Winter tyres vol 2
Discussion
My experience of the last few really bad spells of snow in the south of England suggests to me that:
1. The local authorities are not geared up to respond to sudden dumps of snow and hence roads are not cleared/gritted sufficiently.
2. The majority of drivers don't have enough experience of driving in very slippery/snowy conditions and don't know how to cope.
3. The biggest problem as a result of the above is cars blocking roads because they can't get any traction or get stuck on inclines.
An experienced driver on summer tyres in the snow may be able to use their skill to get going or not get stuck in the first place, but even the 'summer tyre driving gods' would have to admit that if you go out when there's a few inches of snow on the ground, particularly to an unfamiliar place, down unfamiliar roads, there is a chance your tyres and your skill will let you down. This is where all-weather/winter tyres come in.
All the discussion about how winter tyres handle at speed when there isn't any snow is irrelevant. This is not what we need to be concerned about. It's all about being able to set off/not get stuck/make reasonable progress when there's sufficient snow/slush/ice on the roads to make it difficult to gain traction.
I have my winter tyres on now. Like all winter tyres, they have shortcomings in mild weather. They will allow me to get where I need to be in the event we get snow. Enough said.
1. The local authorities are not geared up to respond to sudden dumps of snow and hence roads are not cleared/gritted sufficiently.
2. The majority of drivers don't have enough experience of driving in very slippery/snowy conditions and don't know how to cope.
3. The biggest problem as a result of the above is cars blocking roads because they can't get any traction or get stuck on inclines.
An experienced driver on summer tyres in the snow may be able to use their skill to get going or not get stuck in the first place, but even the 'summer tyre driving gods' would have to admit that if you go out when there's a few inches of snow on the ground, particularly to an unfamiliar place, down unfamiliar roads, there is a chance your tyres and your skill will let you down. This is where all-weather/winter tyres come in.
All the discussion about how winter tyres handle at speed when there isn't any snow is irrelevant. This is not what we need to be concerned about. It's all about being able to set off/not get stuck/make reasonable progress when there's sufficient snow/slush/ice on the roads to make it difficult to gain traction.
I have my winter tyres on now. Like all winter tyres, they have shortcomings in mild weather. They will allow me to get where I need to be in the event we get snow. Enough said.
jon- said:
Pains me to say this giving how much I push winter tyres, but I've winter tyres for both my cars, and this year it hasn't been worth fitting them as we've just not had the cold temperatures at the times I drive (just north of London, don't commute)
I agree. The Pirelli Sottozeros on one car have been fine but overkill for the conditions so far.The Michelin Pilot Sports on the other car I drive have been perfectly capable in our recent conditions.
If things change to colder weather in the next few months, I'll be using the Sottzeros more frequently, and giving the Michelins a bit of a rest.
The only reason the roads in Winter are safe for Summer tyres is because councils spend lots of money gritting them. They dont apply cooling solution in summer to aid Winter tyres do they?
I wish they didn't grit the roads, my car would be cleaner and all the muppets that cant drive would crash and be off the roads (for a time) making them less busy.
We would then not be hearing all the comments "I can manage with Summer tyres" and my tax bill would be reduced (like they would reduce taxes
).
People who can drive to the conditions and those with Winter tyres would not be effected too much
Shame will not happen
I wish they didn't grit the roads, my car would be cleaner and all the muppets that cant drive would crash and be off the roads (for a time) making them less busy.
We would then not be hearing all the comments "I can manage with Summer tyres" and my tax bill would be reduced (like they would reduce taxes
).People who can drive to the conditions and those with Winter tyres would not be effected too much
Shame will not happen
JagXJR said:
The only reason the roads in Winter are safe for Summer tyres is because councils spend lots of money gritting them. They dont apply cooling solution in summer to aid Winter tyres do they?
I wish they didn't grit the roads, my car would be cleaner and all the muppets that cant drive would crash and be off the roads (for a time) making them less busy.
We would then not be hearing all the comments "I can manage with Summer tyres" and my tax bill would be reduced (like they would reduce taxes).
People who can drive to the conditions and those with Winter tyres would not be effected too much
Shame will not happen
You think your winter tyres will help much if you hit black ice at high speed?? Deluded if you do....I wish they didn't grit the roads, my car would be cleaner and all the muppets that cant drive would crash and be off the roads (for a time) making them less busy.
We would then not be hearing all the comments "I can manage with Summer tyres" and my tax bill would be reduced (like they would reduce taxes
).People who can drive to the conditions and those with Winter tyres would not be effected too much
Shame will not happen
Winter Tyres are something I am looking at now as I reckon that we could be in for some pretty dire snow this year. Lets face it we havent had any really bad stuff since the 60s and a number of forecasters are thinking this is the year we get our backsides smacked. This polar vortex thing thats paralysing the east coast of the US has a chance that it could take a swipe at the UK in the coming weeks. I suspect Mid Jan to Feb will be the tell tales and Feb March being our worse months - either way if I am wrong I can rest up my summer tyres for a couple of months so its no great shakes if we only get one day when i need to be mobile. It will also allow me to have my main wheels sent off for refurbishment.
I agree that drivers shouldnt be buying these tyres so that they can go faster-thats not the aim. MThe aim should be to get out of trouble or try to stay out of trouble on snow and ice and where possible not get caught behind others running summer/year round tyres and so being able to safely complete your intended journey. Even a slight incline could end your journey prematurely if you cant grip the road surface.
What are peoples views too on getting all 4 tyres changed as most winter tyre review videos seem to promote? I can see that on say a FWD car having standard tyres on the rear could upset the back of the car as it has less grip than the front but the demonstrations I see are to illustrate moves at a decent turn of speed that IMO shouldnt be done by Joe Average on your typical urban road anyway. Is it OK to simply buy tyres for the driving wheels so that under power you have traction? Why buy 4 if 2 will get you out of the manure? You arent going rallying so why have 4?
I also wonder how those in older cars with mechanical LSDs manage on winter and summer tyres - do they have a useful advantage over standard diff fitted cars or do they need winter tyres too ?
I agree that drivers shouldnt be buying these tyres so that they can go faster-thats not the aim. MThe aim should be to get out of trouble or try to stay out of trouble on snow and ice and where possible not get caught behind others running summer/year round tyres and so being able to safely complete your intended journey. Even a slight incline could end your journey prematurely if you cant grip the road surface.
What are peoples views too on getting all 4 tyres changed as most winter tyre review videos seem to promote? I can see that on say a FWD car having standard tyres on the rear could upset the back of the car as it has less grip than the front but the demonstrations I see are to illustrate moves at a decent turn of speed that IMO shouldnt be done by Joe Average on your typical urban road anyway. Is it OK to simply buy tyres for the driving wheels so that under power you have traction? Why buy 4 if 2 will get you out of the manure? You arent going rallying so why have 4?
I also wonder how those in older cars with mechanical LSDs manage on winter and summer tyres - do they have a useful advantage over standard diff fitted cars or do they need winter tyres too ?
Dan Friel said:
You think your winter tyres will help much if you hit black ice at high speed?? Deluded if you do....
Perhaps not at the initial point of hitting it, but with winters, you may stand a better chance of regaining control once the ice is passed and you're sideways on. Especially since the temps would be low enough for the softer compound to make a difference.I've got Nokians on the XF and while a tiny bit squirmy and wallowy, they're working well even in this mild weather. Maybe my summer Dunlops would be better up to now, but given that they have 3 bands of 1" slicks around the centre of the tyre, I think I may get better traction for starting and stopping in snow from the winters. That's my personal preference.
Vladimir said:
Is it? A report with no information as to the type of tyres fitted (Nordic, Central European?) who made them (someone decent, or Linglong?)how the accident happened (speed? aquaplaning? condition of road surface? condition of car? weather conditions?) written in a country that has no experience of winter tyres and which describes a practice that no-one recommends (fitting different types of tyre to each axle). You seem to be on a mission...
Bluebarge said:
Is it? A report with no information as to the type of tyres fitted (Nordic, Central European?) who made them (someone decent, or Linglong?)how the accident happened (speed? aquaplaning? condition of road surface? condition of car? weather conditions?) written in a country that has no experience of winter tyres and which describes a practice that no-one recommends (fitting different types of tyre to each axle).
You seem to be on a mission...
Actually no; I just spotted it earlier. It seems several bodies are in support of a ban. Any proof that NZ has no experience of snow tyres? Rather a sweeping statement for a country that has more snow than the UK (South Island). In fact when we were there in December and January (their mid Summer) it snowed very heavily.You seem to be on a mission...
Wait, there's more! 
Age of tyres is quite important - anything over 5 years is near fit to be binned necause of uv damage, perishing etc.
The car in that accident appears to have been a Jap import. These cars are often old (10-12 years +) but low-mileage because they have been sat in bumper-to-bumper traffic in downtown Osaka for their whole lives. The rear tyres on that car could therefore have been original-fit or close to it and fit for the tip.
Impossible to draw any conclusions from that report, particularly since a provincial NZ coroner, relying on reports from local plod, is unlikely to be at the cutting-edge of knowledge as to winter tyre capability.
Age of tyres is quite important - anything over 5 years is near fit to be binned necause of uv damage, perishing etc.
The car in that accident appears to have been a Jap import. These cars are often old (10-12 years +) but low-mileage because they have been sat in bumper-to-bumper traffic in downtown Osaka for their whole lives. The rear tyres on that car could therefore have been original-fit or close to it and fit for the tip.
Impossible to draw any conclusions from that report, particularly since a provincial NZ coroner, relying on reports from local plod, is unlikely to be at the cutting-edge of knowledge as to winter tyre capability.
Bluebarge said:
Wait, there's more!
Age of tyres is quite important - anything over 5 years is near fit to be binned necause of uv damage, perishing etc.
The car in that accident appears to have been a Jap import. These cars are often old (10-12 years +) but low-mileage because they have been sat in bumper-to-bumper traffic in downtown Osaka for their whole lives. The rear tyres on that car could therefore have been original-fit or close to it and fit for the tip.
Impossible to draw any conclusions from that report, particularly since a provincial NZ coroner, relying on reports from local plod, is unlikely to be at the cutting-edge of knowledge as to winter tyre capability.
So:Age of tyres is quite important - anything over 5 years is near fit to be binned necause of uv damage, perishing etc.
The car in that accident appears to have been a Jap import. These cars are often old (10-12 years +) but low-mileage because they have been sat in bumper-to-bumper traffic in downtown Osaka for their whole lives. The rear tyres on that car could therefore have been original-fit or close to it and fit for the tip.
Impossible to draw any conclusions from that report, particularly since a provincial NZ coroner, relying on reports from local plod, is unlikely to be at the cutting-edge of knowledge as to winter tyre capability.
New Zealanders are thick, provincial yokels with equally ill informed legal professionals.
The tyres MIGHT have been old (but might NOT have been)
Jap imports are useless despite the success of Jap cars in Winter rallying.
It might be a good idea not to visit the beautiful country that is New Zealand…
57Ford said:
Dan Friel said:
You think your winter tyres will help much if you hit black ice at high speed?? Deluded if you do....
Perhaps not at the initial point of hitting it, but with winters, you may stand a better chance of regaining control once the ice is passed and you're sideways on. Especially since the temps would be low enough for the softer compound to make a difference.I've got Nokians on the XF and while a tiny bit squirmy and wallowy, they're working well even in this mild weather. Maybe my summer Dunlops would be better up to now, but given that they have 3 bands of 1" slicks around the centre of the tyre, I think I may get better traction for starting and stopping in snow from the winters. That's my personal preference.
Vladimir said:
So:
New Zealanders are thick, provincial yokels with equally ill informed legal professionals.
The tyres MIGHT have been old (but might NOT have been)
Jap imports are useless despite the success of Jap cars in Winter rallying.
It might be a good idea not to visit the beautiful country that is New Zealand…
No - those are all straw man arguments that you have put up.New Zealanders are thick, provincial yokels with equally ill informed legal professionals.
The tyres MIGHT have been old (but might NOT have been)
Jap imports are useless despite the success of Jap cars in Winter rallying.
It might be a good idea not to visit the beautiful country that is New Zealand…
NZ is a very small tyre market.
Sales of winter tyres are negligible.
Knowledge of winter tyres and their capabilities is therefore likely to be negligible.
A coroner is just a lawyer who relies on evidence put to him by the accident investigator. They ain't Lord Denning.
The accident investigator is local plod who will have as much experience as the number of accidents that occur in his parish/training can provide - I would happily suggest that a UK accident investigator from a large force with plenty of experience of different types of roads and road conditions will know a good deal more than his NZ cousin.
The car in question had different types of tyres on each axle - a known "no-no" which all tyre manufacturers advise against.
As to the rest - that report provides no information that indicates the cause of the accident other than the use of 2 tyre types on different axles (see above).
The "several organisations" you mention are not quoted but I'm guessing they are all from NZ, a country of 3m, with limited experience of winter tyres (see above).
Your reference to Japanese cars in rallying is a baffling non-sequituur to the observation that Jap imports tend to be old and little-used hence the tyres may have been of similar vintage (they may not, who knows? the report says nothing, so proves nothing).
So, as an argument against winter tyres, that report is a very damp squib indeed.
Seriously, if you want to start a crusade, you need a decent horse. You are currently sat on a stuffed donkey.
ToothbrushMan said:
What are peoples views too on getting all 4 tyres changed as most winter tyre review videos seem to promote? I can see that on say a FWD car having standard tyres on the rear could upset the back of the car as it has less grip than the front but the demonstrations I see are to illustrate moves at a decent turn of speed that IMO shouldnt be done by Joe Average on your typical urban road anyway. Is it OK to simply buy tyres for the driving wheels so that under power you have traction? Why buy 4 if 2 will get you out of the manure? You arent going rallying so why have 4?
I'll give you my experience based on experience using just 2 winter tyres on a front wheel drive car - Fiat Coupe. Almost all of the time it will present no issue, I have deliberately provoked my car on wet and dry roads (where there was nothing to hit of course!) to see what the balance is like and found very little difference to having 4 summer tyres - the back end is not loose in any way compared to the front, and that on a car which can get tail happy due to a large amount of weight over the front (it remains the only car I have spun on the road in over 30 years of driving). In the snow it certainly has more grip at the front than the back, but that is pretty obvious. Driven with knowledge of the set up and conditions it is perfectly safe - it means driving to the limit of summer tyres but I am happy to do that with the added security of being able to stop and steer. Sure, 4 winter tyres would be better and I would recommend that but I had 2 spare wheels and was relatively short of cash when I first bought mine so just got the 2, not feeling the need for more having used the car that way. It is now my second car so gets less use anyway but I am very happy to use it if there is snow on the ground. On the other hand, my rear wheel drive car gets 4 winter tyres and I wouldn't consider anything else for it, being able to go but not stop or steer doesn't seem sensible and being able to stop and steer but not moving forwards would just be frustrating!
Having read the NZ article after my last posti will add that it is a completely different situation to the question I replied to. The car in NZ had winter tyres on the rear and summer on the front and there is no indication of the way it "lost control" which could cover a great many things. The article asked more questions than it answered in my view, and if taken seriously would imply that winter tyres are dangerous in the wet which certainly doesn't appear to be the case based on the posts of most people here.
Bluebarge said:
No - those are all straw man arguments that you have put up.
NZ is a very small tyre market.
Sales of winter tyres are negligible.
Knowledge of winter tyres and their capabilities is therefore likely to be negligible.
A coroner is just a lawyer who relies on evidence put to him by the accident investigator. They ain't Lord Denning.
The accident investigator is local plod who will have as much experience as the number of accidents that occur in his parish/training can provide - I would happily suggest that a UK accident investigator from a large force with plenty of experience of different types of roads and road conditions will know a good deal more than his NZ cousin.
The car in question had different types of tyres on each axle - a known "no-no" which all tyre manufacturers advise against.
As to the rest - that report provides no information that indicates the cause of the accident other than the use of 2 tyre types on different axles (see above).
The "several organisations" you mention are not quoted but I'm guessing they are all from NZ, a country of 3m, with limited experience of winter tyres (see above).
Your reference to Japanese cars in rallying is a baffling non-sequituur to the observation that Jap imports tend to be old and little-used hence the tyres may have been of similar vintage (they may not, who knows? the report says nothing, so proves nothing).
So, as an argument against winter tyres, that report is a very damp squib indeed.
Seriously, if you want to start a crusade, you need a decent horse. You are currently sat on a stuffed donkey.
Your attempts at patronising me are laughable. The link isn't a report, it's a new article. Do you know the difference?NZ is a very small tyre market.
Sales of winter tyres are negligible.
Knowledge of winter tyres and their capabilities is therefore likely to be negligible.
A coroner is just a lawyer who relies on evidence put to him by the accident investigator. They ain't Lord Denning.
The accident investigator is local plod who will have as much experience as the number of accidents that occur in his parish/training can provide - I would happily suggest that a UK accident investigator from a large force with plenty of experience of different types of roads and road conditions will know a good deal more than his NZ cousin.
The car in question had different types of tyres on each axle - a known "no-no" which all tyre manufacturers advise against.
As to the rest - that report provides no information that indicates the cause of the accident other than the use of 2 tyre types on different axles (see above).
The "several organisations" you mention are not quoted but I'm guessing they are all from NZ, a country of 3m, with limited experience of winter tyres (see above).
Your reference to Japanese cars in rallying is a baffling non-sequituur to the observation that Jap imports tend to be old and little-used hence the tyres may have been of similar vintage (they may not, who knows? the report says nothing, so proves nothing).
So, as an argument against winter tyres, that report is a very damp squib indeed.
Seriously, if you want to start a crusade, you need a decent horse. You are currently sat on a stuffed donkey.
The NEWS ARTICLE references four cases with similar circumstances. Do you have any proof that the NZ Winter tyre market is negligible? Have you even been there before and driven 100s of miles in snow like I have? In a Japanese import.
You are pulling a very common and rather pathetic PH technique that quickly silences most but to anyone with half a brain, it reveals a barrage of vacuous nonsense aimed at trying to impress others. You have no clue, especially living in the Thames Valley with a VW Polo and no experience of driving a RWD car with Winters. I'm sure you'll want the last word though.
Edited by Vladimir on Tuesday 7th January 21:01
john2443 said:
Also I think that studs gradually fall out of the tyres, if you were to use them all the time they might all have gone by the time it snows.
I'd dispute that. I run studded winter tires here in Canada (currently nokian hakkapeliittas) from mid Nov through to April, and haven't lost any studs. Drive regularly off road and you can tear them out, but not on regular pavement. The 7 degree rule is the sales pitch tire companies use here as rule of thumb to change to winter tires. It's a conservative pitch I suppose, but then our temperatures tend to drop fairly predictably from there rather than swing cold/warmer as they do in the UK.
I live at a ski resort, so my use of winter tires is mandated by law, leave city limits here and winter tires or chains are required. I've a 2013 STI at the moment and it's a great vehicle for my location. Last year I had a 2011 Golf GTI equipped with winter tires - it had nowhere near the same ability in the depths of winter. It was perfectly adequate, but less sure footed.
All I can say bad about running 2 winters on the back of a RWD is that it feels very loose on a dry road. This is in contrast to the view that it is dangerous on snow. Intact I found it to be perfectly fine on snow. The warm (hot?) dry road means that the summer tyres are very grippy and this leads to oversteer, but you can control it.
With winters on the front of a FWD it is fine in warm conditions and very good on snow for most situations. I'm not sure what the big deal is, PROVIDED speeds are kept down to the same level as if you were using chains or snow socks. If you need to go 'faster' then a set of 4. But who's going fast when the car in front can't handle the next hill?
With winters on the front of a FWD it is fine in warm conditions and very good on snow for most situations. I'm not sure what the big deal is, PROVIDED speeds are kept down to the same level as if you were using chains or snow socks. If you need to go 'faster' then a set of 4. But who's going fast when the car in front can't handle the next hill?
Vladimir said:
Actually no; I just spotted it earlier. It seems several bodies are in support of a ban. Any proof that NZ has no experience of snow tyres? Rather a sweeping statement for a country that has more snow than the UK (South Island). In fact when we were there in December and January (their mid Summer) it snowed very heavily.
So you think winter tyres should be banned?Do you want an all year round ban?
I run them all year round am i a danger to the public?
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