Rubbing down before applying laquer?
Discussion
That's a bit like saying that because I've never seen anyone get hurt by a peanut, they are safe for everybody to eat. Respiratory sensitisers like isocyanates trigger an irreversible allergic reaction. If the OP happens to be genetically at risk, or other risk factors (smoking, for one) are present, filling a shed or garage with spraymist and working in it without the proper RPE could kill. A more likely result would be permanent asthma which could be triggered by previously completely innocuous things like cold weather.
The effects are also cumulative, so that even if you're not particularly sensitive, you can reach a tipping point where any more exposure suddenly sensitises you. And there's no warning that you're getting close to your limit.
The effects are also cumulative, so that even if you're not particularly sensitive, you can reach a tipping point where any more exposure suddenly sensitises you. And there's no warning that you're getting close to your limit.
Anatol said:
That's a bit like saying that because I've never seen anyone get hurt by a peanut, they are safe for everybody to eat. Respiratory sensitisers like isocyanates trigger an irreversible allergic reaction. If the OP happens to be genetically at risk, or other risk factors (smoking, for one) are present, filling a shed or garage with spraymist and working in it without the proper RPE could kill. A more likely result would be permanent asthma which could be triggered by previously completely innocuous things like cold weather.
The effects are also cumulative, so that even if you're not particularly sensitive, you can reach a tipping point where any more exposure suddenly sensitises you. And there's no warning that you're getting close to your limit.
Well isocyanates don't cause irreversible allergic reactions, they just cause allergic reactions, and are known sensitisers.The effects are also cumulative, so that even if you're not particularly sensitive, you can reach a tipping point where any more exposure suddenly sensitises you. And there's no warning that you're getting close to your limit.
They'll cause what will appear to be an asthma attack that will be progressively more severe the more number of times the subject is exposed to the allergen.
Hopefully after the third or fourth time the subject will learn from this and not shut themselves in a room full of the spraymist they have become allergic to, or, as I said before, they will win a Darwin award.
Although if the isocynates were that allergenic in the sort of concentrations hobbiests use them they would be flocking in droves to their local GP's. And that isn't the case.
julian64 said:
Well isocyanates don't cause irreversible allergic reactions, they just cause allergic reactions, and are known sensitisers.
Snip
Although if the isocynates were that allergenic in the sort of concentrations hobbiests use them they would be flocking in droves to their local GP's. And that isn't the case.
This phenomenon - sensitisation, creating a permanent allergic response that was not present previously is described as "causing an irreversible allergic reaction" in the advice put out by HSE. Since there seems to be no disagreement on the fact of it, I'm not going to argue over the semantics.Snip
Although if the isocynates were that allergenic in the sort of concentrations hobbiests use them they would be flocking in droves to their local GP's. And that isn't the case.
You also assume droves of hobbyists are using iso unsafely, which would benefit from supporting evidence. Taking a risk which could permanently damage your health to save a few quid or over something like the paint on a car does not strike me as the decision of a mentally healthy individual, but people are all different. Certainly it's not a bad thing for people considering it to be aware of the risks.
Well, I would say self evident things are self evident.
1) Large numbers of hobbiest have bought isocyanate paints.
2) I would suggest few is any hobbiers have positive pressure breathing apparatus hanging around.
3) Large numbers of hobbiests are not presenting with sensitising allergies.
I'm not belittling the risks involved, I'm just saying that the risks are sometimes exaggerated by those who have a vested interest in the jobs being left to professional, or the health and safety handwringers.
1) Large numbers of hobbiest have bought isocyanate paints.
2) I would suggest few is any hobbiers have positive pressure breathing apparatus hanging around.
3) Large numbers of hobbiests are not presenting with sensitising allergies.
I'm not belittling the risks involved, I'm just saying that the risks are sometimes exaggerated by those who have a vested interest in the jobs being left to professional, or the health and safety handwringers.
The suggestion isn't being made that there is a high risk of ending up with sensitisation if you use isocyanate unsafely. The suggestion is being made that if you use it unsafely, you will increase your exposure, and in a small number of cases (based on lifetime exposure levels, other risk factors present, and personal makeup) you can exceed a level of lifetime exposure leading to permanent respiratory problems (which have been fatal). That's a potentially low incidence of the harmful consequence occurring, but a serious actual health consequence.
It also arguably makes predicting incidence probability very difficult because there's no simple dose-response calculation for a single occasion of exposure.
Put another way, if DIY-ing your paintwork killed one person a year, it wouldn't be news. No droves of hobbyists presenting with symptoms. Still would have been good advice to have told that person that saving £150 on their door repaint wasn't worth it. Also, the advice on this thread hasn't been "Don't, only a professional should do that" out of self-interest, as you suggest. It has actually been more like "If you're not going to leave that to a professional, make sure you borrow an airfed mask as well as a spraygun, and keep other people out of the spraymist" - is there really anything wrong with giving that advice?
It also arguably makes predicting incidence probability very difficult because there's no simple dose-response calculation for a single occasion of exposure.
Put another way, if DIY-ing your paintwork killed one person a year, it wouldn't be news. No droves of hobbyists presenting with symptoms. Still would have been good advice to have told that person that saving £150 on their door repaint wasn't worth it. Also, the advice on this thread hasn't been "Don't, only a professional should do that" out of self-interest, as you suggest. It has actually been more like "If you're not going to leave that to a professional, make sure you borrow an airfed mask as well as a spraygun, and keep other people out of the spraymist" - is there really anything wrong with giving that advice?
Edited by Anatol on Monday 20th September 06:53
Eddie 4 2 said:
Ok Ile be helpfull dont do it with a can i dont no why harfwits sell paint cans? all they are going to do is make it look worse lol trust me iv seen it time and time again. nope iv never done one bit of DIY lol and business is really good atm thanks.
But if you are going to spray it i bet you make a right mess of it as paint cans are no good for that type of job.
But good luck
Hi I love diy and had a huge scratch right up centre of my bonnet and to eddies dismay I presume I took the bonnet off sanded primed and painted with a spray can which I ordered from Germany to get the right colour and it looks amazing. Saved 300 as I was quoted 340 for the job and the material came to 30 so I would say to anyone try it yourself take ur time I did and it doesn't look like it was ever off the car. But if you are going to spray it i bet you make a right mess of it as paint cans are no good for that type of job.
But good luck
A tip for spraycans.
Warm the cans first. Keep them warm between coats.
If you have more than one then alternate them so using warm cans.
This improves keeping the internal pressure up.
As for isocyanates....
I know of people who suffered respiratory issues and on "industrial injury" enhanced benefits.
A similar effect to miners with pneumoconiosis etc. NOT a pretty sight.
Also, think what 2k is.
A mix of paint/hardener that is reacting until hard. Your lungs are ingesting this and how much is hardening in your lungs?
It is a bit more than becoming sensitised and an allergic reaction. Have you seen a smokers lungs after death? Build up of tars etc.
Me? I have/do use spraycans but with at the very least, good airflow/ventilation and face masks. Never used 2k. If needed I would get the proper facemask and place compressor in a clean air position with breathing air filtration.
Warm the cans first. Keep them warm between coats.
If you have more than one then alternate them so using warm cans.
This improves keeping the internal pressure up.
As for isocyanates....
I know of people who suffered respiratory issues and on "industrial injury" enhanced benefits.
A similar effect to miners with pneumoconiosis etc. NOT a pretty sight.
Also, think what 2k is.
A mix of paint/hardener that is reacting until hard. Your lungs are ingesting this and how much is hardening in your lungs?
It is a bit more than becoming sensitised and an allergic reaction. Have you seen a smokers lungs after death? Build up of tars etc.
Me? I have/do use spraycans but with at the very least, good airflow/ventilation and face masks. Never used 2k. If needed I would get the proper facemask and place compressor in a clean air position with breathing air filtration.
This thread about the dangers of 2k paint has been posted up here before but I think it is a very cautionary tale:
http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/threads/2k-safe...
"I now have to take 3 types of inhalers all the time now because of my stupidity, i've now got cronic obstructive pulmary decease in short my lungs are knackered."
http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/threads/2k-safe...
"I now have to take 3 types of inhalers all the time now because of my stupidity, i've now got cronic obstructive pulmary decease in short my lungs are knackered."
Edited by Andy 308GTB on Tuesday 18th October 12:54
Whilst I fully agree that isocyanates can be extremely dangerous to health ...... I got as far as post #3 of the link
"Hi Snooper.
The Mask was not air fed but it was carbon filtered cost around £30 but I was told that the mask was not what caused the problem, That chemical that is in the 2K seemingly can get through the eyes and the pours in your skin very quickly so idealy i should have had a full suit with the air fed system, but like i said leason learnt mate."
Which is factually wrong!
http://www.hse.gov.uk/mvr/bodyshop/myths/myth9.htm
So I didn't bother to read any further ......
All the FACTS regarding the dangers of Iso's can be found on the HSE website.
"Hi Snooper.
The Mask was not air fed but it was carbon filtered cost around £30 but I was told that the mask was not what caused the problem, That chemical that is in the 2K seemingly can get through the eyes and the pours in your skin very quickly so idealy i should have had a full suit with the air fed system, but like i said leason learnt mate."
Which is factually wrong!
http://www.hse.gov.uk/mvr/bodyshop/myths/myth9.htm
So I didn't bother to read any further ......
All the FACTS regarding the dangers of Iso's can be found on the HSE website.
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