Will Lotus cars make it to 2015?

[bertie]

Tuna said:

The context was being competitive with the MP4-12C and 458. If the car has a chassis with the reputation that Lotus brings, and a n/a V8 delivering ~600bhp, what is the sticking point? Why would it be 'not worth' what the Mclaren or Ferrari are worth?

It's a genuine question. Lotus' cars used to get tested along side Ferraris and Lamborghinis, but now the consensus is they're not capable of producing a car like that. Their engineering department apparently has had its fingers in the development of everything from Astons to the GT44, yet Lotus themselves are not seen as able to produce a supercar. I'm just asking what people expect or are looking for that they think Lotus won't deliver.

What won't Lotus deliver?....

Fit, finish, but mor than all of that, it's image!

You ask the average man or woman on the street and they don't see Lotus as a prestige brand like Ferrari or Lamborghini, and I can't see how they can change that.

Most people who buy a 458 do so for the image it conveys to other people, not because it's a great drivers car.

[bobo]

i was told yesterday £100-140k ... so big leagues.

bertie said:

So where do you see them pitching the Esprit?

I reckon it's an £80k to £100k car, there is no way they can compete in the £200k Ferrari / Lamborghini / Mclaren market.

If they try to it will be like the Evora, a great car, but overpriced, and even people at Lotus I've spoken to say that!

[Scuffers]

bobo said:

i was told yesterday £100-140k ... so big leagues.

well, all I can say is it better be good out the box....

R8/911 Turbo S/Gallardo/etc. await....

the top-trumps spec it's got to compete with:


Power - 500PS (911) - 525PS (R8) - 560 PS (Gallardo)
0-62 - 3.4 (911) - 3.7 (R8) - 3.7 (Gallardo)
0-100 - 7.4 (911) - 7.6 (R8)
0-120 - 11.8 (R8) 11.8 (Gallardo)
Top speed - 194 (911) - 196 (R8) - 202 (Gallardo)
Weight - 1,595 (911) - 1,620 (R8) - 1,520 (Gallardo)

[bobo]

agreed ..

looking forward to seeing what they come up with though. i think they have the components to do a good job if they can get engineering fully involved and a good designer in coco for this type of product.

was told also that they are building a new esprit factory which is considerable in size, due for completion within the next 8 months or so.

does that make sense to anyone here or more smoke ?

Scuffers said:

well, all I can say is it better be good out the box....

R8/911 Turbo S/Gallardo/etc. await....

the top-trumps spec it's got to compete with:


Power - 500PS (911) - 525PS (R8) - 560 PS (Gallardo)
0-62 - 3.4 (911) - 3.7 (R8) - 3.7 (Gallardo)
0-100 - 7.4 (911) - 7.6 (R8)
0-120 - 11.8 (R8) 11.8 (Gallardo)
Top speed - 194 (911) - 196 (R8) - 202 (Gallardo)
Weight - 1,595 (911) - 1,620 (R8) - 1,520 (Gallardo)

[200bhp]

doggydave said:

Aren't they about to start selling cars in China. Everyone else in the world is relying on the Chinese, why shouldn't Lotus.

I think this will be difficult for Lotus given their portfolio.

Having spent a lot of time in cars all over china, it is easy to see why well off people there drive Porsche Cayennes and not 911s. They buy Range Rovers and not Jag XKRs.

The roads are simply too poorly maintained and too crowded to be driving along in something low with a firm ride.

The road network is getting better all the time wide long stretches of empty motorway opening all the time - But those roads can only be accessed via the terrible roads through the cities and suburbs.

[RYH64E]

200bhp said:

doggydave said:

Aren't they about to start selling cars in China. Everyone else in the world is relying on the Chinese, why shouldn't Lotus.

I think this will be difficult for Lotus given their portfolio.

Having spent a lot of time in cars all over china, it is easy to see why well off people there drive Porsche Cayennes and not 911s. They buy Range Rovers and not Jag XKRs.

The roads are simply too poorly maintained and too crowded to be driving along in something low with a firm ride.

The road network is getting better all the time wide long stretches of empty motorway opening all the time - But those roads can only be accessed via the terrible roads through the cities and suburbs.

Lotus have a deal in place with Youngman in China, that association will make it very difficult for them to sell prestige cars there, it portrays exactly the wrong image for the wealthy Chinese buyers. Image and status really count in China, much more so than in Europe.

I've spent a fair bit of time in China, the people are VERY status/image conscious. My host said that businessmen all want to (he actually said 'have to') drive an Audi or BMW, when they go to meetings with clients they always take a pack of cigarettes to offer around, always the same brand which is the second most expensive brand on offer, these things are important over there. There were plenty of Lamborghinis around, a few Ferraris and I saw a brand new but beat up Maserati. The society is very polarised, the poor can afford nothing, the rich (and there are plenty of them) want top name brands. As you say, the roads are too poorly maintained for performance to be a serious criteria.

[bertie]

Scuffers said:

bobo said:

i was told yesterday £100-140k ... so big leagues.

well, all I can say is it better be good out the box....

R8/911 Turbo S/Gallardo/etc. await....

the top-trumps spec it's got to compete with:


Power - 500PS (911) - 525PS (R8) - 560 PS (Gallardo)
0-62 - 3.4 (911) - 3.7 (R8) - 3.7 (Gallardo)
0-100 - 7.4 (911) - 7.6 (R8)
0-120 - 11.8 (R8) 11.8 (Gallardo)
Top speed - 194 (911) - 196 (R8) - 202 (Gallardo)
Weight - 1,595 (911) - 1,620 (R8) - 1,520 (Gallardo)

Gallardo is in the same bracket as 458 amd Mp4/12c, around the £170k mark

Audi R8 / Porsche 911 are the marks here.

I think the Esprit needs to be more affordable, £100k tops.

[Toaster]

bertie said:

Gallardo is in the same bracket as 458 amd Mp4/12c, around the £170k mark

Audi R8 / Porsche 911 are the marks here.

I think the Esprit needs to be more affordable, £100k tops.

Skoda was the but of all jokes Audi was rubbish BMW made bubble cars.......a new strategy some vision, real investment anything is possible, its only an opinion but it is possible for lotus to re-emerge spectacuarly.

If the Esprit is priced right what every right people will buy it

[otolith]

bertie said:

Most people who buy a 458 do so for the image it conveys to other people, not because it's a great drivers car.

What a depressing idea. I hope you are wrong.

[bertie]

otolith said:

bertie said:

Most people who buy a 458 do so for the image it conveys to other people, not because it's a great drivers car.

What a depressing idea. I hope you are wrong.

Depressing but true, yes there are people like me who love them for the drive and engineering, but I reckon there are a good proportion who have no idea how good or otherwise they drive compared to other things.

Lets be honest, if Skoda launched the best drivers car in the world at £200k, would you?

[otolith]

bertie said:

Lets be honest, if Skoda launched the best drivers car in the world at £200k, would you?

Apart from questions of "would I spend 200k on any car" and "would I get my money back if I sold it", yes. Anyway, just stick a Bugatti badge on it

[bertie]

otolith said:

bertie said:

Lets be honest, if Skoda launched the best drivers car in the world at £200k, would you?

Apart from questions of "would I spend 200k on any car" and "would I get my money back if I sold it", yes. Anyway, just stick a Bugatti badge on it

Would you. really though?

Imagine the conversation down the pub...

"Just won the lottery, bought myself a Skoda, its the fastest car in the world.."
"You nob head, Why didn't you get a Ferrari or one of them Mclarens?"

Then come resale time......


"Im afraid sir no one wants Skodas, best I can do is £25k on SOR"

I tell you, in reality you wouldn't.

[otolith]

Of those, the practical issue of resale is the only thing that would bother me.

[hebbhog]

What keeps crossing my mind about the future of Lotus is question marks about the intention of DRB Hicom.

It may be worth noting that DRB Hicom signed an agreement with Potenza Sports Cars (aka Westfield) back in 2010 to produce and develop a range of sports cars built in Malaysia.

Could be nothing in it but you never know....

[Tuna]

Toaster said:

If the Esprit is priced right what every right people will buy it

I think people overestimate the 'brand loyalty' that exists in the market. Most folk buy what's cool at the moment - which has allowed Koenigsegg and Pagini to gain a great reputation in only a few years. You could argue Audi's radical overhaul of Lamborghini was successful despite the brands, rather than because of them.

At the same time, the established players aren't exactly unassailable - Ferrari seems to bounce between being cool and seriously uncool, and for all that Mclaren have engineered down the tolerances in their cars to zero, the end experience hasn't exactly re-written the rule book the way the F1 did.

Each car company is only as good as their latest cars, and that works both ways. Both the Esprit and the Elise re-wrote what Lotus was 'about'. All this finger in the air stuff about how much a new Esprit should cost makes no sense. If it makes the Mclaren look dull, then there's your price point. If on the other hand it's no more thrilling than an Audi TT, then it has to be priced accordingly. Until we see exactly what's in the end package, it's impossible to give it a price.

What we do know is that the figures they're aiming for do put it squarely in 458 / MP4-12C territory. More power, less weight and styling that is slap bang in the middle of that niche. In a way it's probably got an easier job than the Evora in that it's very well established what people expect from 'that kind of car'. The comparison will be easy to make between the three cars, which also makes it very much easier for Lotus to focus on what it is they're delivering.

[Hedgerley]

If Lotus can deliver on this -

At the unveiling of the Evora S model in San Jose in June 2011, Lotus Cars USA PR boss, Kevin Smith, confirmed that the Esprit supercar would be getting Lotus’ in-house V8 engine and both a manual and a dual-clutch transmission. This V8 engine was originally said to deliver between 550 - 570 HP, but actually achieved 570 HP at around 9000rpm and 398 lb-ft of torque at a bit higher than 3000rpm. Lotus Chief Technical Officer, Wolf Zimmermann, says this engine can reach up to 630 HP at 9,400 rpm and 424 lb-ft of torque between 5,500 and 6,000rpm. The V8 weighs in at about 375 lbs, which is about 176 lbs lighter than the original 5.0L V8 Lotus was going to borrow from Lexus. It will be used for both the Esprit and, as confirmed by Smith, an even more exotic Elite.

and wrap it in something appropriately exotic (the concept is pretty good in my view) with some tech built in and deliver at a competitive price point - originally announced at £110k but now possibly up to £140k - then I think they will be on to a winner. With the usual caveats of quality, reliability etc.....

[V8 FOU]

Agree ^^

The fact that is is a Lotus engine helps a lot. with a Lexus engine it would be a different story.

It also has the name. Lotus Esprit. That still means a lot in the car world.

People often have to justify and/or appologise for a BMW /Audi/ even Ferrari.
What do you drive? " A Lotus Esprit, the new model" How cool does that sound?
If it is a BMW or Audi, the question follows, which one? RS / M3 etc.
If it is a Ferrari, most will give you the bird, if not in your face, behind your back....
A Maclaren? "What's that?" Probably......

If Lotus can produce this as suggested above, and work on that kudos, it will be a winner.

[Scuffers]

Hedgerley said:

If Lotus can deliver on this -

At the unveiling of the Evora S model in San Jose in June 2011, Lotus Cars USA PR boss, Kevin Smith, confirmed that the Esprit supercar would be getting Lotus’ in-house V8 engine and both a manual and a dual-clutch transmission. This V8 engine was originally said to deliver between 550 - 570 HP, but actually achieved 570 HP at around 9000rpm and 398 lb-ft of torque at a bit higher than 3000rpm. Lotus Chief Technical Officer, Wolf Zimmermann, says this engine can reach up to 630 HP at 9,400 rpm and 424 lb-ft of torque between 5,500 and 6,000rpm. The V8 weighs in at about 375 lbs, which is about 176 lbs lighter than the original 5.0L V8 Lotus was going to borrow from Lexus. It will be used for both the Esprit and, as confirmed by Smith, an even more exotic Elite.

and wrap it in something appropriately exotic (the concept is pretty good in my view) with some tech built in and deliver at a competitive price point - originally announced at £110k but now possibly up to £140k - then I think they will be on to a winner. With the usual caveats of quality, reliability etc.....

well, on the face of it, the engine stats are bks!

just read that again, so we have an engine that's good for 398lbft but then suddenly 424lbft?

as has been said before many times now, it may well be a good engine, but it's start in life was not as a Lotus design, reading the quote above just makes me cringe.

[bertie]

V8 FOU said:

Agree ^^

The fact that is is a Lotus engine helps a lot. with a Lexus engine it would be a different story.

It also has the name. Lotus Esprit. That still means a lot in the car world.

People often have to justify and/or appologise for a BMW /Audi/ even Ferrari.
What do you drive? " A Lotus Esprit, the new model" How cool does that sound?
If it is a BMW or Audi, the question follows, which one? RS / M3 etc.
If it is a Ferrari, most will give you the bird, if not in your face, behind your back....
A Maclaren? "What's that?" Probably......

If Lotus can produce this as suggested above, and work on that kudos, it will be a winner.

I've driven Ferraris and Lamborghinis for 12 years now and I've never ever had anyone "give me the bird", I've only ever had great reactions from people.

And I'm sorry, but if you ask any of your non-PH mates, normal non car enthusiasts, what do they think of Lotus and what do they think of Ferrari, if they have heard of Lotus they will say they make cheap basic sports cars.

[bobo]

being the biggest limp wrister on this forum and wanting pas on my exige v6 it occurs to me that an engine with those stats may need servicing every 2 weeks lol. wont go down too well (puntastic)...

Scuffers said:

well, on the face of it, the engine stats are bks!

just read that again, so we have an engine that's good for 398lbft but then suddenly 424lbft?

as has been said before many times now, it may well be a good engine, but it's start in life was not as a Lotus design, reading the quote above just makes me cringe.