Will Lotus cars make it to 2015?

Will Lotus cars make it to 2015?

Author
Discussion

Tuna

19,930 posts

283 months

Thursday 8th March 2012
quotequote all
Eliser said:
For any sane business person- Bahar's 'vision' was never acheivable - good for him that he was able to convince the gullible that the South Sea Bubble Model was indeed alive, well and brought up to date wink

Calling Tony Fernandes shout
I'm sorry, based on what exactly? What part of his plan is so difficult to put into practise? They've got the platform, they have all the engineering resources they need. Lotus' biggest problem was decades of under-investment, and unless you do what Ginetta and Caterham are doing and shrink the company into a producer of 'hobby cars', you have to invest to reach the potential that Lotus clearly have.

Before you suggest that Caterham and Ginetta are model companies, they're about a tenth the size of Lotus. Ginetta aims to sell 50 of their new model this year. Compare that with a couple of hundred pre-orders of the GTE (which costs twice as much). It's just not in the same ball park. All the evidence is that Fernandes is going to do the same with Caterham.

The bottom line is that Lotus should be in the same market as McLaren, not Ginetta or Caterham. They have the experience and skills, and a platform that's more than up to the job. 'An y sane business person' would be aiming for a return to the peak of Lotus production rather than a retreat to a hobby niche.

bobo

1,702 posts

277 months

Thursday 8th March 2012
quotequote all
correct. no money in beards, only cornflakes .....


Tuna said:
The bottom line is that Lotus should be in the same market as McLaren, not Ginetta or Caterham. T

doggydave

329 posts

174 months

Thursday 8th March 2012
quotequote all
bobo said:
correct. no money in beards, only cornflakes .....


Tuna said:
The bottom line is that Lotus should be in the same market as McLaren, not Ginetta or Caterham. T
Get real ffs. Not enough people have got the confidence to buy the Evora at £70k never mind £170k on something else. I really hope that they don't go under.

bobo

1,702 posts

277 months

Thursday 8th March 2012
quotequote all
doggydave said:
Get real ffs. Not enough people have got the confidence to buy the Evora at £70k never mind £170k on something else. I really hope that they don't go under.
morning doggy wink

doggydave

329 posts

174 months

Thursday 8th March 2012
quotequote all
bobo said:
morning doggy wink
Morning bobo.

Pits, interesting point about replacing some large parts with carbon. I wonder how far you could push the weight down of the car with such mods. Without striping interiors out etc.

The Pits

4,289 posts

239 months

Thursday 8th March 2012
quotequote all
Tuna said:
I'm sorry, based on what exactly? What part of his plan is so difficult to put into practise? They've got the platform, they have all the engineering resources they need. Lotus' biggest problem was decades of under-investment, and unless you do what Ginetta and Caterham are doing and shrink the company into a producer of 'hobby cars', you have to invest to reach the potential that Lotus clearly have.

Before you suggest that Caterham and Ginetta are model companies, they're about a tenth the size of Lotus. Ginetta aims to sell 50 of their new model this year. Compare that with a couple of hundred pre-orders of the GTE (which costs twice as much). It's just not in the same ball park. All the evidence is that Fernandes is going to do the same with Caterham.

The bottom line is that Lotus should be in the same market as McLaren, not Ginetta or Caterham. They have the experience and skills, and a platform that's more than up to the job. 'An y sane business person' would be aiming for a return to the peak of Lotus production rather than a retreat to a hobby niche.
I agree that it can be done. Aston Martin went from 40 cars a year to where they are today.

What Lotus may lack in 'prestige' they more than make up for in race pedigree and F1 heritage. Lets not forget that Lotus helped Aston develop the VH architecture on which all the current models (even the Onesevenseven to some extent) are based too so there's no question that they have the know how to do it.

I still take issue with what I've seen of the Esprit so far. I differ from bahar's vision of lotus being a british 'porsche'. Most porsche owners seem pretty happy with the german porsche. I think they should occupy a more extreme place in the market. Evora GTE is a much better direction. The new esprit should have greater emphasis on lightweight and showcase new lightweight technology, how about active suspension too? It needs some radical point of difference. At the moment it's a wannabe MP412/C.

Above all it has to look otherworldly desirable. Enough to make it's target price seem inconsequential. I still maintain the F40 should be the inspiration, it seems a really good fit with what Lotus should be all about. Lightweight, aggressive, make grown men go weak at the knees and be hugely exciting and emotive to drive. No-one ever complained that the build quality wasn't up to much on the F40, if anything the exposed glue and lack of carpets are seen as part of the raw appeal. It screamed 'race car for the road' but never really raced, it didn't matter. Most petrolheads still dream of owning one 20 years later.

Ferrari have abandoned that place in the market because their all about F1 inspired (my arse!) technology these days. They don't do raw and back to basics anymore. Porsche will always make luggsury/sports cars for the lowest common denominator, they're very good at it, leave them to it I say.

Lotus have brilliantly demonstrated what a lightweight car can do with a modest engine for years. It's time for them to show the world what lightweight can do when you stick a rocket in it's arse.

The Pits

4,289 posts

239 months

Thursday 8th March 2012
quotequote all
doggydave said:
Morning bobo.

Pits, interesting point about replacing some large parts with carbon. I wonder how far you could push the weight down of the car with such mods. Without striping interiors out etc.
I guess it all depends on the weight of the existing stuff. But the Evora S rear diffuser is pretty huge, a carbon rear wing and front splitter should save a bit too. To be honest even if it was only a 2 or 3 kgs I'd do it just for the aesthetic appeal! Hopefully reverie et al are working on it as we speak. Still, carbon roof panel would be nice and I think you can already get those to fit the exige. The V6's roof looks identical to the old car.

A lighter exhaust silencer would definitely save a fair bit, all from behind the rear axle too. With the Exige V6 having now using a 'bypass' system it's likely to be a heavy old lump too. A titanium system could easily save 10kgs on its own. Surely 1160kgs is not unrealistic?

doggydave

329 posts

174 months

Thursday 8th March 2012
quotequote all
The Pits said:
Above all it has to look otherworldly desirable. Enough to make it's target price seem inconsequential. I still maintain the F40 should be the inspiration, it seems a really good fit with what Lotus should be all about. Lightweight, aggressive, make grown men go weak at the knees and be hugely exciting and emotive to drive. No-one ever complained that the build quality wasn't up to much on the F40, if anything the exposed glue and lack of carpets are seen as part of the raw appeal. It screamed 'race car for the road' but never really raced, it didn't matter. Most petrolheads still dream of owning one 20 years later.
That is spot on Pits. The new V6 Exige should be offered in a raw no frills derivative. This would possibly get the weight under 1000kgs and hopefully make it a bit cheaper. Stripping all of the crap out of the car that the real enthusiast is not bothered about would be really something.

The Pits

4,289 posts

239 months

Thursday 8th March 2012
quotequote all
Agree Dave would be great to have a more raw and ideally cheaper version for those who like it that way.

An Exige CR perhaps or a 'Cup 350' version? If they could get it under 1100kg it wouldn't need any more power!

Power to weight jumps from 293bhp/ton to 313/ton just by shedding 76 kgs! With such a light car to begin with (compared to anything else with 345bhp anyway) small gains make a big difference.

At 1000kg it's obviously a full 345/ton but I'm guessing it might take full carbon bodywork to achieve this, which would make it expensive. I read that full carbon Evora GTE is 100 kgs lighter than standard body.

Power2weight

85 posts

165 months

Wednesday 14th March 2012
quotequote all
Simple answer is Lotus's aren't selling because they are not good enough. Die hard Lotus fans will buy a new Lotus if they think it may be faster than their last one ( or not ) selling their 240 s for a V6. There are potential buyers out there with money in their pockets waiting for something worth buying but a re-jigged exige isn't going to do it or for that matter an overweight under powered Evora. Just one bloody good model would be enough to turn things around.

1981linley

937 posts

146 months

Wednesday 14th March 2012
quotequote all
Power to weight. Check that. Are Lotus cars under powered? Look at bhp per tonne. It's also about looks and design....Lotus make some great looking cars that turn heads more than cars costing three times as much....everyday I get photographed while stuck in traffic...more power would be even more embarrassing as I grind from 1st to 2nd.

Toaster

2,938 posts

192 months

Wednesday 14th March 2012
quotequote all
found on LotusTalk forum

DRB-Hicom may sell Lotus if ... http://www.btimes.com.my/Current_News/BTIMES/artic...

DRB-Hicom may retain Lotus following takeover of Proton http://themalaysianreserve.com/main/index.php?opti...

Getting best performance out of Lotus http://www.btimes.com.my/Current_News/BTIMES/artic...


Edited by Toaster on Thursday 15th March 00:15

Ozzie Osmond

21,189 posts

245 months

Sunday 18th March 2012
quotequote all
IMO if Lotus get the Exige V6 convertible into production very quickly they will make it to 2015.

If they don't, they won't. Nobody wants the Evora, the Elise is very old hat and normal humans don't want to drive through town in an Exige covered with wings and spoilers.

A decent road-going V6 sportscar might actually find Lotus some customers. I very much hope so. But they need it in the dealerships like yesterday!


Oilchange

8,396 posts

259 months

Monday 19th March 2012
quotequote all
does nobody want the Evora?

rick.e

768 posts

270 months

Monday 19th March 2012
quotequote all
Tuna said:
What part of his plan is so difficult to put into practise?
How about introducing one new model per year? Even mainstream manufacturers struggle to do that.

Perhaps more to the point, does a sports car manufacturer need 6 models? (Esprit, Ethos, Elite, Elise, Eterne, Elan)

peter450

1,650 posts

232 months

Thursday 22nd March 2012
quotequote all
5 Seems to many they just need 3 IMO

Elise
Esprit
2+2 looked good, so i'd make that the 3rd

You can have spin off's of these like the Exige or a Lightweight hardcore Esprit etc, but the basic model line should be 3 main models + varients

Raitzi

640 posts

211 months

Saturday 24th March 2012
quotequote all
They should make elan first. (2+2 400bhp thing) That would be obvious choice to try to compete with porsches. I think they just can not jump to ferrari territory from elises and evoras.

CocoUK

951 posts

181 months

Saturday 31st March 2012
quotequote all
‘This difficult period for Lotus finishes at the end of March and that’s 
when we will know then whether DRB-Hicom will want to continue with our 
business plan,’ Bahar admits, ‘I really hope they will but I cannot call it at the moment, it’s still 50:50.’

What do we reckon then chaps? Have they tossed the coin yet?

AFC1886

3,342 posts

149 months

Saturday 31st March 2012
quotequote all
CocoUK said:
‘This difficult period for Lotus finishes at the end of March and that’s 
when we will know then whether DRB-Hicom will want to continue with our 
business plan,’ Bahar admits, ‘I really hope they will but I cannot call it at the moment, it’s still 50:50.’

What do we reckon then chaps? Have they tossed the coin yet?
What will happen if they don't? Is it the end for Bahar and his mates and start with a clean sheet of paper? Or will they end up selling their stake in Lotus again?

Really hope Lotus can find some stability in the very near future! Love them to bits!

Frimley111R

15,491 posts

233 months

Monday 2nd April 2012
quotequote all
Summary of the news links above seems to be:

  • Keep on target and we'll keep you
  • We would probably sell if someone approached us with an offer
  • We still need to look into this a little deeper