried not using winters for a while last year and it was ok until the snow hit at which point it was less than happy.
With RWD the difference is far greater. In the cold and dry, it's not much different but cold and wet is noticeably better. In the snow it's night and day, in fact I compare the winters in the snow to the summers in the rain in terms of driving, the ability to get up steep hills and pass stranded 4x4's on summers was hysterical. I was genuinely shocked the first time I tried them on snow. Another example here is when I took the winters off a bit early and then we had a week of snow, I actually couldn't get to work in the RWD car although it's worth adding I could get there in the FWD car once I stole the OH's little Twingo with it's skinny tyres.
I've only ever used Continental Winters and I mostly use Continental summers so I am comparing like with like rather than good quality summers and cheap winters as it typical.
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