Will Lotus cars make it to 2015?
Discussion
crofty1984 said:
Captain Muppet said:
dkturbo - you should do climate analysis, all sorts of unrelated data you could imagine links between. You know that CO2 emissions have been rising at the same rate as tampon sales? It's true. Bloody women.
Pun intended? Urgh.Doesn't work though.
bertie said:
I'm not commenting on all the shenanigans...here's my prediction of the next 5 years.......
Eprit gets sorted and launched, others 5 models get forgotten.
Elise gets a real proper update.
Evora bobbles on a while being rather too expensive then gets replace by updated version styled like Elite.
What you reckon?
Its hard to predict what is going to happen, the company is in such a fight for survival it may not survive the next couple of months , let alone the next 5 years.Eprit gets sorted and launched, others 5 models get forgotten.
Elise gets a real proper update.
Evora bobbles on a while being rather too expensive then gets replace by updated version styled like Elite.
What you reckon?
The Evora is really the only viable product they have for sale ATM, and they seem to have a struggle building those that they are lucky enough to have sold.
Problem is the car has been tainted so much by Mr.Bahar , the only way they will get the volume of orders needed to sell some units is to discount the price to attract the bargain hunters, turning it into a loss leader.
Of course they will probably then loose money on every car (as they may well be already), but it may generate some positive shorterm cashflow to enable them to survive to fight another day.
As for the Esprit, I feel its already too late , It should have been for sale 2 years ago, by the time it comes along (If it does) the opposition will have made another leap ahead of it.
I realise this post may be viewed by some as "more rubbish" , but IMO it is well worth bouncing a few ideas around that may possibly offer solutions to help get Group Lotus out of the mess they are well and truly in ATM.
Edited by WayneB on Wednesday 20th June 14:44
Sadly, I think you are right....
the competition have not and will not stand still, the game has moved on a lot in 2 years.
the Esprit needs to be able to compete with the McLaren/Ferrari 458 and to be blunt, that's a pipe dream at the moment, and it's not going to get any easier in 12+ months time.
The Exige S would probably sell OK now, but it's looking like they are really up against it to actually get them made.
Evora is essentially dead, it either needs a massive shot in the arm and re-targeting/pricing, or just kill it now.
the competition have not and will not stand still, the game has moved on a lot in 2 years.
the Esprit needs to be able to compete with the McLaren/Ferrari 458 and to be blunt, that's a pipe dream at the moment, and it's not going to get any easier in 12+ months time.
The Exige S would probably sell OK now, but it's looking like they are really up against it to actually get them made.
Evora is essentially dead, it either needs a massive shot in the arm and re-targeting/pricing, or just kill it now.
Scuffers said:
the Esprit needs to be able to compete with the McLaren/Ferrari 458 and to be blunt, that's a pipe dream at the moment, and it's not going to get any easier in 12+ months time.
What are Lotus missing to be competitive? Genuine question, no fanboi BS, just wondering. Not knowing exactly what the Esprit will be delivering, I'd expect a pretty awesome chassis, a solid N/A V8 and some of the lessons learnt from the Evora in terms of build quality and cabin feel. Given the enthusiasm for the recent models in the press, where are they going to fall short when it comes to the 'halo model'?I appreciate that you don't think the V8 is going to be any good (though still unsure exactly why other than that is isn't a completely clean sheet design). Lotus Engineering seem to do a lot with engines that never quite gets to Lotus cars and I'm as cynical as the next person when it comes to a production hybrid system in a supercar. But, I'm unclear what cause you have to think it's not going to be up to scratch.
As for the +2 years, I don't think anyone designs cars to match the performance of the models their competitors are already producing.
Scuffers said:
the Esprit needs to be able to compete with the McLaren/Ferrari 458 and to be blunt, that's a pipe dream at the moment, and it's not going to get any easier in 12+ months time.
Or does it ? Have Lotus ever really competed with Ferrari in the marketplace - or have they occupied a slightly lower position, producing an aspirational product at a lower price ? I agree that the Bahar vision of the Esprit puts it squarely into a very competitive market, but maybe there's a place for Lotus a little lower down, where they used to sit more naturally ? I've never seen Lotus products as something which win in the Top Trumps world.
Tuna said:
What are Lotus missing to be competitive?
Competitive with who? And sell how many cars per annum?If Lotus want to compete with Ferrari they need a brand that conveys status, because that is what a substantial part of that target market is buying.
If Lotus want to compete with Porsche then they need rock solid engineering, build quality and again, a brand that conveys status.
Imo Lotus is the unconventional choice for people with a bit of individuality, often those who don't want a Porsche. I'm not sure that it is practical for them to break out of their niche, at least not in a reasonable time frame and with sensible budgets.
Were I daft enough to discuss a potential sports car purpose with my wife, which I'm not, she would say get a Porsche. If I were to tell her that Lotus had Porsche level engineering, fantastic road holding, and promised her that she could climb into it without flashing her knickers to the world, she would still say get a Porsche.
I've got an Elise (which she hates), but it was cheap enough to justify as a weekend toy so didn't really need high level family discussions. Unfortunately, that's where I see the Lotus brand - affordable weekend toys.
I believe Lotus attracts a very 'individualistic' buyer, someone who wants something different and is prepared to sacrifice some of the 'qualities' of the likes of Porsche and Ferrari for what Lotus do extremely well i.e. chassis engineering, suspension compliancy, steering feel and so on. Forgive the cliche but they don't want to follow the herd.
After a lifetime obsession and 9 years of ownership, just about every owner I have met falls into this category i.e. they were always going to buy a Lotus and very few have considered any of the alternatives.
As we now know this approach has not been able to sustain Lotus Cars at a profitable level. They have to expand their appeal and become a serious alternative to those who are considering Porsche and Ferrari i.e. not the natural demographic of Lotus fanatics. I don't know if DB's plan would have succeeded but at least, in my view it was heading in the right direction.
As to having to convince one's better half, my wife is a huge fan and fully supported buying the Esprit (twice, the second one costing significantly more than the first). If I didn't work in London during the week it would be my daily drive (its insured for business) but I still manage 7k-8k miles of weekend driving every year. And she is the one who insists we get out for a decent drive every weekend, the last over 500 miles up in the Highlands 2 weeks ago.
You either want a Lotus so buy one, or Lotus simply doesn't figure in your buying decision so you buy a Porsche. I think its that's simple. But it has to change if Lotus is to succeed in the future - Lotus has to become a serious alternative to the wider sports/super car buying fraternity.
After a lifetime obsession and 9 years of ownership, just about every owner I have met falls into this category i.e. they were always going to buy a Lotus and very few have considered any of the alternatives.
As we now know this approach has not been able to sustain Lotus Cars at a profitable level. They have to expand their appeal and become a serious alternative to those who are considering Porsche and Ferrari i.e. not the natural demographic of Lotus fanatics. I don't know if DB's plan would have succeeded but at least, in my view it was heading in the right direction.
As to having to convince one's better half, my wife is a huge fan and fully supported buying the Esprit (twice, the second one costing significantly more than the first). If I didn't work in London during the week it would be my daily drive (its insured for business) but I still manage 7k-8k miles of weekend driving every year. And she is the one who insists we get out for a decent drive every weekend, the last over 500 miles up in the Highlands 2 weeks ago.
You either want a Lotus so buy one, or Lotus simply doesn't figure in your buying decision so you buy a Porsche. I think its that's simple. But it has to change if Lotus is to succeed in the future - Lotus has to become a serious alternative to the wider sports/super car buying fraternity.
bertie said:
I agreee, I don't see the Esprit as a competitor for the F458 or Mclaren MP4/12C, they are £200k cars.
I don't see Lotus as a credible £200k brand, If they price it there expect it to go the way of the overpriced Evora.
OK, if your not going to go after that market, what are you going to aim for?I don't see Lotus as a credible £200k brand, If they price it there expect it to go the way of the overpriced Evora.
the £100-150K market is no less hard to break into, infact, I would say it's harder, your now up against the 911 turbo, the Audi R8, the Lamborghini Gallardo,etc. etc.
now, in that market, you are definitely going to have to play Top-Trumps on the spec sheet, no half-arsed lame approach here is going to cut it, start going on about Lotus handling etc and you might just as well shoot yourself in the head, people will want to see leading 0-62 times, leading top speeds, more power, better equipment/toys, and as well as all this, it had better be dam well bullet-proof built.
residuals in this sector are also hugely important, just look at the 911 turbo S as an example, 2 year old ones are still fetching big money.
Look, I'm trying to be positive here, however, you have to be realistic, pushing out a spammed up, re-bodied Evora with a V8 is not going to cut it.
Hedgerley said:
As we now know this approach has not been able to sustain Lotus Cars at a profitable level. They have to expand their appeal and become a serious alternative to those who are considering Porsche and Ferrari i.e. not the natural demographic of Lotus fanatics. I don't know if DB's plan would have succeeded but at least, in my view it was heading in the right direction.
You either want a Lotus so buy one, or Lotus simply doesn't figure in your buying decision so you buy a Porsche. I think its that's simple. But it has to change if Lotus is to succeed in the future - Lotus has to become a serious alternative to the wider sports/super car buying fraternity.
Sales to the current lotus demographic haven't been sufficient to sustain the operation as it is, agreed. That leaves three options, imo:You either want a Lotus so buy one, or Lotus simply doesn't figure in your buying decision so you buy a Porsche. I think its that's simple. But it has to change if Lotus is to succeed in the future - Lotus has to become a serious alternative to the wider sports/super car buying fraternity.
1) Invest substantial amounts of money in a risky attempt to compete with Porsche, Ferrari et al.
2) Downsize, cut costs and focus on the existing niche.
3) Sell to a bigger player who would benefit from the name.
However, unless they can do something about the outstanding debt (USD420 million?) there's only really option 4, wind it up.
i can agree with this... personally i'm not convinced that the esprit is the right target market especially as a single leap.
best bet would be an evora priced elan as per the coco model.
best bet would be an evora priced elan as per the coco model.
Scuffers said:
OK, if your not going to go after that market, what are you going to aim for?
the £100-150K market is no less hard to break into, infact, I would say it's harder, your now up against the 911 turbo, the Audi R8, the Lamborghini Gallardo,etc. etc.
now, in that market, you are definitely going to have to play Top-Trumps on the spec sheet, no half-arsed lame approach here is going to cut it, start going on about Lotus handling etc and you might just as well shoot yourself in the head, people will want to see leading 0-62 times, leading top speeds, more power, better equipment/toys, and as well as all this, it had better be dam well bullet-proof built.
residuals in this sector are also hugely important, just look at the 911 turbo S as an example, 2 year old ones are still fetching big money.
Look, I'm trying to be positive here, however, you have to be realistic, pushing out a spammed up, re-bodied Evora with a V8 is not going to cut it.
the £100-150K market is no less hard to break into, infact, I would say it's harder, your now up against the 911 turbo, the Audi R8, the Lamborghini Gallardo,etc. etc.
now, in that market, you are definitely going to have to play Top-Trumps on the spec sheet, no half-arsed lame approach here is going to cut it, start going on about Lotus handling etc and you might just as well shoot yourself in the head, people will want to see leading 0-62 times, leading top speeds, more power, better equipment/toys, and as well as all this, it had better be dam well bullet-proof built.
residuals in this sector are also hugely important, just look at the 911 turbo S as an example, 2 year old ones are still fetching big money.
Look, I'm trying to be positive here, however, you have to be realistic, pushing out a spammed up, re-bodied Evora with a V8 is not going to cut it.
Scuffers said:
bertie said:
I agreee, I don't see the Esprit as a competitor for the F458 or Mclaren MP4/12C, they are £200k cars.
I don't see Lotus as a credible £200k brand, If they price it there expect it to go the way of the overpriced Evora.
OK, if your not going to go after that market, what are you going to aim for?I don't see Lotus as a credible £200k brand, If they price it there expect it to go the way of the overpriced Evora.
the £100-150K market is no less hard to break into, infact, I would say it's harder, your now up against the 911 turbo, the Audi R8, the Lamborghini Gallardo,etc. etc.
now, in that market, you are definitely going to have to play Top-Trumps on the spec sheet, no half-arsed lame approach here is going to cut it, start going on about Lotus handling etc and you might just as well shoot yourself in the head, people will want to see leading 0-62 times, leading top speeds, more power, better equipment/toys, and as well as all this, it had better be dam well bullet-proof built.
residuals in this sector are also hugely important, just look at the 911 turbo S as an example, 2 year old ones are still fetching big money.
Look, I'm trying to be positive here, however, you have to be realistic, pushing out a spammed up, re-bodied Evora with a V8 is not going to cut it.
I reckon it's an £80k to £100k car, there is no way they can compete in the £200k Ferrari / Lamborghini / Mclaren market.
If they try to it will be like the Evora, a great car, but overpriced, and even people at Lotus I've spoken to say that!
RYH64E said:
Tuna said:
What are Lotus missing to be competitive?
Competitive with who?It's a genuine question. Lotus' cars used to get tested along side Ferraris and Lamborghinis, but now the consensus is they're not capable of producing a car like that. Their engineering department apparently has had its fingers in the development of everything from Astons to the GT44, yet Lotus themselves are not seen as able to produce a supercar. I'm just asking what people expect or are looking for that they think Lotus won't deliver.
Ozzie Osmond said:
Lotus need to,
1. Adapt the Evora chassis to accept a V8.
2. Buy that V8 on the market - and a suitable transmission.
3. Design a decent 2-seater body to sit on top.
4. Sell it for 911 money.
Anything else will IMO be suicidal.
That's exactly what MJK's MSC plan was about. Originally they were looking at the BMW M5 engine/transmission but towards the end moved to the Lexus LF-A V8 drive train. I remember speaking with Russell Carr and Roger Becker at the Evora launch evening in Edinburgh about the engineering changes going through to accommodate the change. I think the styling had in fact been signed off at that point and I was assured there was a visible link back to the original Esprit. And yes, the price point was £80k I believe.1. Adapt the Evora chassis to accept a V8.
2. Buy that V8 on the market - and a suitable transmission.
3. Design a decent 2-seater body to sit on top.
4. Sell it for 911 money.
Anything else will IMO be suicidal.
Tuna said:
The context was being competitive with the MP4-12C and 458. If the car has a chassis with the reputation that Lotus brings, and a n/a V8 delivering ~600bhp, what is the sticking point? Why would it be 'not worth' what the Mclaren or Ferrari are worth?
It's a genuine question. Lotus' cars used to get tested along side Ferraris and Lamborghinis, but now the consensus is they're not capable of producing a car like that. Their engineering department apparently has had its fingers in the development of everything from Astons to the GT44, yet Lotus themselves are not seen as able to produce a supercar. I'm just asking what people expect or are looking for that they think Lotus won't deliver.
Look, it comes down to the total package and the perceptions around it.It's a genuine question. Lotus' cars used to get tested along side Ferraris and Lamborghinis, but now the consensus is they're not capable of producing a car like that. Their engineering department apparently has had its fingers in the development of everything from Astons to the GT44, yet Lotus themselves are not seen as able to produce a supercar. I'm just asking what people expect or are looking for that they think Lotus won't deliver.
if Lotus were to go up against the MP4-12C and 458, then not only will they have to beet them conclusively in the top trumps comparison, they would also have to convince people that it's a genuine alternative.
Look at the MP4-12C, it's technically a masterpiece, yet every Junro criticized it for not being a 458, can you imagine what they would say about an Esprit in this company?
That's not to say it's not do-able, look at the M600, IMHO it's an overpriced joke at £200K, but some people seem to love it and think it works, the only problem with that is just how many people will pay money for it?
Let's be honest here, none of this is easy.
Tuna said:
The context was being competitive with the MP4-12C and 458. If the car has a chassis with the reputation that Lotus brings, and a n/a V8 delivering ~600bhp, what is the sticking point? Why would it be 'not worth' what the Mclaren or Ferrari are worth?
It's a genuine question. Lotus' cars used to get tested along side Ferraris and Lamborghinis, but now the consensus is they're not capable of producing a car like that. Their engineering department apparently has had its fingers in the development of everything from Astons to the GT44, yet Lotus themselves are not seen as able to produce a supercar. I'm just asking what people expect or are looking for that they think Lotus won't deliver.
It was hard enough for Mclaren to come up with a viable alternative to the 458, and they've had a lot of teething troubles with the cars, now Lotus would have to compete with the 458 and the Mclaren in that sector, I just can't see them pulling it off. It's a genuine question. Lotus' cars used to get tested along side Ferraris and Lamborghinis, but now the consensus is they're not capable of producing a car like that. Their engineering department apparently has had its fingers in the development of everything from Astons to the GT44, yet Lotus themselves are not seen as able to produce a supercar. I'm just asking what people expect or are looking for that they think Lotus won't deliver.
They also have the problem of the existing debt, and need to find someone prepared to throw a huge amount of development money into the project as well as funding the ongoing losses. Much as I like lotus, I just can't see it happening.
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