Dust seals or not for road use?
Discussion
I'm looking to change the front brakes and wondered what peoples opinions are about the pros and cons of using non dust sealed calipers on a road car.
Some advice says for a road car you should NEVER use a caliper without dust seals, others say that they've never had a problem.
The car is predominantly a road car, but will be used for track days and, all going to plan, sprints and hillclimbs from time to time.
It's not my everyday car, so if I could use non dust sealed calipers, and just service them / cleam them on a more regular basis that would be fine.
For the record I'm looking at Wilwood Superlites.
Some advice says for a road car you should NEVER use a caliper without dust seals, others say that they've never had a problem.
The car is predominantly a road car, but will be used for track days and, all going to plan, sprints and hillclimbs from time to time.
It's not my everyday car, so if I could use non dust sealed calipers, and just service them / cleam them on a more regular basis that would be fine.
For the record I'm looking at Wilwood Superlites.
as said it's racing stuff and it's aimed at calipers that need constant rebuild so it's up to you - they're obviously high maintenance so it's up to you whether you want to have to keep a regular eye on them or fit them and more less forget them - personally I'd use calipers with dust seals because you're not going to be tearing down the calipers on a regular basis for rebuild (or are you?)
up to you
up to you
It wasn't that I was deliberately trying to avoid dust seals, it's more a case of the available choice.
Wilwood Superlites have, as far as I know, a better choice of pad material at present, and they can take thick discs.
But they aren't dust sealed.
There is a radial mount dust sealed Superlite that's appeared reecntly, but it's a chunk of money more and it runs thinner pads, so the pad material choice may be limited.
There is the option of the Midilites, but they take thinner discs, and pad material choice may a problem.
Cheers.
Wilwood Superlites have, as far as I know, a better choice of pad material at present, and they can take thick discs.
But they aren't dust sealed.
There is a radial mount dust sealed Superlite that's appeared reecntly, but it's a chunk of money more and it runs thinner pads, so the pad material choice may be limited.
There is the option of the Midilites, but they take thinner discs, and pad material choice may a problem.
Cheers.
Wiwoods view
Many people are curious about the 'street-ability' of Wilwood calipers since they don't have dust boots. Do they have to be 're-built' after driving through the winter or when changing pads? The simple answer is "no".
Wilwood calipers are built to such high tolerances these days that road grime will not get in between the piston and caliper housing. With some simple care provided when changing pads, Wilwood calipers can run indefinitely without needing rebuilding. All that is necessary when changing pads is to spray the exposed pistons with brake cleaner and wipe off with a clean rag before pushing the pistons back into the caliper. This simple step is actually why many big brake kit manufacturers have dust boots on their calipers; they believe their customers are too lazy to do this simple task.
Some people are also curious as to why Wilwood does not provide dust boots on most of their calipers. The reason is pretty simple. Wilwood calipers are designed with ultimate performance in mind, i.e.: they expect their calipers to be used hard, which means high temperatures. Dust boots turn to a gooey mess or turn hard and brittle when exposed to the temperatures of driving events/track events and in either case, loose any of their effectiveness to keep road grime off the pistons. When you stop and think about it, this could actually cause a dangerous situation. If you run dust boot equipped calipers very hard (to the point of corrupting the dust boots ability to keep grime off the pistons) and then push the pistons back into the caliper without cleaning them, you could unknowingly compromise the piston/caliper seal and possibly cause a brake fluid leak or total failure.
Many people are curious about the 'street-ability' of Wilwood calipers since they don't have dust boots. Do they have to be 're-built' after driving through the winter or when changing pads? The simple answer is "no".
Wilwood calipers are built to such high tolerances these days that road grime will not get in between the piston and caliper housing. With some simple care provided when changing pads, Wilwood calipers can run indefinitely without needing rebuilding. All that is necessary when changing pads is to spray the exposed pistons with brake cleaner and wipe off with a clean rag before pushing the pistons back into the caliper. This simple step is actually why many big brake kit manufacturers have dust boots on their calipers; they believe their customers are too lazy to do this simple task.
Some people are also curious as to why Wilwood does not provide dust boots on most of their calipers. The reason is pretty simple. Wilwood calipers are designed with ultimate performance in mind, i.e.: they expect their calipers to be used hard, which means high temperatures. Dust boots turn to a gooey mess or turn hard and brittle when exposed to the temperatures of driving events/track events and in either case, loose any of their effectiveness to keep road grime off the pistons. When you stop and think about it, this could actually cause a dangerous situation. If you run dust boot equipped calipers very hard (to the point of corrupting the dust boots ability to keep grime off the pistons) and then push the pistons back into the caliper without cleaning them, you could unknowingly compromise the piston/caliper seal and possibly cause a brake fluid leak or total failure.
Have yet to try "unsealed" (I think it's really a matter of one seal per piston rather than two) race calipers on a road car, but am close to doing so.
Obviously a brake manufacturer is going to be inclined to warn you off because they don't want to be liable just in case. Also, their race product will not have been tested for extended road use, so it is a matter of speculation how it would hold up.
The guy I know with the greatest practical experience in related stuff assures me that race calipers in a road car should not be a problem - provided that the owner is prepared to service them frequently. His guess is that that ought to be once every 5,000 miles, or something like that.
I try to think of it this way: It is not unheard of that a 24 hour race will be continuously wet. During that time the car's tyres will throw up an enormous amount of grit and filth, and the total amount of piston travel will be much greater than it would be in an equivalent 2,500 miles of road driving. Nonetheless, there is never a caliper failure owing to exposed pistons.
Obviously a brake manufacturer is going to be inclined to warn you off because they don't want to be liable just in case. Also, their race product will not have been tested for extended road use, so it is a matter of speculation how it would hold up.
The guy I know with the greatest practical experience in related stuff assures me that race calipers in a road car should not be a problem - provided that the owner is prepared to service them frequently. His guess is that that ought to be once every 5,000 miles, or something like that.
I try to think of it this way: It is not unheard of that a 24 hour race will be continuously wet. During that time the car's tyres will throw up an enormous amount of grit and filth, and the total amount of piston travel will be much greater than it would be in an equivalent 2,500 miles of road driving. Nonetheless, there is never a caliper failure owing to exposed pistons.
flemke said:
Have yet to try "unsealed" (I think it's really a matter of one seal per piston rather than two) race calipers on a road car, but am close to doing so.
Obviously a brake manufacturer is going to be inclined to warn you off because they don't want to be liable just in case. Also, their race product will not have been tested for extended road use, so it is a matter of speculation how it would hold up.
The guy I know with the greatest practical experience in related stuff assures me that race calipers in a road car should not be a problem - provided that the owner is prepared to service them frequently. His guess is that that ought to be once every 5,000 miles, or something like that.
I try to think of it this way: It is not unheard of that a 24 hour race will be continuously wet. During that time the car's tyres will throw up an enormous amount of grit and filth, and the total amount of piston travel will be much greater than it would be in an equivalent 2,500 miles of road driving. Nonetheless, there is never a caliper failure owing to exposed pistons.
Obviously a brake manufacturer is going to be inclined to warn you off because they don't want to be liable just in case. Also, their race product will not have been tested for extended road use, so it is a matter of speculation how it would hold up.
The guy I know with the greatest practical experience in related stuff assures me that race calipers in a road car should not be a problem - provided that the owner is prepared to service them frequently. His guess is that that ought to be once every 5,000 miles, or something like that.
I try to think of it this way: It is not unheard of that a 24 hour race will be continuously wet. During that time the car's tyres will throw up an enormous amount of grit and filth, and the total amount of piston travel will be much greater than it would be in an equivalent 2,500 miles of road driving. Nonetheless, there is never a caliper failure owing to exposed pistons.
well said Flemke.
Thanks for all the replies, much appreciated.
Real world answers were what I was looking for, not the knee jerk 'road car = dust seals'.
The car is a second car (yes Wildoliver, they're for the Marcos) to be used for fun, trackdays, and with any luck some sprinting/hillclimbing, therefore regular servicing isn't really an issue for me, I do it anyway (at least I will when the car is back together...).
I'll let you know how I get on.
Cheers,
Chris.
Real world answers were what I was looking for, not the knee jerk 'road car = dust seals'.
The car is a second car (yes Wildoliver, they're for the Marcos) to be used for fun, trackdays, and with any luck some sprinting/hillclimbing, therefore regular servicing isn't really an issue for me, I do it anyway (at least I will when the car is back together...).
I'll let you know how I get on.
Cheers,
Chris.
chrisj said:
Thanks for all the replies, much appreciated.
Real world answers were what I was looking for, not the knee jerk 'road car = dust seals'.
The car is a second car (yes Wildoliver, they're for the Marcos) to be used for fun, trackdays, and with any luck some sprinting/hillclimbing, therefore regular servicing isn't really an issue for me, I do it anyway (at least I will when the car is back together...).
I'll let you know how I get on.
Cheers,
Chris.
Hi, interested in how you got on. Sorry I know it was a while ago but I've been looking at the same calipers you seeReal world answers were what I was looking for, not the knee jerk 'road car = dust seals'.
The car is a second car (yes Wildoliver, they're for the Marcos) to be used for fun, trackdays, and with any luck some sprinting/hillclimbing, therefore regular servicing isn't really an issue for me, I do it anyway (at least I will when the car is back together...).
I'll let you know how I get on.
Cheers,
Chris.
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