Renault Clio Steering U/J

[Axelvilhelm]

Why wouldn't shimming work? If even the excess space that allows the free play is filled with shims, shouldn't the free play then at least be reduced, if not completely eliminated? And I don't really care if it's not a permanent fix, since it's obviously an easy fix, so I can do it again whenever it fails. But I'm aware that this is only speculation, so I can't argue on this.

Really, welding seems risky imho, although I know it's a common fix. The part is designed to allow some free movement in all directions, and there is a possibility that it's not completely straight when welded. Then there might be heavy strains every time the wheel is turned.

Shimming might or might not work, but at least there's no risk that there will be further fatal damage. About filling the gap with epoxy; I'm also a bit sceptical on that...

[mikdys]

Not enough strength in trying to shim it (try it and let me know if it works - I'll wager it doesn't)

[Axelvilhelm]

mikdys said:

Not enough strength in trying to shim it (try it and let me know if it works - I'll wager it doesn't)

Yep, I will give it a try anyway. Just have to figure out what to use as shims. I'll let you know how it worked!

[mikdys]

It's your time to use as you wish - just consider that "fitting shims" might be viewed as just as "illegal" as welding and please be sure that anything you do is safe (jamming things into the steering U/J that could come loose and jam the steering might not be a good thing).

[Axelvilhelm]

I'm aware that any fix but replacing with a new column is illegal. I'll take into consideration the possibility of the shims coming loose and interfere with the steering. I guess it's the U/J itself that possibly could get jammed by shims coming loose. I see you tried shimming with radio fitting brackets some years ago. Did it eventually fail, and if it did, how?

From what I understand, I still think of welding as being a riskier option than shimming, but i might be wrong.

Btw, If my English sounds awkward, that's because of me being a Finn

Edited by Axelvilhelm on Friday 26th August 18:20

Edited by Axelvilhelm on Friday 26th August 18:24

[mikdys]

Listen, the only safe repair is a new part.

On my car I jammed in some radio fixing brackets and these reduced the freeplay on the steering wheel enough to get the car through the MOT with an advisory stating "excessive play in steering rack". The freeplay got worse over a short time and things were not much better than before.

I then paid a mobile welder to weld it and he only charged me half price because he said it was such a simple and easy and simple job. This completely took the freeplay out of the steering and it stayed like that until the cambelt failed two years later causing me to scrap the car (I didn't consider the car was worth the price of getting a cambelt changed - not a job I would undertake myself -and so I kept it going to the point of failure). The steering actually felt really good after it was welded and was never an issue again.

Whatever you do please be careful and don't make your car unsafe.

[Axelvilhelm]

mikdys said:

Listen, the only safe repair is a new part.

Well, you're probably right about that. If I'm to buy a new part, then I guess that would be the whole steering column, right? Sounds expensive. Obviously the best advice would be to get rid of the whole car. Quite poor design by the Renault engineers, to make an U/J with a rubber bushing, that can't be replaced without replacing the whole steering column.

[mikdys]

This was somebody else's take on it (http://www.renaultforums.co.uk/329-steering-suspension/27702-steering-column-universal-joint.html ):

know it's been 5 years since this ad was posted but I will put my find out there for others. I just had the same problem.

Right, don't what ever you do replace the steering rack just yet. I made this big mistake.
If it feels lOose on the steering wheel and chucks you all over the road it is more than likely the UV joint at the bottom of the steering Collem. Take the Colem off, it's a lot easier than doing the rack. At the bottom where you find the UV joint, if it is sliding up and down the Column then there is your problem. Don't pay out for a new one. If its ****ed then it's ****ed and doesn't matter if you try this fix that worked for me. Weld the to of the UV joint to the column so it doesn't slide. Or use chemical metal. Wack it back in. And bobs your teapot. It works spot on. A free fix.

I shelled out £160 on a new rack thanks to the MOT station telling me the wrong thing. And boy is the rack inaccessible and a ***** to do. The ex hast is in the way and no room for spanners on the pipes. Unless you got money for new exhaust parts it's a two man job and a royal slag of a job.

Hope this helps anyone trying to salvage they oldschool motor. I assume the same method can be applied to other cars.

TBH This must be quite an old car by now? You ought to be safer in a newer car with more airbags etc. Also, buy a more reliable type next time (avoid anything European would be my advice there - if you can pay out a little bit more for a reliable car it will cost you more upfront but will be cheaper in the long run and will avoid hassle like this).

[Axelvilhelm]

Obviously you're being the voice of reason in here right now. Yes, it's an old car, the registration papers say 96, but it must be a 95, since it's without airbag. The funny thing is that it's been a really reliable car until the last year; never failed a mot, and it's only done 130000 km. My parents had it since -03, and last year they gave it to me, when they bought a new car. Since then, it failed one mot, and I had to replace quite a lot of parts for it to pass. And now this. Personally I'd rather live with the free play (knowing it won't collapse totally, due to the design) than have an illegal and potentially fatal fix done. But I know it won't pass the next mot like this. I still have 5 months before the next mot has to be done, so maybe I just enjoy the car until that, and then take it to the junk yard.

But srsly??!! It's just a simple bushing, and for that you'll have to replace a part that costs severs hundreds! Does not make sense.

[Mr2Mike]

mikdys said:

Shimming/epoxy won't work - don't waste your time on these ideas.

The bushing is there to make the steering movement feel better (it probably does until the car leaves the showroom and the bushing wears out!).

No, the bushing is there to reduce NVH. Arguably it makes the steering 'feel' worse. There is no reason for shimming not to work provided you can force in a suitable shim. I agree that epoxy is very unlikely to work.

Safety is a non-issue; either it works and the free play is removed, or it doesn't and there's little or no improvement. It's not going to cause a sudden failure.

mikdys said:

It's your time to use as you wish - just consider that "fitting shims" might be viewed as just as "illegal" as welding and

You would need to provide some evidence if you believe this to be the case. Certainly nothing in the MOT manual covers it.

mikdys said:

TBH This must be quite an old car by now? You ought to be safer in a newer car with more airbags etc. Also, buy a more reliable type next time (avoid anything European would be my advice there - if you can pay out a little bit more for a reliable car it will cost you more upfront but will be cheaper in the long run and will avoid hassle like this).

That is a proper mumsnet post; 'don't repair your older car because new ones are safer'. This kind of crap has no place on a car enthusiasts website.

Edited by Mr2Mike on Saturday 27th August 09:25

[one eyed mick]

Just to add a bit of out back engineering if you are curing this prob with welding it can be done with a drill and a roll pin in minutes no heat no sweat no problem

[Axelvilhelm]

one eyed mick said:

Just to add a bit of out back engineering if you are curing this prob with welding it can be done with a drill and a roll pin in minutes no heat no sweat no problem

That would definitely take out the free play. But you'd have to drill through the upper part of the joint and the column itself, theoretically making the parts weaker, right? Probably not enough for them to break, but still. I'd like to be way on the safe side.

[Axelvilhelm]

Mr2Mike said:

There is no reason for shimming not to work provided you can force in a suitable shim. I agree that epoxy is very unlikely to work.

Safety is a non-issue; either it works and the free play is removed, or it doesn't and there's little or no improvement. It's not going to cause a sudden failure.

I'm also quite sure that shimming would work, if you pick the right material, and the shims are exactly the right size, and you somehow can make sure the shims stay in place. Still, mikdys have a point, that you wouldn't want the shims to come loose, and possibly jam the U/J.


You said there's nothing black on white that says shimming would be an illegal fix. What about welding then?

What about the shim material? Is steel the only way to go, or are there any plastic/compisite materials that could be strong enough for the job? I'd feel safer using some material that would flex a little.

[Mr2Mike]

Axelvilhelm said:

You said there's nothing black on white that says shimming would be an illegal fix. What about welding then?

Welding of steering components is a valid reason for MOT failure. That doesn't mean it's inherently unsafe, but badly done it could be.

Axelvilhelm said:

What about the shim material? Is steel the only way to go, or are there any plastic/compisite materials that could be strong enough for the job? I'd feel safer using some material that would flex a little.

The shim would need to be metal IMO since it needs to be strong enough to be driven into the space and you don't want a material that can easily deform.

Drilling and pinning is a possibility, you could also drill and tap the outer part of the joint (plenty thick enough to thread) and screw in a short bolt against the inner part.

[Axelvilhelm]

Mr2Mike said:

That doesn't mean it's inherently unsafe, but badly done it could be.

That's just the risk I don't want to take. And that's why shimming will be the only thing I'll try, if I try.

[chevy55]

You need to make sure it's actually the rubber joint that's gone and not the UJ itself. New lower column is about £200 and there are three different versions. It's a fairly easy but fiddly change with refitting the boot being the only real hassle.

[Axelvilhelm]

chevy55 said:

You need to make sure it's actually the rubber joint that's gone and not the UJ itself. New lower column is about £200 and there are three different versions. It's a fairly easy but fiddly change with refitting the boot being the only real hassle.

I'm quite sure it's the rubber joint that's detoriated. I rolled up the rubber cover, and found that the end of the column sat very loosely inside the upper part of the UJ, and I could wiggle it around. It really felt like there's no rubber bushing at all. I'm afraid that fitting a new column is out of question, since I don't think it's worth spending 300€ on parts for such an old car.

[chevy55]

Axelvilhelm said:

I'm quite sure it's the rubber joint that's detoriated. I rolled up the rubber cover, and found that the end of the column sat very loosely inside the upper part of the UJ, and I could wiggle it around. It really felt like there's no rubber bushing at all. I'm afraid that fitting a new column is out of question, since I don't think it's worth spending 300€ on parts for such an old car.

Then the easiest and safest solution would be to take the lower column off and get it welded up.

[Axelvilhelm]

chevy55 said:

hen the easiest and safest solution would be to take the lower column off and get it welded up.

In what sense do you see welding as a safer alternative than shimming? Maybe, if I could be absolutely sure that the job is well done, and the upper part of the UJ will be in a perfectly straight line with the column. Otherwise there might be heavy strains on the column and the UJ, right? The most reputable welders, that I could count on doing the job well, would probably refuse to perform an illegal fix.

[chevy55]

Axelvilhelm said:

In what sense do you see welding as a safer alternative than shimming? Maybe, if I could be absolutely sure that the job is well done, and the upper part of the UJ will be in a perfectly straight line with the column. Otherwise there might be heavy strains on the column and the UJ, right? The most reputable welders, that I could count on doing the job well, would probably refuse to perform an illegal fix.

Sorry, I thought you wanted to bodge it, welding is a safer bodge than wedging bits of metal in it. If you're too tight arsed to buy a new column why not do everyone a favour and scrap the car and make the roads in your vicinity safer.