performance brake pads, worth iy?
Discussion
dblack1 said:
lets forget the brands for a minute. And discuss brake pad tech.
Every brake pad performs best at a certain temperature, and not all pads that work in the same heat range are created equal. A pad designed for track use only usually won't perform very well on the street (It will make noise, in some cases it will have less braking power than a street pad, and could even damage your rotors with extended use outside of it's heat range. If you plan on having a dual purpose car, it isn't that uncommon to switch brakes before a track day, and there are pads designed with dual purpose in mind.
My suggestion: If you plan on just doing spirited driving, I would stick with stock pads.
i agreeEvery brake pad performs best at a certain temperature, and not all pads that work in the same heat range are created equal. A pad designed for track use only usually won't perform very well on the street (It will make noise, in some cases it will have less braking power than a street pad, and could even damage your rotors with extended use outside of it's heat range. If you plan on having a dual purpose car, it isn't that uncommon to switch brakes before a track day, and there are pads designed with dual purpose in mind.
My suggestion: If you plan on just doing spirited driving, I would stick with stock pads.
Mr2Mike said:
dblack1 said:
lets forget the brands for a minute. And discuss brake pad tech.
Every brake pad performs best at a certain temperature, and not all pads that work in the same heat range are created equal. A pad designed for track use only usually won't perform very well on the street (It will make noise, in some cases it will have less braking power than a street pad, and could even damage your rotors with extended use outside of it's heat range. If you plan on having a dual purpose car, it isn't that uncommon to switch brakes before a track day, and there are pads designed with dual purpose in mind.
My suggestion: If you plan on just doing spirited driving, I would stick with stock pads.
My suggestion: Ignore the above since there are a wide range of performance brake material that work perfectly well from cold, but will provide very significant improvements over the OEM pads. Every brake pad performs best at a certain temperature, and not all pads that work in the same heat range are created equal. A pad designed for track use only usually won't perform very well on the street (It will make noise, in some cases it will have less braking power than a street pad, and could even damage your rotors with extended use outside of it's heat range. If you plan on having a dual purpose car, it isn't that uncommon to switch brakes before a track day, and there are pads designed with dual purpose in mind.
My suggestion: If you plan on just doing spirited driving, I would stick with stock pads.
If you find the standard pads limiting (and despite the protestations of some PH members the limits are pretty easy to find on some cars) then a set DS2500 or the above mentioned Pagids will give a night and day difference. The downsides tend to be shorter pad life and more dust, but they work very well from cold.
Dave Brand said:
They are tested way beyond anything the average driver will ever encounter, for example the infamous "Grossglockner-test".
And yet they can be faded to the point of complete uselessness without trying particularly hard. OEM Brembo pads on my Fiat Coupe 20VT, for example, would be pretty much done after a couple of hard brakes from highish speed, whereas the DS2500's I replaced them with would take as much abuse as you could safely throw at them on a public road.Mr2Mike said:
My suggestion: Ignore the above since there are a wide range of performance brake material that work perfectly well from cold, but will provide very significant improvements over the OEM pads.
If you find the standard pads limiting (and despite the protestations of some PH members the limits are pretty easy to find on some cars) then a set DS2500 or the above mentioned Pagids will give a night and day difference. The downsides tend to be shorter pad life and more dust, but they work very well from cold.
My suggestion: Ignore this guy, because I said that some won't work well in the cold, and I listed other considerations, such as noise (the number one problem people have with performance pads). As said previously, unless you intend to use the street as a race track, I would avoid pads designed for the track, you don't need a pad that was designed for continuous exposure to high heat for street driving. If you need track pads (for track day), they can be swapped at the track (there are even "no break in period" pads available).If you find the standard pads limiting (and despite the protestations of some PH members the limits are pretty easy to find on some cars) then a set DS2500 or the above mentioned Pagids will give a night and day difference. The downsides tend to be shorter pad life and more dust, but they work very well from cold.
dblack1 said:
Mr2Mike said:
My suggestion: Ignore the above since there are a wide range of performance brake material that work perfectly well from cold, but will provide very significant improvements over the OEM pads.
If you find the standard pads limiting (and despite the protestations of some PH members the limits are pretty easy to find on some cars) then a set DS2500 or the above mentioned Pagids will give a night and day difference. The downsides tend to be shorter pad life and more dust, but they work very well from cold.
My suggestion: Ignore this guy, because I said that some won't work well in the cold, and I listed other considerations, such as noise (the number one problem people have with performance pads). As said previously, unless you intend to use the street as a race track, I would avoid pads designed for the track, you don't need a pad that was designed for continuous exposure to high heat for street driving. If you need track pads (for track day), they can be swapped at the track (there are even "no break in period" pads available).If you find the standard pads limiting (and despite the protestations of some PH members the limits are pretty easy to find on some cars) then a set DS2500 or the above mentioned Pagids will give a night and day difference. The downsides tend to be shorter pad life and more dust, but they work very well from cold.
andyiley said:
My own experience is EBC pads NEVER lasted a full track day and were worse for bite & disc wear than ANY standard pads.
DS/Mintex pads at least lasted a full day and felt a lot better with better disc wear.
Pagid RS or Ferodo DS UNO (forgot them in my original post) pads will last a full year of track days (6 to 8) complete with no disc changes and bite much better to boot.
Here we go again. DS/Mintex pads at least lasted a full day and felt a lot better with better disc wear.
Pagid RS or Ferodo DS UNO (forgot them in my original post) pads will last a full year of track days (6 to 8) complete with no disc changes and bite much better to boot.
I have ebc yellow in mine have done two track days at donnington and several v max days on same pads braking from 160mph all day.
I inspected them while looking to upgrade brake lines and they are hardly worn at all.
From my experience ebc especially since they changed compounds several years ago are very good.
Pagid are the best but my experience with mintex coy pounds I tried has been very poor.
As to the op depends on driving style and if you are having issues at present with normal pads.
I've been using ebc since I had my imprezz where I tried every brand just about out there. Reds worked great on the teg. Sorted the fading I was getting on standard pads and lasted ages.
Edited by Pesty on Saturday 13th September 14:43
Here we go again?
What was the purpose of that statement?
We have different experience of the same product..... Stop the press!
You are you & your car is yours, you drive like you do on the track days that you go to.
Guess what?
We are not the same & are therefore going to get different experiences of one part of the whole list of possible variables that is the same.
Both of the statements from you & me can therefore be 100% correct, as we are simply recounting our own experience.
What was the purpose of that statement?
We have different experience of the same product..... Stop the press!
You are you & your car is yours, you drive like you do on the track days that you go to.
Guess what?
We are not the same & are therefore going to get different experiences of one part of the whole list of possible variables that is the same.
Both of the statements from you & me can therefore be 100% correct, as we are simply recounting our own experience.
Edited by andyiley on Saturday 13th September 15:25
Yes we have different experiences
So instead if writing they "are s
t avoid" why not just say that. Or indeed for " Micky mouse drivers" as the other guy did.
Something like" I've used them and found Others better for my use Which was heavy track." The op might drive like he's driving miss daisy anyway and may have never experienced brake fade on oem pads.
Here we go again because there is a constant slagging off of ebc from a handful if posters. I've been here long enough to notice it on ph.
Search ph and ebc and you will find three or four posters that constantly just call them st. It's bordering on persecution on here over the years.
I also having used ebc for over 10. years on 4 different 'performance, cars, green, red and yellow compounds I find it extremely hard to believe you, that they wear out under one track day.
Personally I suspect some posters motives, because I've done track days on cars I drove as daily drivers very very hard all year round and found there longevity to be very good if not better than others I've tried.
I had terrible experience with mintex ( I set them on fire on the Subaru )but I'd never just post they are st, avoid. Or they are for Micky mouse drivers ( you see that comment up there? That's why I said here we go again)
Also may I ask how can they be soft enough to wear away in less than one track day and be harder wearing on disks?does not compute. Which compound did you use and how many times on how many vehicles' before or after the updated compounds? If you are going to come out so strongly slagging off a company at least add a bit more detail so we can judge your credibility.
So instead if writing they "are s
t avoid" why not just say that. Or indeed for " Micky mouse drivers" as the other guy did.Something like" I've used them and found Others better for my use Which was heavy track." The op might drive like he's driving miss daisy anyway and may have never experienced brake fade on oem pads.
Here we go again because there is a constant slagging off of ebc from a handful if posters. I've been here long enough to notice it on ph.
Search ph and ebc and you will find three or four posters that constantly just call them s
t. It's bordering on persecution on here over the years. I also having used ebc for over 10. years on 4 different 'performance, cars, green, red and yellow compounds I find it extremely hard to believe you, that they wear out under one track day.
Personally I suspect some posters motives, because I've done track days on cars I drove as daily drivers very very hard all year round and found there longevity to be very good if not better than others I've tried.
I had terrible experience with mintex ( I set them on fire on the Subaru )but I'd never just post they are s
t, avoid. Or they are for Micky mouse drivers ( you see that comment up there? That's why I said here we go again)Also may I ask how can they be soft enough to wear away in less than one track day and be harder wearing on disks?does not compute. Which compound did you use and how many times on how many vehicles' before or after the updated compounds? If you are going to come out so strongly slagging off a company at least add a bit more detail so we can judge your credibility.
Edited by Pesty on Saturday 13th September 15:59
I have tried all of the following EBC compounds green, yellow, red & blue.
All lasted under 1 full track day, that is in either an e36 325 or 328 (can't remember which was in which now) The least bad of them was the blue, but all needed changing before the end of the day.
Mintex standard pads would last the same, and work as well (read bad!).
Each time I changed the pads, I ended up also having to change the discs due to heavy grroving.
I have used Mintex 1144 on the rears for the last 7 years & on average change the pads every 2 years worth of track days and discs every 2 years as a matter fo course with virtually no wear at all.
I have tried DS2500 DS3000 with better effect, but still barely lasted a day each (Cadwell) although at least wore the discs less.
I now use Pagis RS29, which last a full year with plenty of meat left (around 2/3 worn) and the discs also last a year.
All lasted under 1 full track day, that is in either an e36 325 or 328 (can't remember which was in which now) The least bad of them was the blue, but all needed changing before the end of the day.
Mintex standard pads would last the same, and work as well (read bad!).
Each time I changed the pads, I ended up also having to change the discs due to heavy grroving.
I have used Mintex 1144 on the rears for the last 7 years & on average change the pads every 2 years worth of track days and discs every 2 years as a matter fo course with virtually no wear at all.
I have tried DS2500 DS3000 with better effect, but still barely lasted a day each (Cadwell) although at least wore the discs less.
I now use Pagis RS29, which last a full year with plenty of meat left (around 2/3 worn) and the discs also last a year.
Mr2Mike said:
dblack1 said:
Mr2Mike said:
My suggestion: Ignore the above since there are a wide range of performance brake material that work perfectly well from cold, but will provide very significant improvements over the OEM pads.
If you find the standard pads limiting (and despite the protestations of some PH members the limits are pretty easy to find on some cars) then a set DS2500 or the above mentioned Pagids will give a night and day difference. The downsides tend to be shorter pad life and more dust, but they work very well from cold.
My suggestion: Ignore this guy, because I said that some won't work well in the cold, and I listed other considerations, such as noise (the number one problem people have with performance pads). As said previously, unless you intend to use the street as a race track, I would avoid pads designed for the track, you don't need a pad that was designed for continuous exposure to high heat for street driving. If you need track pads (for track day), they can be swapped at the track (there are even "no break in period" pads available).If you find the standard pads limiting (and despite the protestations of some PH members the limits are pretty easy to find on some cars) then a set DS2500 or the above mentioned Pagids will give a night and day difference. The downsides tend to be shorter pad life and more dust, but they work very well from cold.
That being said, every day we make technological advances and the technology that goes into pad compounds is no exception. This is the reason that I said there is usually a trade off.
My point is that many people approach mods from the point of view of what they will gain and take little to no considerations to what they are trading other than money. I am not saying use factory pads, I am saying you should take the trade off and proposed use into consideration.
Are you arguing against yourself dblack1? You ask why OEMs aren’t using similar compounds to the fast road pads and then you launch into the idea of ‘trade-offs’ while omitting two of the main ‘trade-offs’ with fast road pads- Longevity and dust emission. Those are the main reasons they don’t get fitted at the factory.
I struggle to treat your opinion that fast road pads don’t work from cold with any credibility unless you can give us some examples. You’ve already mentioned that 1144s didn’t work from cold- I found the opposite from personal experience. Presumably if you’re able to assert that ‘fast road pads don’t work from cold’ you’ll be able to tell us all about all of the other fast road pads on the market which you must’ve tried?
I struggle to treat your opinion that fast road pads don’t work from cold with any credibility unless you can give us some examples. You’ve already mentioned that 1144s didn’t work from cold- I found the opposite from personal experience. Presumably if you’re able to assert that ‘fast road pads don’t work from cold’ you’ll be able to tell us all about all of the other fast road pads on the market which you must’ve tried?
I have to admit, my personal experience from 1144s, DS2500, Mintex Extreme(forgot about them), Pagis Rs29, & DS UNO was that they worked just fine from cold...... Yes they were even better when warm, but they were generally so much better than OE, that they were still at least as good from cold.
My 2 preferences (DS UNO & Pagid RS29) are SO good that when cold they can EASILY outbrake the ABS even with better warm tyres & good mechanical grip on the roads.
My 2 preferences (DS UNO & Pagid RS29) are SO good that when cold they can EASILY outbrake the ABS even with better warm tyres & good mechanical grip on the roads.
dblack1 said:
So you expect us to believe that these "performance road pads" are better than factory pads in every way... Explain this, why did the engineers designing the car (who probably know more about brakes than anyone on this forum) choose a different compound? It surely wasn't to shave off an insignificant amount off the price of the vehicle. Very few cars come equipped from the factory with performance pads because they come as a trade off. There is almost always a trade-off when reengineering a vehcile (price, reliability, economy, performance, comfort, etc).
That being said, every day we make technological advances and the technology that goes into pad compounds is no exception. This is the reason that I said there is usually a trade off.
My point is that many people approach mods from the point of view of what they will gain and take little to no considerations to what they are trading other than money. I am not saying use factory pads, I am saying you should take the trade off and proposed use into consideration.
The choice of OE pads is made on a combination of factors leading to the best compromise between performance in all its aspects - stopping ability, fade, noise, life, feel, etc., & price. Bear in mind that the friction material suppliers invited to tender for the supply of pads will be limited to the vehicle manufacturers' few preferred suppliers, with national bias an important factor & that engineers will often be over-ruled by accountants & you're left with a situation where there may well be a better aftermarket product available. However, buying aftermarket pads is a lottery as the pads will not necessarily have been tested on the vehicle they are specified for & what works well in one application may perform poorly in another. As for cost, vehicle manufacturers are very cost-conscious. Something like 1P off the price of a brake pad may seem insignificant, look at it at 1P off each of four pads over the production life of the vehicle & you've made a noticeable saving.That being said, every day we make technological advances and the technology that goes into pad compounds is no exception. This is the reason that I said there is usually a trade off.
My point is that many people approach mods from the point of view of what they will gain and take little to no considerations to what they are trading other than money. I am not saying use factory pads, I am saying you should take the trade off and proposed use into consideration.
For pads to be sold legally for road use they must conform to ECE R90, which requires that they match the performance of the OE material in a number of areas. R90 does, however, allow 15% deviation, which means that pads with a noticeably higher friction level can be sold on the aftermarket. Many buyers equate high friction with "better brakes" as they give more retardation for a given pedal pressure . . . it ain't neceesarily so - if you can trigger the ABS on a dry road with OE pads you don't need more friction!
dblack1 said:
Mr2Mike said:
My suggestion: Ignore the above since there are a wide range of performance brake material that work perfectly well from cold, but will provide very significant improvements over the OEM pads.
If you find the standard pads limiting (and despite the protestations of some PH members the limits are pretty easy to find on some cars) then a set DS2500 or the above mentioned Pagids will give a night and day difference. The downsides tend to be shorter pad life and more dust, but they work very well from cold.
My suggestion: Ignore this guy, because I said that some won't work well in the cold, and I listed other considerations, such as noise (the number one problem people have with performance pads). As said previously, unless you intend to use the street as a race track, I would avoid pads designed for the track, you don't need a pad that was designed for continuous exposure to high heat for street driving. If you need track pads (for track day), they can be swapped at the track (there are even "no break in period" pads available).If you find the standard pads limiting (and despite the protestations of some PH members the limits are pretty easy to find on some cars) then a set DS2500 or the above mentioned Pagids will give a night and day difference. The downsides tend to be shorter pad life and more dust, but they work very well from cold.
OEM road pads need to give you maximum braking from stone cold on the motorway after 20 miles of rain and snow . . . the performance pads are not designed to do this so shift their working envelope higher up the temperature range.
Have a look here: http://www.ferodoracing.com/products/car-racing/ra... The 2500 is much more road oriented than the 3000 for example.
As for the comment about "here we go again" . . . yes, I will always tell the truth about EBC, it was common to see them smoking badly, fading at modest use, the friction material breaking away from the steel backing and also covering the car in dust. . . you name it, they suffered from it. I also, like other people, got a snotty message from the owner of EBC threatening legal action if I continued to state my experience of their products ! When you look at the cost of a car and the time and money we put into them, why try to economise on brake pads ?
PhillipM said:
To be honest, the XP8's and 1144's I've had have been better even from stone cold after going through water than most OE pads, and just get better from there.
Sure, some will be, but not all. You can not often get your cake, your neighbours cake and the blokes's cake down the road and eat all three at once !BritishRacinGrin said:
Are you arguing against yourself dblack1? You ask why OEMs aren’t using similar compounds to the fast road pads and then you launch into the idea of ‘trade-offs’ while omitting two of the main ‘trade-offs’ with fast road pads- Longevity and dust emission. Those are the main reasons they don’t get fitted at the factory.
I struggle to treat your opinion that fast road pads don’t work from cold with any credibility unless you can give us some examples. You’ve already mentioned that 1144s didn’t work from cold- I found the opposite from personal experience. Presumably if you’re able to assert that ‘fast road pads don’t work from cold’ you’ll be able to tell us all about all of the other fast road pads on the market which you must’ve tried?
When did I mention any specific pad? I said SOME pads don't work as well in the cold. Most road pads won't last as long as a track pad in the same application (a road pad with normal road use will last longer than a track pad at the track). If you want examples, do a little research, I've known more than one person who upgraded only to switch back (usually because of noise). I don't see why you would want a pad that emits more dust, is nosier, and takes longer to bed in to only have an advantage that 1% of the time that your at the top of the heat range for a stock pad. I don't understand why people modify their vehicles and either complain about the problems (that they should have known about had they done their research) or claim that its a normal thing for that vehicle and every (insert make/model here) does it to.I struggle to treat your opinion that fast road pads don’t work from cold with any credibility unless you can give us some examples. You’ve already mentioned that 1144s didn’t work from cold- I found the opposite from personal experience. Presumably if you’re able to assert that ‘fast road pads don’t work from cold’ you’ll be able to tell us all about all of the other fast road pads on the market which you must’ve tried?
It is like this, I once had a guy offer to trade my car for his audi S4. He told me the brakes make noise, but all S4s do that (he said a performance shop told him that). I happen to know that stock S4s from the factory had little to no brake noise for that particular generation. Interestingly enough, I think a few more performance models would come with performance pads if the downsides were longevity and dust emission.
If you want to ignore the evidence and listen to all the "examples" that everyone else provided (i don't recall any, but that doesn't mean i didn't miss one). I also find it interesting that everyone's basis for bashing my thoughts is that I said SOME compounds don't work well from cold and everybody says I said all (or in your case a specific one). Lastly, "Performance Road Pads" from most reputable suppliers will be either stock equivalent or not much better, and they consider every higher performance pad to be a "track pad" even though some them are safe for normal road use (don't believe me on this, visit a few pad manufacturers websites see for yourself). When I hear performance pad, I think "track pad" because that is the performance upgrade, otherwise you might as well be getting stock.
In short, if you want to bash my thoughts and opinions, at least read what I wrote. Also, this is the internet, nobody here has any real credibility, if you want unbiased information you usually gotta dig for it.
dblack1 said:
I said SOME compounds don't work well from cold and everybody says I said all (or in your case a specific one).
Not quite, you made blatantly incorrect statements such as:dblack1 said:
As said previously, unless you intend to use the street as a race track, I would avoid pads designed for the track,
when no mention has ever been made of using track pads on the road. Track specific pads tend to not to work well when cold, and should not be used on the road. High performance road pads do work well from cold, and may be adequate for track use in some cases.Furthermore, you then make this comment:
dblack1 said:
So you expect us to believe that these "performance road pads" are better than factory pads in every way... Explain this, why did the engineers designing the car (who probably know more about brakes than anyone on this forum) choose a different compound?
The answer to this was in the actual posted you quoted with it, so how can anyone take your views seriously when you are trying to argue against yourself?Gassing Station | Suspension, Brakes & Tyres | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff