Will Lotus cars make it to 2015?

[Toaster]

RYH64E said:

Yes, there would be several disappointed potential Lotus buyers, maybe as many as a few.

Lotus builds a Porsche look alike sales = 0 good strategy RYH64E

[RYH64E]

Toaster said:

Lotus builds a Porsche look alike sales = 0 good strategy RYH64E

And they're doing so well with their current strategy.

[Scuffers]

Toaster said:

OK Ozzie its not about if its 'any good' because it is good, my guess there s a mixed bag of reasons why the slow down in sales. One is the down turn of the economy, another the uncertainty of Lotus as a brand. MKJ gave the car a great launch and how DB handled it after him is debatable but what you are stating is that your bias and preference for Porsche taints your view. I would never buy a Porsche possibly similar reasons that you wont by a Lotus. But heck its yours your proud of it and I am not going to rain on your parade but go be a Porsche fan boy on their threads and leave us Lotus Fan boys alone :-)

Clearly there are many who do not agree with your views and there maybe an equal number that do who cares. There are probably many cars you wont buy/dont like so what go and chat with those who share your values.... I do mean that in a friendly way

That's just a cop out...

I have zero intentions of buying a porka, i own a lotus, i am never going to own an evora.

[otolith]

RYH64E said:

Toaster said:

Lotus builds a Porsche look alike sales = 0 good strategy RYH64E

And they're doing so well with their current strategy.

Why don't you just go and buy a Porsche Porsche, if that's what you want? Why do you want Lotus to build Lotus Porsches?

[limpsfield]

There are some right miserable twunts on here aren't there?

[Ozzie Osmond]

Toaster said:

OK Ozzie its not about if its 'any good' because it is good, my guess there s a mixed bag of reasons why the slow down in sales. One is the down turn of the economy, another the uncertainty of Lotus as a brand. MKJ gave the car a great launch

Clearly there are many who do not agree with your views and there maybe an equal number that do who cares.

You are absolutely right to debate this stuff in a friendly way and I'm happy to join you in that.

Perhaps the questions might be rephrased as,

1. If the Evora is on target for the market, why isn't it finding customers?
and
2. IF (that's a huge IF which I don't subscribe to) it's a brand/snobbery/image thing, surely Lotus might as well shut the factory tomorrow because there is no hope?

Anyway, as I've said earlier in this thread I want to see a viable Lotus producing great sportscars which sell well in the market.

MJK got the Evora all round his neck. But leaving that aside, "Build it and they will come!!".

[Offspeccer]

Ozzie Osmond said:

Perhaps the questions might be rephrased as,

1. If the Evora is on target for the market, why isn't it finding customers?
and
2. IF (that's a huge IF which I don't subscribe to) it's a brand/snobbery/image thing, surely Lotus might as well shut the factory tomorrow because there is no hope?
.

I think thats two good questions. So lets take a look.

Clearly Lotus' sales figures are not good, but do we actually know how they are comparing to the competition in terms of year to year performance? Its one thing to say that the Evora has not sold well, but who is selling a lot of £60k sports cars in 2012 and how many did they sell in 2011, 2010, 2009 etc? I wouls not be surprised if the trend is relatively downwards overall throughout, given the economic climate, along with any good sales performances being driven by new markets opening up such as China, Russia etc

I have had a brief look through internet (read unreliable) sources, that suggest the Porsche comparison that has so much dominated this thread only achieved UK sales in 2009 of 5280 cars across the entire ranged and 6784 in 2010, which perhaps shows that I am immediately wrong about who has achieved growth, but my firm expectation is that the growth will have come from Panamera and Cayenne sales, or will be heavily influenced by it. Other stats by comparison for UK sales (source AM Online):
2009 2010 %change

Aston Martin 1183 1080 -8.7
Corvette 36 2 -95%
Lotus 485 577 19

In fact, trying to find comparitors from other specialist sports car marques is very difficult. Other unreliable Morgan blog sites suggest they sold around 500 new cars in 2009 but i could not find 2010 figures. TVR is long dead but apparently made around 400 cars in 2005 before it went pop.

And whilst there is a hell of a lot of doom and gloom around Lotus at the moment, their reported sales figures for 2011 of around 1000 cars perhaps does not actually seem so bad. Clearly, their UK sales figures are not too shabby compared to someone like Aston Martin for 2009/10, but no doubt they flag way behind for international sales. That needs to be addressed.

It also needs to tie in with their poor dealer network. Its not easy to buy a Lotus. Its bloody easy to buy a Porsche. Sales of premium cars in this market are going to be dominated by sales in certain geographic regions. Do Lotus have a premium showroom in Mayfair? No (Porsche do). Do they have a showroom in Canary Wharf? No (Porsche have two). What about the oil men in Aberdeen? Thats a no again for Lotus. You have to go down to Edinburgh to spend your bonus. Porsche will take your money in Aberdeen.

I cannot be alone in thinking the above is not rocket science, but maybe the reason why Lotus are struggling has less to do with the cars themselves and more about the sales process, compared to say, the ease of walking down the road and buying a Porsche.

The fact that there are no Lotus showrooms in premium sales locations is no doubt tied to the fact that Proton make low-end cars and are not interested on spending money in premium location showrooms, which ties in to a wider point, which is the lack of synergy between Lotus and Proton (as far as my layman eyes can tell).

Compare with some of the more successful tie-ups, if rumour is believed, such as Audi / Lambo. Lots of cross-over between two players in a similar starting point in the market (premium) so that the Lambo range sits above the Audi R8 and the fleets super cars. No doubt the Audi S and RS ranges benefit from Lambo know-how as well. I don't know whether Audi would ever market R8 and RS models alongside Lambos, as they probably want to maintain the prestige of Lambo, but they certainly could do so.

Anyway, all of the above means that my tuppence amounts to Lotus are doing ok for a company that sells in the wrong countries and in the wrong places in the countries in does sell. Sort that out and you could see a load of lovely bankers / oil traders driving an Evora later in 2013.....

[Scuffers]

As you seem to be struggling for numbers, SMMT is your friend...

Suffice to say, your theory is somewhat flawed.

[Offspeccer]

Thanks for the tip-off. It turns out I was quoting SMMT figures for 09 and 10. The picture for 11 and 12 does not change my view much.

Data for Aston Martin shows another 9% drop in sales between 2011/12, Maserati fell 20% in the same period. Corvette fall off the list entirely. Yes, Porsche continue to buck the trend but I cannot see (yet) sales figures that exclude the successful Panamera and Cayenne. Even if excluding those figures means Porsche have still bucked the trend, then that still might be explained by their excellent dealer network.

Its certainly correct that good companies selling good cars, like Aston and Maser, are selling unimpressive volume and have seen sales drop in the last 12 months.

I also don't think its flawed to say that Lotus could help themselves by having better sales locations nearer to their target market. Thats common sense. Does an oil trader really want to take his Evora to North Acton (the only Lotus service centre within the M25)? It must help to have better sales and servicing - no?

I would love to know how many 911s are sold by OPC within their four showrooms within M25 (not to mention the further 5 in the home counties)? Show me that they don't account for a healthy proportion of 911 sales in the UK and I will admit its a cr@p theory........

Or lets reverse the question, why do Porsche bother having all these expensive showrooms if their cars are so good that everyone will come out to Stansted to buy one, which is what you have to do to buy a new Lotus? Does not work.

[RYH64E]

Offspeccer said:

Stuff

So how much more money would you invest in a company that's £350m (ish) in debt, with an ageing product line up, no dealer network to speak of, no sales volume, and a small niche target market?

Believe it or not I like Lotus, have had one in the garage for years, I just can't see a viable future for the company.

[Tuna]

Offspeccer said:

Thanks for the tip-off. It turns out I was quoting SMMT figures for 09 and 10. The picture for 11 and 12 does not change my view much.

Data for Aston Martin shows another 9% drop in sales between 2011/12, Maserati fell 20% in the same period. Corvette fall off the list entirely. Yes, Porsche continue to buck the trend but I cannot see (yet) sales figures that exclude the successful Panamera and Cayenne. Even if excluding those figures means Porsche have still bucked the trend, then that still might be explained by their excellent dealer network.

Its certainly correct that good companies selling good cars, like Aston and Maser, are selling unimpressive volume and have seen sales drop in the last 12 months.

I also don't think its flawed to say that Lotus could help themselves by having better sales locations nearer to their target market. Thats common sense. Does an oil trader really want to take his Evora to North Acton (the only Lotus service centre within the M25)? It must help to have better sales and servicing - no?

I would love to know how many 911s are sold by OPC within their four showrooms within M25 (not to mention the further 5 in the home counties)? Show me that they don't account for a healthy proportion of 911 sales in the UK and I will admit its a cr@p theory........

Or lets reverse the question, why do Porsche bother having all these expensive showrooms if their cars are so good that everyone will come out to Stansted to buy one, which is what you have to do to buy a new Lotus? Does not work.

This is something I've been saying for quite a while now. If people can't easily go sit in a Lotus during their lunchbreak, they aren't likely to even think about buying one. The dealer network, and access to servicing is a problem for Lotus - and you could argue the way they handle the network has been a problem for at least the last 15 years or so.

For all that Scuffers and various other highly discerning car owners here talk about getting the exact position of the engine right, there are thousands of people who buy cars because they feel good, look good or have a nice badge on them. That's where Porsche, Aston and many other luxury brands sell their cars and where Lotus could be selling cars if it didn't require a web search and a day off work just to get to the 'local' dealer.

[Scuffers]

Tuna said:

For all that Scuffers and various other highly discerning car owners here talk about getting the exact position of the engine right, there are thousands of people who buy cars because they feel good, look good or have a nice badge on them. That's where Porsche, Aston and many other luxury brands sell their cars and where Lotus could be selling cars if it didn't require a web search and a day off work just to get to the 'local' dealer.

I agree, however, Lotus are not in the same position as Porsche, so to 'win' the sales, they have to stand out.

now, there are several ways of doing this, most involve some form of top-trumps, unfortunately, the Evora can't win a single category, so it's the kind of 'card' nobody will ever want to hold.

we keep using Porsche as the competitor, but the problem is much bigger than that, these days Evora money get's you into a lot of very decent cars, from 'sports' saloons to 5 door wagons with huge capabilities.

Now, I am not suggesting that at the Evora price point, Lotus can't compete, just that to do so needs a step better car than the Evora that can at least 'win' some catagories

[The Pits]

Versus the 911 the Evora has:

Better steering.
A chassis and body that can't rust.
Greater torsional rigidity.
More feel and feedback (essential for driving pleasure).
More benign on-limit handling characteristics.
Better ride and damping.
More confidence inspiring.
Faster down a bumpy road you don't know.
Amazing F1 heritage.
Current F1 association (a winning one too!).
Cheaper to buy.
Cheaper to maintain.
Better equipped as standard.
Power to match a 911S for less than the 'base' 991.
Exclusivity.

That's not the problem. A Lotus needs to be twice as good as a Porsche for half the money. People just aren't as ambivalent as you think. The NSX was a hugely superior car to the 911. It never sold because people at the price point are prejudiced against the Honda badge. They want a 'prestige' badge and don't care even if there's a car as hopeless as a 924, Panamera or Cayenne underneath it. They want to tell the world they've 'made it'. A Honda or Lotus doesn't do that. So why spend the same money on a car that only says 'car nerd' instead.

Lotus have made a car twice as good to drive for half the money of a porsche before. The Elise S1. And it flew out of the shoddy dealer network didn't it?

[Scuffers]

The Pits said:

Versus the 911 the Evora has:

Better steering. irrelevant to 99.9% of buyers
A chassis and body that can't rust.irrelevant to 99.9% of buyers
Greater torsional rigidity.irrelevant to 99.9% of buyers
More feel and feedback (essential for driving pleasure). irrelevant to 99.9% of buyers
More benign on-limit handling characteristics. irrelevant to 99.9% of buyers
Better ride and damping.irrelevant to 99.9% of buyers
More confidence inspiring. irrelevant to 99.9% of buyers
Faster down a bumpy road you don't know. irrelevant to 99.9% of buyers
Amazing F1 heritage.irrelevant to 99.9% of buyers
Current F1 association (a winning one too!). irrelevant to 99.9% of buyers
Cheaper to buy.questionable
Cheaper to maintain.questionable
Better equipped as standard.questionable
Power to match a 911S for less than the 'base' 991.come again? lowest powered 911 is more than Evora S
Exclusivity.OK, I'll give you that one!

That's not the problem. A Lotus needs to be twice as good as a Porsche for half the money. People just aren't as ambivalent as you think. The NSX was a hugely superior car to the 911. It never sold because people at the price point are prejudiced against the Honda badge. They want a 'prestige' badge and don't care even if there's a car as hopeless as a 924, Panamera or Cayenne underneath it. They want to tell the world they've 'made it'. A Honda or Lotus doesn't do that. So why spend the same money on a car that only says 'car nerd' instead.

Lotus have made a car twice as good to drive for half the money of a porsche before. The Elise S1. And it flew out of the shoddy dealer network didn't it?

Kind of agree with the NSX argument, they needed to be bolder, great as the NSX was, it looked less than great (at the time) and was just not 'fast' in the engine department.

Elise S1 sold cause it was unique, cheap and something new, Evora is none of these.

[Tuna]

Scuffers said:

I agree, however, Lotus are not in the same position as Porsche, so to 'win' the sales, they have to stand out.

That's where our perspectives are fundamentally different. As far as I'm concerned it's a numbers game. I used to have a mate who was thick as dung and not much better looking. Despite that, he went out with a succession of stunning women. His trick - he asked them. He used to get thousands of rejections (and the odd slap), but every once in a while someone would say yes. That's all he needed.

It's the same with Lotus - getting a car absolutely perfect and winning every top trumps category costs an immense amount of money, and years of development. Even then, it only takes a new release from Porsche just to bump up the figures and they're back to square one. It's a game they cannot win, just as my mate could have got plastic surgery and still not be Brad Pitt.

To win sales, Lotus have to get people in their cars. It's the one thing that they can tackle without risking it all on a single throw of the dice (and creating a 'stand out' car is a throw of the dice). Right now, I'd bet DRB are getting more return on the investment of the Malaysian showroom than most of the UK network. It doesn't matter that Lotus fans are in the minority if they can get enough people through their doors.

[Offspeccer]

Totally agree

[Ozzie Osmond]

The Pits said:

The NSX was a hugely superior car to the 911. It never sold because people at the price point are prejudiced against the Honda badge.

Honda's massive F1 success and handling "honed by Ayrton Senna" might have been expected to do the trick but
NSX problems were fundamental,

• bland styling compared to 911
• needed a V8 to compete with Ferrari and Lotus.

[Thorburn]

Ozzie Osmond said:

• bland styling compared to 911

Really? In 1991 the NSX looked good, the 911 looked like it always had - iconic but hardly exciting.

The badge and to some degree the on-paper stats (old Japanese 276bhp limit) let the NSX down, not the styling.

[The Pits]

You really think an NSX looks bland next to a 1990 Porsche 911?

Can't really argue with it if you do but that's not how I remember it in 1990 at all.

The point was merely to illustrate that it is not as simple as making a car better for less money.

People aren't objective about expensive cars, nor should they be. Fast, expensive cars are objectively pointless. Lotus need to appeal on a more emotional level. The Evora is objectively better than an Exige, it's more practical, easier to get in and out of, it's more rigid, more technically advanced and more expensive to make. All it really lacks the Exige's hardcore, quasi-racer appeal. Look which one everyone wants.

[Scuffers]

The Pits said:

The Evora is objectively better than an Exige, it's more practical, easier to get in and out of, it's more rigid, more technically advanced and more expensive to make.

paradoxically, that's exactly what's wrong with it (compared to the Elise/Exige).

since when is Lotus ownership about practicality?