Need evidence for court regarding respray

Need evidence for court regarding respray

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rumpelstiltskin

Original Poster:

2,805 posts

258 months

Thursday 27th March 2014
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I know this is a bit impractical doing this over the imternet but i need an experts opinion on something.I gave my Jaguar to a guy to finish off repairs i had done(nerve injury stopped me)and then to go on and respray the car.I have just read his 'Inventory of productions' which is what he has printed off in his defence as to what 'he' says he done to the car.Im a DIY painter and the first time i used a good epoxy high build primer i used one caot,and what amazed by how it filled small imperfections and scratches.
So,the story is i gave this painter a tin of quality high build primer and he didn't use it,it was still in his brothers garage where i gave him it.So in this inventory he printed he says he applied 'three' coats of high build primer to the car,the photos of the car i received are below.I just need an experts opinion as much as it's possible by a few photos,as to how much,or if indeed if there was 'any' high build primer used on my car,i personally think there is now way three coats are on this.




theshrew

6,008 posts

183 months

Thursday 27th March 2014
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I suppose a paint depth gauge could help. However I suppose different people will apply a different amount each coat.

7even

462 posts

192 months

Thursday 27th March 2014
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Paint could do with a flat n polish, the prep however leaves a lot to be desired, its nowhere close to being ready for primer.
I suppose its all going to be defined on what exactly you asked the painter to do? If you paid him for primer and paint only, and no prep work, then there's not much else you can ask for, if however you paid him for prep too then im sure there's something that can be done.
On saying that he should have at least mentioned to you that the substrate wasn't suitable for paint and would require more prep work.

Squiggs

1,520 posts

154 months

Thursday 27th March 2014
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That 'leatherette' style finish is something that interior repairers often strive to achieve laugh
In all seriousness though - a fault like that would lead me to think that either too much product has been applied, has not been allowed to dry properly or has been over baked ??? ..... I am however no expert on HB primer.

paintman

7,669 posts

189 months

Thursday 27th March 2014
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Have a look through this website. If you click on the headings 'before mixing' 'during application' 'during drying/curing 'after drying' it will bring up sub menus & you can compare what you've got with the pics.
I would suggest you find a local specialist bodyshop & ask their opinion - if they are prepared to get involved. You are going to need an expert witness as pics off a website aren't going to prove much.
Alternatively if you know who the makers of the various paints that were used were you could ask their opinion.
http://www.ppg.com/coatings/maxmeyerengland/Pages/...

tortop45

434 posts

159 months

Friday 28th March 2014
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well from what i can see,it looks like paint srinkage the best way to get rid of that is to bear metal it and start again.If you got your friend to cover up the cracks in the old paintwork with a 2 pack primer its just going to come back but worse.Ide say he,s just flatted the old paint work and tryed to bury the cracks with lots of fresh paint and thats why its cracking .The main problem is the old paint job......

Edited by tortop45 on Friday 28th March 22:47

smart repairer

28 posts

141 months

Friday 28th March 2014
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From what i can see from pictures i agree its shrinkage. It could be the old paint, It could be the primer he says has been applied. something underneath is wrong for sure.

rumpelstiltskin

Original Poster:

2,805 posts

258 months

Saturday 29th March 2014
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There is one small section that looks like shrinkage,the rest when you're standing beside the car is just pure scratch marks.He was asked to finish off a couple of repairs then apply primer then paint.As has been touched on here i'm finding it hard to get a local painter to talk against another painter,even though this guy is 'not' time served i've subsequently found out,and he's taking work away from genuine,qualified,folk.

tortop45

434 posts

159 months

Saturday 29th March 2014
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rumpelstiltskin said:
There is one small section that looks like shrinkage,the rest when you're standing beside the car is just pure scratch marks.He was asked to finish off a couple of repairs then apply primer then paint.As has been touched on here i'm finding it hard to get a local painter to talk against another painter,even though this guy is 'not' time served i've subsequently found out,and he's taking work away from genuine,qualified,folk.
You only get what you pay for in this game thats for sure,the only way to find out if he primered the areas in question is to flat it back to the old paint work and see,But what ever you do its got to be done again .By the way what did it cost ?.........

jeff666

2,314 posts

190 months

Saturday 29th March 2014
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rumpelstiltskin said:
There is one small section that looks like shrinkage,the rest when you're standing beside the car is just pure scratch marks.He was asked to finish off a couple of repairs then apply primer then paint.As has been touched on here i'm finding it hard to get a local painter to talk against another painter,even though this guy is 'not' time served i've subsequently found out,and he's taking work away from genuine,qualified,folk.
You said on one of your other threads that you had reports on the paint work from 2 different places, it was the thread where you wanted to sell the car.

Personally I think you are wasting your time, you paid a grand for a paint job including materials, and would not let the painter rectify any of the work.

May I ask ? what are "genuine, qualified, folk." I have no qualifications, however I have been painting cars for over 30 years, I still cock the odd one up now and then, always do my best to rectify the problems.

Even if you win in the small claims court, do you think the painter will cough up ? it will be your word against his regarding what was agreed for the price paid.

3rd thread on this paintjob now, good luck with it.

rumpelstiltskin

Original Poster:

2,805 posts

258 months

Saturday 29th March 2014
quotequote all
jeff666 said:
You said on one of your other threads that you had reports on the paint work from 2 different places, it was the thread where you wanted to sell the car.
YES BUT NOT IN WRITING,ADVISED NOT TO SELL CAR UNTIL CASE IS OVER

Personally I think you are wasting your time, you paid a grand for a paint job including materials, and would not let the painter rectify any of the work.
I WAS 'QUOTED' £1000 FOR THE PAINT JOB,THERE WERE TOO MANY FAULTS FOR HIM TO RECTIFY.

May I ask ? what are "genuine, qualified, folk." I have no qualifications, however I have been painting cars for over 30 years, I still cock the odd one up now and then, always do my best to rectify the problems.
GENUINE,QUALIFIED FOLK,THAT'LL BE TIME SERVED PAINTERS THEN,WHAT DID YOU THINK I MEANT,PLASTERERS?

Even if you win in the small claims court, do you think the painter will cough up ? it will be your word against his regarding what was agreed for the price paid.
DON'T THINK HE WILL COUGH UP,BUT WORTH A TRY THOUGH

3rd thread on this paintjob now, good luck with it.
3RD TOPIC,ONE ON EACH THREAD,YOUR GOOD LUCK MEANS AS MUCH AS IT WAS MEANT.IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE THREADS,DON'T READ THEM,SIMPLE AS.

jeff666

2,314 posts

190 months

Saturday 29th March 2014
quotequote all
rumpelstiltskin said:
jeff666 said:
You said on one of your other threads that you had reports on the paint work from 2 different places, it was the thread where you wanted to sell the car.
YES BUT NOT IN WRITING,ADVISED NOT TO SELL CAR UNTIL CASE IS OVER

Personally I think you are wasting your time, you paid a grand for a paint job including materials, and would not let the painter rectify any of the work.
I WAS 'QUOTED' £1000 FOR THE PAINT JOB,THERE WERE TOO MANY FAULTS FOR HIM TO RECTIFY.

May I ask ? what are "genuine, qualified, folk." I have no qualifications, however I have been painting cars for over 30 years, I still cock the odd one up now and then, always do my best to rectify the problems.
GENUINE,QUALIFIED FOLK,THAT'LL BE TIME SERVED PAINTERS THEN,WHAT DID YOU THINK I MEANT,PLASTERERS?

Even if you win in the small claims court, do you think the painter will cough up ? it will be your word against his regarding what was agreed for the price paid.
DON'T THINK HE WILL COUGH UP,BUT WORTH A TRY THOUGH

3rd thread on this paintjob now, good luck with it.
3RD TOPIC,ONE ON EACH THREAD,YOUR GOOD LUCK MEANS AS MUCH AS IT WAS MEANT.IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE THREADS,DON'T READ THEM,SIMPLE AS.
Oh dear, toys out the pram moment ? maybe you should have found a "time served" painter instead of a cheap as chips blow over guy, you have had plenty of good advice on all of the threads about this.

Please let us know how you get on, I find it very interesting being in the trade, not time served though.

tortop45

434 posts

159 months

Saturday 29th March 2014
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A thousand pounds including paint FFS what due expect.The car looks like a mk2 or an s type im guessing, to me thats a blow over,to paint one of those youve got to look at 2- 3 grand to do a good job plus paint.as ive said you only get what you pay for.Did you get any other quots at the time before you went ahead with this guy ?........

paintman

7,669 posts

189 months

Saturday 29th March 2014
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FWIW My own thoughts are:
Pic 1. Too much material applied & its cracking (crazing in the link) as it dries OR a reaction with whatever is under it.
Pic 2. The long lines are sandscratch & the texture may be an insufficently thinned material. The smaller lines may either be ss or the beginning of the same probelms as Pic 1.
Pic 3 isn't of any use.

I only use my own materials & I do not want any prep work to have been performed by the customer. Simply adds too many unknowns to the equation that are likely to bite me. If someone wants to supply paint & do their own prep then thanks, but you'll need to find someone else. (That said, I now only do SMART repairs & much of that is trade caravan work). I expect you'll find that many bodyshops will take the same view.
Some of the worst are old SMART repairs from the days of single pack lacquer, these just don't like 2k primer - the thinner causes pickling on a feather edge - & if I know or think there might be an old repair it gets a coat of isolator.

I don't think you've got a hope of knowing how much paint is on the car, never mind how many coats he's put on - or not.
Based on what the photos show I believe the only solution now would be to strip to bare metal & get a proper bodyshop to do the job. You can't just keep piling on paint hoping it will cover myriad different layers underneath.

If you can't get a suitably qualified expert witness - and as far as Criminal Courts are concerned this can either be someone with paper qualifications OR someone with appropriate lengthy experience so I presume a civil court would accept same - you are wasting your time with court as I expect your painter will blame the problems on what you have done. The problem is - as you are finding - that other bodyshops won't get involved as they simply don't need the disruption & what's in it for them financially? Unless of course you are prepared to pay their time win or lose at their normal hourly rate. Which could also be expensive.

May well be that you need to come to an arrangement with this chap to get your car back & then get it done by a competent bodyshop on their terms.


Edited by paintman on Saturday 29th March 21:57

jeff666

2,314 posts

190 months

Saturday 29th March 2014
quotequote all
tortop45 said:
A thousand pounds including paint FFS what due expect.The car looks like a mk2 or an s type im guessing, to me thats a blow over,to paint one of those youve got to look at 2- 3 grand to do a good job plus paint.as ive said you only get what you pay for.Did you get any other quots at the time before you went ahead with this guy ?........
In another thread started by the OP he had a quote of £1500.00 by "the best painter he has ever layed eyes on" don't forget the prep work was started by the OP, car left under a tarp, moisture problems with compressor etc etc.

I know I am coming across as someone with an axe to grind, and I do have some sympathy with the OP, but he still insist that you can get quality repaints for under a grand because a hundred years ago he had a black motor painted for £600.00.

I think he is pissing in the wind trying to get any joy over this, move on and put it down to experience OP, LIFE IS TOO SHORT FOR THIS CRAP.

Their is another thread on here about a chap who has had a bumper blown in for £150.00, and is not happy, then goes on to mention should he take it to BMW and pay £800.00 to have it done properly.

Lots of guys have said it but worth repeating "Cheap paintwork aint good, and good paintwork aint cheap"

Again apologies to the OP if he thinks I am being an arse here, but I deal with customers on a weekly basis who just have no idea of what is involved in doing the job right 1st time, and the costs involved.

paintman

7,669 posts

189 months

Sunday 30th March 2014
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jeff666 said:
In another thread started by the OP he had a quote of £1500.00 by "the best painter he has ever layed eyes on" don't forget the prep work was started by the OP, car left under a tarp, moisture problems with compressor etc etc.
I hadn't realised this has been going on in various incarnations for some time.
Interesting reading. I now know it has had a fair bit of God knows what paint applied over time which apparently wasn't up to much either.
"Anyway,the worst part of the car was without doubt along the area where the chrome strips are on the doors,why?Well some people had painted the car over the years believe it or not 'without' removing the chrome!!Thus resulting in a really high build up of paint resting against the chrome.Basically the last thing i done to the car before my arm packed in and i couldn't even hold my angle grinder was i lightly ran along this area with a wire cup brush to remove this thick,hard encrusted paint."
Comes a time when you need to strip all the old off & start again to avoid problems & I think that that time had come. I'm even more alarmed by the refernce to 'angle grinder' and 'wire cup brush'. I use both, but only for rust removal!

I'm curious as to what the court or your legal advisor has told you so far.

7even

462 posts

192 months

Monday 31st March 2014
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jeff666 said:
"Cheap paintwork aint good, and good paintwork aint cheap"

.
I like that! smile

Get the guy to rectify it and pay the difference, a bag of sand is peanuts nowadays, you could pay that for doing the side of a modern day car.

paintman

7,669 posts

189 months

Tuesday 1st April 2014
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Similar to "Quick, cheap, good. Pick any two."

AlmostUseful

3,276 posts

199 months

Saturday 19th April 2014
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Having read the original thread and just stumbled upon this one I'd like to offer my opinion.

You'll get nothing in court, it's all too subjective based on that you seem to have got what you paid for and the guy did offer to make good.

I'd let him re-do it, but make sure he takes it back to bare metal, and once he's done that you can take it somewhere else to get painted, at least you'll save on their labour for bare metalling!