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bobo
1,056 posts
147 months
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marshalla
8,035 posts
70 months
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bobo said: Looks like a variant on Gordon Murray's T25. Maybe a styling exercise ? Frankly, Lotus could do a lot worse than doing a deal with Murray to produce the T25 and learn how to use the istream production system.
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Tuna
4,512 posts
153 months
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marshalla said: Looks like a variant on Gordon Murray's T25. Maybe a styling exercise ?
Frankly, Lotus could do a lot worse than doing a deal with Murray to produce the T25 and learn how to use the istream production system. From what I've seen, iStream is good because of what you leave out of a car. It works by getting very cheap and/or lower quality components to work well enough together to function as a vehicle. I'm sure I'm doing Murray a great disservice describing it like that, but you get the idea. That doesn't fit well with sports car manufacture where you choose materials and processes for their absolute high quality rather than cost. In anything other than a developing nation, setting up an iStream factory would seem to me to be a huge gamble. In Western society, the T25 would be treated more as a lifestyle accessory. Add in the low cost (which means slim margins) and you'd be utterly dependent on it taking off as 'fashionable' to be able to recoup your investment. In a developing nation, low cost, efficient motoring might be seen more as a necessity, so your confidence in getting some returns would be much higher. I'd expect the first iStream/T25 production to happen in Mexico, China or Thailand rather than anywhere in Europe or North America. That's if it happens at all. I'm not sure if the T25 is a serious proposition for manufacture, or a calling card for the bigger concept. Certainly Murray has said he's now working on the T26, T27 and so on..
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otolith
19,407 posts
73 months
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I'd like to see a small, quick, affordable sports car spun off the iStream process, just to remind people of how much of what they think is important, isn't.
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Scuffers
10,418 posts
143 months
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otolith said: I'd like to see a small, quick, affordable sports car spun off the iStream process, just to remind people of how much of what they think is important, isn't. not sure the process has anything to do with this though, you still need to design a car people (A) want and (B) can afford.
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Tuna
4,512 posts
153 months
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otolith said: I'd like to see a small, quick, affordable sports car spun off the iStream process, just to remind people of how much of what they think is important, isn't. iStream doesn't leave stuff out in the sports car sense. It leaves out things like frame rigidity and more than one access to the car. Things like the extruded chassis of the Elise, or having two doors, a boot and a separate removable roof are all the exact opposite of the iStream concept. I don't want to do down the iStream process - it's very clever and deserves a lot of attention, but it's very clever at a very tightly defined process which isn't sports car manufacture. The parts of it that can be applied to sports cars already have been - for instance, it makes huge savings by avoiding steel presses and components that require specialist machining. That's exactly what everyone from Lotus to Locost do already to make it possible to produce niche vehicles that don't cost a crippling amount.
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otolith
19,407 posts
73 months
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Scuffers said: otolith said: I'd like to see a small, quick, affordable sports car spun off the iStream process, just to remind people of how much of what they think is important, isn't. not sure the process has anything to do with this though, you still need to design a car people (A) want and (B) can afford. Sure. I think it would probably be too cheap for Lotus to sell without damaging the brand, but for those people who think Lotus should be building properly lightweight cars and undercutting the MX-5 on price and beating it on performance, a sports car built on the same principals as the T25 could be spot on. The T25 is 575kg, 51bhp and targeted at selling for c. 6k. By all accounts it handles very well, the three seat packaging works and it is properly crashworthy. Could the same principles deliver something more like 750kg, 150bhp and 12k? The central seating position looks fantastic. Even if it were a tandem or even a single seater, that sort of money makes it a much more affordable kind of toy for a lot more people.
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Scuffers
10,418 posts
143 months
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short answer - NO.
Nearest thing to this would be the Smart Roadster, and they stopped making it because?
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otolith
19,407 posts
73 months
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Because it was a bit s  t?
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otolith
19,407 posts
73 months
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Tuna said: iStream doesn't leave stuff out in the sports car sense. It leaves out things like frame rigidity and more than one access to the car. Things like the extruded chassis of the Elise, or having two doors, a boot and a separate removable roof are all the exact opposite of the iStream concept.
I don't want to do down the iStream process - it's very clever and deserves a lot of attention, but it's very clever at a very tightly defined process which isn't sports car manufacture. The parts of it that can be applied to sports cars already have been - for instance, it makes huge savings by avoiding steel presses and components that require specialist machining. That's exactly what everyone from Lotus to Locost do already to make it possible to produce niche vehicles that don't cost a crippling amount. I don't think it's right for Lotus - but something like the T25 but less upright and more powerful would be a hoot, and if the T25 can really be sold for 6k, it could be very cheap.
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Scuffers
10,418 posts
143 months
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otolith said: Because it was a bit s t? nope. basically it cost almost as much to make as they sold for (sound familiar?)
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otolith
19,407 posts
73 months
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Scuffers said: otolith said: Because it was a bit s t? nope. basically it cost almost as much to make as they sold for (sound familiar?) If Murray is right that the T25 can be sold profitably for £6000, why would a sports car built on the same principles be too expensive to make?
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bobo
1,056 posts
147 months
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define sports car ? .... i assume you mean something quick ? otolith said: If Murray is right that the T25 can be sold profitably for £6000, why would a sports car built on the same principles be too expensive to make?
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MiseryStreak
758 posts
76 months
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otolith said: Could the same principles deliver something more like 750kg, 150bhp and 12k? Funnily enough those criteria led me to purchase my Elan. I want a T25, please Lotus, buy it off Gordon, but keep him on as lead consultant. Gordon's favourite car is the Elan too.
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Scuffers
10,418 posts
143 months
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otolith said: Scuffers said: otolith said: Because it was a bit s t? nope. basically it cost almost as much to make as they sold for (sound familiar?) If Murray is right that the T25 can be sold profitably for £6000, why would a sports car built on the same principles be too expensive to make? why do you think that this kind of cheap build will work for a sports car? IE torsional rigidity anyone?
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otolith
19,407 posts
73 months
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bobo said: otolith said: If Murray is right that the T25 can be sold profitably for £6000, why would a sports car built on the same principles be too expensive to make? define sports car ? .... i assume you mean something quick ? I'd say that is one of the less important factors in making a sports car - but something with S1 Elise pace would be plenty quick enough.
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otolith
19,407 posts
73 months
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Scuffers said: otolith said: Scuffers said: otolith said: Because it was a bit s t? nope. basically it cost almost as much to make as they sold for (sound familiar?) If Murray is right that the T25 can be sold profitably for £6000, why would a sports car built on the same principles be too expensive to make? why do you think that this kind of cheap build will work for a sports car? IE torsional rigidity anyone? Doesn't do a Caterham much harm does it? As I understand it, modern levels of torsional stiffness are way beyond what is really needed for handling and largely driven by the demands for perceived build quality. Someone should prod Sam_68, it's one of his favourite rants.
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bertie
5,632 posts
153 months
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MiseryStreak said: otolith said: Could the same principles deliver something more like 750kg, 150bhp and 12k? Funnily enough those criteria led me to purchase my Elan. I want a T25, please Lotus, buy it off Gordon, but keep him on as lead consultant. Gordon's favourite car is the Elan too. If only you could buy an Elan for £12k these days!!!
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Scuffers
10,418 posts
143 months
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otolith said: Doesn't do a Caterham much harm does it?
As I understand it, modern levels of torsional stiffness are way beyond what is really needed for handling and largely driven by the demands for perceived build quality. Someone should prod Sam_68, it's one of his favourite rants. no, but that's kind of a different kettle of fish, a Caterham, good as they are don't do high G corners and also don;t have huge weight either, thus it's not really an issue(asides the fact that they are de-dion rear ends). (Also, a closed car that lacks rigidity will also squeak like a bastered!)
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bobo
1,056 posts
147 months
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well i see no reason why you couldn't make something fun, mid engine electric/efficient and cheap'ish if its setup as a volume trade with predominant use of plastics. i suggested this before..... and the first to market will make a killing ... if it looks good. so far none of the 'hippy' cars do (apart from the twizzy in its context!) ... there's an edge there already, let alone leveraging off the lotus brand name, heritage and history. make a 150/250kgs electric/2 stoke/whatevers clever road legal single seater like a lotus 49 ... interchangeable single body mold so you can swap it off for the shell of a 962 .... all low cost. paint it yourself... a mix between a RC car and a mini electric sports car. the geeks would go nuts for it frankly.... focus on dynamics and handling and low speed fun. its all doable..... and a big enough global market. otolith said: I'd say that is one of the less important factors in making a sports car - but something with S1 Elise pace would be plenty quick enough.
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