Will Lotus cars make it to 2015?
Discussion
bertie said:
if they have heard of Lotus they will say they make cheap basic sports cars.
This shows you how much reputations can change and how quickly. Ask the same question in the 80's and you'd get - "They make that James Bond car", or "that car in Pretty Woman". Then, they had a reputation for expensive and desirable exotica. Before that it was the Elan - a seriously cool car. In the 90's the Elise was a complete surprise - Lotus made expensive cars for the gentleman driver.The point is, right now Lotus' modern reputation is based on one car, the Elise. Just as Mclaren's name is only associated with the MP4-12C (and the F1 is largely unheard of by the general public). That can change in an instant. In the age of the internet, a brand can trend overnight and a remarkable car can be seen worldwide on the day of launch.
Scuffers said:
Hedgerley said:
If Lotus can deliver on this -
At the unveiling of the Evora S model in San Jose in June 2011, Lotus Cars USA PR boss, Kevin Smith, confirmed that the Esprit supercar would be getting Lotus’ in-house V8 engine and both a manual and a dual-clutch transmission. This V8 engine was originally said to deliver between 550 - 570 HP, but actually achieved 570 HP at around 9000rpm and 398 lb-ft of torque at a bit higher than 3000rpm. Lotus Chief Technical Officer, Wolf Zimmermann, says this engine can reach up to 630 HP at 9,400 rpm and 424 lb-ft of torque between 5,500 and 6,000rpm. The V8 weighs in at about 375 lbs, which is about 176 lbs lighter than the original 5.0L V8 Lotus was going to borrow from Lexus. It will be used for both the Esprit and, as confirmed by Smith, an even more exotic Elite.
and wrap it in something appropriately exotic (the concept is pretty good in my view) with some tech built in and deliver at a competitive price point - originally announced at £110k but now possibly up to £140k - then I think they will be on to a winner. With the usual caveats of quality, reliability etc.....
well, on the face of it, the engine stats are bAt the unveiling of the Evora S model in San Jose in June 2011, Lotus Cars USA PR boss, Kevin Smith, confirmed that the Esprit supercar would be getting Lotus’ in-house V8 engine and both a manual and a dual-clutch transmission. This V8 engine was originally said to deliver between 550 - 570 HP, but actually achieved 570 HP at around 9000rpm and 398 lb-ft of torque at a bit higher than 3000rpm. Lotus Chief Technical Officer, Wolf Zimmermann, says this engine can reach up to 630 HP at 9,400 rpm and 424 lb-ft of torque between 5,500 and 6,000rpm. The V8 weighs in at about 375 lbs, which is about 176 lbs lighter than the original 5.0L V8 Lotus was going to borrow from Lexus. It will be used for both the Esprit and, as confirmed by Smith, an even more exotic Elite.
and wrap it in something appropriately exotic (the concept is pretty good in my view) with some tech built in and deliver at a competitive price point - originally announced at £110k but now possibly up to £140k - then I think they will be on to a winner. With the usual caveats of quality, reliability etc.....
ks!just read that again, so we have an engine that's good for 398lbft but then suddenly 424lbft?
as has been said before many times now, it may well be a good engine, but it's start in life was not as a Lotus design, reading the quote above just makes me cringe.
Has achieved "398 lb-ft of torque at a bit higher than 3000rpm"
Can achieve "424 lb-ft of torque between 5,500 and 6,000rpm."
An engine that isn't yet in production and the chap responsible for it thinks it has another 6% more torque to come (at higher revs, which is where you would expect it). Seems reasonable.
Tuna said:
458 / MP4-12C territory. More power, less weight and styling that is slap bang in the middle of that niche. In a way it's probably got an easier job than the Evora in that it's very well established what people expect from 'that kind of car'. The comparison will be easy to make between the three cars, which also makes it very much easier for Lotus to focus on what it is they're delivering.
I did see a black MP4-12C on the M1 being driven sensibly what struck me was the lack of presence it had almost mundano (please don't flame its just an opinion) No here is a thought if you have every seen this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIrtwZ-DV58&fea... Caterham survival of the fastest its Simon Nearn trying to have a new Icon developed by Reynard......a car @ around £20K with a Carbon tub so these exotic materials could be used for affordable high performance sports cars at a reasonable price. It will be interesting to see what Caterham's new road car will be like. who knows manufacturing could be 3D printing chassis and body parts soon
So the exotic machines are possibly well over priced with less = more kings new clothes philosophy, Porsche have done this.
Turning thoughts back to lotus it may be that automation and hand finish is the way to go to eliminate what the perceived build issues are. hopefully there will still be an entry Elise / Exige type product as well as higher end ones. But what ever happens Lotus is one very special brand
Toaster said:
I did see a black MP4-12C on the M1 being driven sensibly what struck me was the lack of presence it had almost mundano (please don't flame its just an opinion)
I'm with you on that, and that also applies to the shots of the new Esprit seen to date. Every efficient and aerodynamic, but nothing like the impact the original Esprit had. It's ironic (perhaps) that Audi (in the guise of Lamborghini) make cars with more theatre.Toaster said:
No here is a thought if you have every seen this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIrtwZ-DV58&fea... Caterham survival of the fastest its Simon Nearn trying to have a new Icon developed by Reynard......a car @ around £20K with a Carbon tub so these exotic materials could be used for affordable high performance sports cars at a reasonable price.
Hang on, I've just watched that (very interesting it was too) but they partnered up with Reynard to make the car in 6 months, 2 years later nothing had been done, then Reynard went under and Caterham decided not to develop a new car.I can't see how you can conclude anything from that except Caterham are in a tricky niche, too small to take on the big boys, but if they don't change they might get squeezed out..........remind you of the same dilema someone in Norfolk has?
bertie said:
Hang on, I've just watched that (very interesting it was too) but they partnered up with Reynard to make the car in 6 months, 2 years later nothing had been done, then Reynard went under and Caterham decided not to develop a new car.
I can't see how you can conclude anything from that except Caterham are in a tricky niche, too small to take on the big boys, but if they don't change they might get squeezed out..........remind you of the same dilema someone in Norfolk has?
Ok so that Video was started some 11-12 years ago, when you can hear Simon Nearn say that he couldnt imagine the 7 still being produced in 20 years..........well 12 years down the line and they still are. The next point is they wanted a carbon chassied car for £20K now it may have been more than this but why should a carbon chassied car be £100K?I can't see how you can conclude anything from that except Caterham are in a tricky niche, too small to take on the big boys, but if they don't change they might get squeezed out..........remind you of the same dilema someone in Norfolk has?
Yes I do see similar issues but withthe right finance, engineering and guidance thay can succeed, I also think that many are missing the point of the Evora it is one heck of a sports car.
Toaster said:
Ok so that Video was started some 11-12 years ago, when you can hear Simon Nearn say that he couldnt imagine the 7 still being produced in 20 years..........well 12 years down the line and they still are. The next point is they wanted a carbon chassied car for £20K now it may have been more than this but why should a carbon chassied car be £100K?
Yes I do see similar issues but withthe right finance, engineering and guidance thay can succeed, I also think that many are missing the point of the Evora it is one heck of a sports car.
My take on that is that you can't do a carbon car for £20k, Mclaren have just lowered the price point to £170k and it's taken them years, millions of £, a technical partner and a brand new (patented) process to do it!Yes I do see similar issues but withthe right finance, engineering and guidance thay can succeed, I also think that many are missing the point of the Evora it is one heck of a sports car.
Evora is a great car, but it's priced wrong.
At £40k I can see it, at £65k it's nudging up against Porsche 911s which have had how much cpent developing them? No way it can compete as an overall package.
All IMHO obviously...
The new EVO magazine previews a slew of new supercars coming up in the next few years. Interestingly it pitches new Esprit up against new Honda NSX. Nothing much is new - if they can deliver on the promise, if Lotus survive, blah blah - but the biggest shock is their view on the price.
£160k. Discuss.
The same issue has a review of the Elise S vs Boxter 2.7. The Elise shades it, 5 stars to 4.5. But as they say, that's when you want to drive it rather than just drive. The Boxster is the better all rounder but in doing so comprises on the stuff EVO are interested in. Both are great cars.
£160k. Discuss.
The same issue has a review of the Elise S vs Boxter 2.7. The Elise shades it, 5 stars to 4.5. But as they say, that's when you want to drive it rather than just drive. The Boxster is the better all rounder but in doing so comprises on the stuff EVO are interested in. Both are great cars.
KTM sell a carbon fibre bodied car for 50k.
65k might be a bit rich, but I can't see the Evora as a 40k car, I don't think you can reasonably expect Lotus to make a profit at that level. There is a perception that Lotus cars should be given away in a packet of cornflakes. I find people's perceptions of what does constitute value for money bizarre, especially where German metal is concerned.
65k might be a bit rich, but I can't see the Evora as a 40k car, I don't think you can reasonably expect Lotus to make a profit at that level. There is a perception that Lotus cars should be given away in a packet of cornflakes. I find people's perceptions of what does constitute value for money bizarre, especially where German metal is concerned.
Hedgerley said:
The new EVO magazine previews a slew of new supercars coming up in the next few years. Interestingly it pitches new Esprit up against new Honda NSX. Nothing much is new - if they can deliver on the promise, if Lotus survive, blah blah - but the biggest shock is their view on the price.
£160k. Discuss.
The same issue has a review of the Elise S vs Boxter 2.7. The Elise shades it, 5 stars to 4.5. But as they say, that's when you want to drive it rather than just drive. The Boxster is the better all rounder but in doing so comprises on the stuff EVO are interested in. Both are great cars.
I think the New NSX will be a huge success for Honda (Acura)over here in North America, Honda will devote its mega resorces to making sure its nigh on perfect as they do on all of their product line.£160k. Discuss.
The same issue has a review of the Elise S vs Boxter 2.7. The Elise shades it, 5 stars to 4.5. But as they say, that's when you want to drive it rather than just drive. The Boxster is the better all rounder but in doing so comprises on the stuff EVO are interested in. Both are great cars.
As for the 160k Esprit (roughly $240k here),I just dont think it will fly.
Most of the intelegent car enthusiasts I know have lost all faith in Lotus over the last 3 years,even If the new Esprit is better than sliced bread they will still be suspicious of the thing and will stick to their Porsches which they know and trust.
Me, I dont plan on spending $240k on any car, so count me out.
disagree, the giugiaro esprit (a bloody benchmark in design) changed the game as did the first cCountach. these things don't come along very often. if you can get over the inherent dislike for the Italia (or rather some of the people that drive them - mostly classless scum i admit) for a min you may see that its also a game changer but to a lesser degree, particularly the completely new and individual treatment of the doors and rear 3/4 which will be ripped off for the next 15 years no doubt (see coco's esprit!!!).
the new esprit has that same magic ingredient that the italia has but that the Mp 124c hasn't which was a big mistake by ron who let geeks style that car - you need someone that understands passion and nothing else - geeks don't get passion they get other stuff tho, the mp124cs cockpit is the best bar none, ergonomic perfection indeed (if you can get the doors to open lol). you wont see one styling feature (of which there are few) mp124c ripped off by another manufacturer going forward imho. the last thing you want is an esprit like that.
if (a big one i admit) lotus can get the dynamics and price right the esprit will sell as it looks, no doubt. the italia is the benchmark for design and for good reason. why not pinch a bit here and there? its what lambo did with giugiaros esprit. they all do it ... cocos no fool
what do you want ? another 911 or an esprit that has a few influences from other italian exotica?
the new esprit has that same magic ingredient that the italia has but that the Mp 124c hasn't which was a big mistake by ron who let geeks style that car - you need someone that understands passion and nothing else - geeks don't get passion they get other stuff tho, the mp124cs cockpit is the best bar none, ergonomic perfection indeed (if you can get the doors to open lol). you wont see one styling feature (of which there are few) mp124c ripped off by another manufacturer going forward imho. the last thing you want is an esprit like that.
if (a big one i admit) lotus can get the dynamics and price right the esprit will sell as it looks, no doubt. the italia is the benchmark for design and for good reason. why not pinch a bit here and there? its what lambo did with giugiaros esprit. they all do it ... cocos no fool
what do you want ? another 911 or an esprit that has a few influences from other italian exotica?
Tuna said:
I'm with you on that, and that also applies to the shots of the new Esprit seen to date. Every efficient and aerodynamic, but nothing like the impact the original Esprit had. It's ironic (perhaps) that Audi (in the guise of Lamborghini) make cars with more theatre.
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