Bahar Suspended
Discussion
Tuna said:
I love that even when they do produce cars that people praise to the roof, it's still used as proof that they're doing the wrong thing.
What are they meant to do whilst new cars are being developed? Just kill off the current range and stop selling vehicles?
I'm still not clear if the Exige V6 is an Evora under the skin, or a stretched Exige. Either way, even if it was around as a mule it doesn't just magically get approval, complete the design and engineering work and arrive on stands at car shows without someone making a decision a good while ago. MJK didn't have it in his plan either as far as I've heard, so why make a meal out of it not being part of the 'masterplan'? Plans change, and in this case we get some great cars as a result.
the point is mate, both these cars were in plan/already made before Dannyboy came in, (and AFAIK, he actually canned the V6 Exige in the first few weeks he was there).What are they meant to do whilst new cars are being developed? Just kill off the current range and stop selling vehicles?
I'm still not clear if the Exige V6 is an Evora under the skin, or a stretched Exige. Either way, even if it was around as a mule it doesn't just magically get approval, complete the design and engineering work and arrive on stands at car shows without someone making a decision a good while ago. MJK didn't have it in his plan either as far as I've heard, so why make a meal out of it not being part of the 'masterplan'? Plans change, and in this case we get some great cars as a result.
ie. in 2 years, what has he done for Lotus other than make a lot of noise, spend a shed load of cash (that they don't have), dragged Lotus though the courts (at great expense), made a laughing stock of a once highly regarded company, etc etc.
the question you should ask is had Mike not had to retire, we would probably have had the V6 Exige 12 months ago, and who knows what else?
I hate to say this, but even though the V6 Exige is being hailed as a great car, it wont be able to save the company, it just wont sell in the numbers required to make a profit large enough to be of any benefit to Group Lotus.
The whole Bahar extravaganza now needs to be toned down somewhat to a doable level, the Fuji Esprit has to be rejigged into more of a MJK era MSC Esprit, it needs to be a McLaren MP4-12C at half the price to be able to generate some serious volume sales for the company.
The Elise/Exige are getting quite old and are probably more trouble than they are worth for the company to be bothered with (as the 7 was in the early 70's), they do still sell, but in such painfully low ammounts they cannot possibly be generating any profits, more like losses.
The Evora is pretty much OK as it is, volume needs to be increased though by lowering its price to a level that enthusiasts feel comfortable with , which may be very difficult with all of the tooling changes for the recient "quality improvements", which I feel by themselves wont recoup the cost of execuition.
The new CEO (If Bahar really does ultimately go, and I hope he does) will REALLY have his(or her) work cut out to build new bridges with Lotus's workforce,suppliers and customers (past, present and future), it will take someone with drive, passion, expertise, wisdom,and patience who that is I dont know , but If they find someone like that it will be a good start to what will certainally be a herculean task.
The whole Bahar extravaganza now needs to be toned down somewhat to a doable level, the Fuji Esprit has to be rejigged into more of a MJK era MSC Esprit, it needs to be a McLaren MP4-12C at half the price to be able to generate some serious volume sales for the company.
The Elise/Exige are getting quite old and are probably more trouble than they are worth for the company to be bothered with (as the 7 was in the early 70's), they do still sell, but in such painfully low ammounts they cannot possibly be generating any profits, more like losses.
The Evora is pretty much OK as it is, volume needs to be increased though by lowering its price to a level that enthusiasts feel comfortable with , which may be very difficult with all of the tooling changes for the recient "quality improvements", which I feel by themselves wont recoup the cost of execuition.
The new CEO (If Bahar really does ultimately go, and I hope he does) will REALLY have his(or her) work cut out to build new bridges with Lotus's workforce,suppliers and customers (past, present and future), it will take someone with drive, passion, expertise, wisdom,and patience who that is I dont know , but If they find someone like that it will be a good start to what will certainally be a herculean task.
Edited by WayneB on Saturday 26th May 17:36
lol... less of the romance about mike, being harsh but fair the guy was a specialist in derivatives and special edition paint jobs and little else.
the co is suffering because of the managements short termism since the S1. frankly its still a badly managed company with an excellent skill set, work force and brand ... but then again it always has been really (well since it went properly corporate).
on the plus side though , that's precisely why it has considerable inherent value imo.
the co is suffering because of the managements short termism since the S1. frankly its still a badly managed company with an excellent skill set, work force and brand ... but then again it always has been really (well since it went properly corporate).
on the plus side though , that's precisely why it has considerable inherent value imo.
Scuffers said:
ie. in 2 years, what has he done for Lotus other than make a lot of noise, spend a shed load of cash (that they don't have), dragged Lotus though the courts (at great expense), made a laughing stock of a once highly regarded company, etc etc.
the question you should ask is had Mike not had to retire, we would probably have had the V6 Exige 12 months ago, and who knows what else?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not apologising for Bahar here - what I'm frustrated about is that they currently have three cars that have the press excited for the first time in years. Yet there are some of the long term critics on here who would rather chew razor blades than admit that. And rather than singing the praises of the new cars, it all turns round to Bahar again. the question you should ask is had Mike not had to retire, we would probably have had the V6 Exige 12 months ago, and who knows what else?
Frankly, the personality led style of management is a major distraction. The thought of replacing Bahar with Ferndandez or another over-hyped character fills me with horror. Of course Chapman was a character in the first place, but you can't just engineer a replacement, and he made as many bad decisions as anyone.
I don't think the Exige would have arrived any earlier under MJK. It wasn't part of the strategy. We might have seen the Esprit a bit earlier (but with a crate engine that everyone would have complained about). I'm not sure if the GTE would have turned up, and that is having a useful impact on the bottom line. So, who knows?
Again though, the Exige and Elise re-vamps aren't going to save the company. By themselves they'll do nothing more than prolong the agony.
bobo said:
lol... less of the romance about mike, being harsh but fair the guy was a specialist in derivatives and special edition paint jobs and little else.
What a crass ignorant statement Mr.(lol)BoboSince Lotus history seems to be re-written on a wholesale level on the over the last three years, I will fill you in a bit on what Lotus cars MJK bought to market since the late 60's:-
Europa Twin Cam
Elite
Eclat
Esprit (S1-S2-S3 and X-180)
Excell
Europa
Evora
Lotus's problem over the years has not been a management one (up until 3 years ago anyway), it been a victim of a failure of long term monetry support from its past parent companies (Whickens BCA,GM,Artioli/Bugatti and of course Proton), all of which kept Lotus somewhat strapped for the cash needed to invest into bringing new product to market on a regular basis.
The thing I like about Lotus is that it has truly worked miracles with what little money it has had at its disposal over the years,and it had attracted a large , loyal following of enthusiasts prepared to buy its products.
The main thing I disslike the most about this Bahar era is the way he(Bahar) has portrayed the Lotus of the past (since the death of the founder) as some sort of poorly run entity, run by and staffed by a bunch of incompidents incapable of making decient cars.
This was a poor strategy on his behalf, resulting in the loss of some great engineers, low morale within the company and alienated a majority of its past customers, and erroding confidence in the company resulting in an era of all time dismal levels.
Most of you are now truly finding out that the real era of poor management began 3 years ago, and hopefully is about to end.
WayneB said:
Lotus's problem over the years has not been a management one (up until 3 years ago anyway), it been a victim of a failure of long term monetry support from its past parent companies (Whickens BCA,GM,Artioli/Bugatti and of course Proton), all of which kept Lotus somewhat strapped for the cash needed to invest into bringing new product to market on a regular basis.
good stuff, but you have also missed the point that since Proton brought Lotus, Lotus engineering has lost a lot of work because of Proton owning them.this work has been hoovered up by Ricardo and the like (you know, who did a hell of a lot of the engineering for McLaren, Porsche, etc. etc.)
I would argue management wise, they have always been somewhat at odds, the Elise platform earned Lotus a shed load of cash, the real question is what they then did with that.
it should have been the M250 ~2000, the Esprit ~2004, and who knows what by now?
All we have had in reality is the Evora, and whilst it may well be a very nice car, it's the WRONG CAR, at the WRONG TIME for the WRONG AMOUNT OF MONEY.
the Exige S is really so late is laughable, the Elise/Exige has been crying out for a powerfully engine for years, (hell why so you think their are so many with Honda/Ford/Audi engines in them?), yet as usual with Lotus, it's all too little too late - it needed a better engine 10+ years ago!
(and yes, I await the cry's of all the die-hards going n about how a Lotus is not about straight line performance etc etc. well, sorry to tell you this, but THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN ABOUT!)
nothing crass about it... you just don't agree ... its a badly managed co, always has been. unless of course you are telling me lotus historically runs at a profit not a loss?
read my post again (or perhaps it wasn't clear), was talking post s1 when imo the company had stagnated in terms of 'product' ie MK 2006+. so the focus on endless derivs of the s2 ad infinitum ad nauseum.
no excuses old boy, that MK period was one of the most favorable for the sector in terms of sales never mind ease of funding - co's in fundamentally worse situations managed to get better credit lines internally/externally for product development. his job was to convince the paymaster to pay for what is needed, for shareholder return, not loss. A £60mln recap is a nats nut in the grand scheme of things for a car co with an effectively dated product line.
the evora has missed practically every single one of its targets for the co. not only that i would wager it hampered the co financially well beyond MKs term.
shortermism at its very best. ignorant ? well if you think a co that loses money historically has 'clever' management thats fine... i do agree that its done well on short cash but if the plan is just to kick the can down the road then great. and here we are....
funny though, you did remind me of my posts in 2007/8 when i was advocating having the management lined up and shot (much to the displeasure of the beards/geeks at the time) then for not getting their act in gear.
what a golden opportunity missed....but unfortunately so inline.
read my post again (or perhaps it wasn't clear), was talking post s1 when imo the company had stagnated in terms of 'product' ie MK 2006+. so the focus on endless derivs of the s2 ad infinitum ad nauseum.
no excuses old boy, that MK period was one of the most favorable for the sector in terms of sales never mind ease of funding - co's in fundamentally worse situations managed to get better credit lines internally/externally for product development. his job was to convince the paymaster to pay for what is needed, for shareholder return, not loss. A £60mln recap is a nats nut in the grand scheme of things for a car co with an effectively dated product line.
the evora has missed practically every single one of its targets for the co. not only that i would wager it hampered the co financially well beyond MKs term.
shortermism at its very best. ignorant ? well if you think a co that loses money historically has 'clever' management thats fine... i do agree that its done well on short cash but if the plan is just to kick the can down the road then great. and here we are....
funny though, you did remind me of my posts in 2007/8 when i was advocating having the management lined up and shot (much to the displeasure of the beards/geeks at the time) then for not getting their act in gear.
what a golden opportunity missed....but unfortunately so inline.
WayneB said:
What a crass ignorant statement Mr.(lol)Bobo
Since Lotus history seems to be re-written on a wholesale level on the over the last three years, I will fill you in a bit on what Lotus cars MJK bought to market since the late 60's:-
Europa Twin Cam
Elite
Eclat
Esprit (S1-S2-S3 and X-180)
Excell
Europa
Evora
Lotus's problem over the years has not been a management one (up until 3 years ago anyway), it been a victim of a failure of long term monetry support from its past parent companies (Whickens BCA,GM,Artioli/Bugatti and of course Proton), all of which kept Lotus somewhat strapped for the cash needed to invest into bringing new product to market on a regular basis.
The thing I like about Lotus is that it has truly worked miracles with what little money it has had at its disposal over the years,and it had attracted a large , loyal following of enthusiasts prepared to buy its products.
The main thing I disslike the most about this Bahar era is the way he(Bahar) has portrayed the Lotus of the past (since the death of the founder) as some sort of poorly run entity, run by and staffed by a bunch of incompidents incapable of making decient cars.
This was a poor strategy on his behalf, resulting in the loss of some great engineers, low morale within the company and alienated a majority of its past customers, and erroding confidence in the company resulting in an era of all time dismal levels.
Most of you are now truly finding out that the real era of poor management began 3 years ago, and hopefully is about to end.
Since Lotus history seems to be re-written on a wholesale level on the over the last three years, I will fill you in a bit on what Lotus cars MJK bought to market since the late 60's:-
Europa Twin Cam
Elite
Eclat
Esprit (S1-S2-S3 and X-180)
Excell
Europa
Evora
Lotus's problem over the years has not been a management one (up until 3 years ago anyway), it been a victim of a failure of long term monetry support from its past parent companies (Whickens BCA,GM,Artioli/Bugatti and of course Proton), all of which kept Lotus somewhat strapped for the cash needed to invest into bringing new product to market on a regular basis.
The thing I like about Lotus is that it has truly worked miracles with what little money it has had at its disposal over the years,and it had attracted a large , loyal following of enthusiasts prepared to buy its products.
The main thing I disslike the most about this Bahar era is the way he(Bahar) has portrayed the Lotus of the past (since the death of the founder) as some sort of poorly run entity, run by and staffed by a bunch of incompidents incapable of making decient cars.
This was a poor strategy on his behalf, resulting in the loss of some great engineers, low morale within the company and alienated a majority of its past customers, and erroding confidence in the company resulting in an era of all time dismal levels.
Most of you are now truly finding out that the real era of poor management began 3 years ago, and hopefully is about to end.
Edited by bobo on Monday 28th May 16:52
yep, can agree w all of that ...
i went through maybe 4 911s since selling my s1's ... given the choice i.e a product that 'at the very minimum' punched its weight that money would have been in Norfolk coffers not Stuttgarts.
and there's quite a few about like me ... that says as much as the evora sales figures.
i went through maybe 4 911s since selling my s1's ... given the choice i.e a product that 'at the very minimum' punched its weight that money would have been in Norfolk coffers not Stuttgarts.
and there's quite a few about like me ... that says as much as the evora sales figures.
Scuffers said:
good stuff, but you have also missed the point that since Proton brought Lotus, Lotus engineering has lost a lot of work because of Proton owning them.
this work has been hoovered up by Ricardo and the like (you know, who did a hell of a lot of the engineering for McLaren, Porsche, etc. etc.)
I would argue management wise, they have always been somewhat at odds, the Elise platform earned Lotus a shed load of cash, the real question is what they then did with that.
it should have been the M250 ~2000, the Esprit ~2004, and who knows what by now?
All we have had in reality is the Evora, and whilst it may well be a very nice car, it's the WRONG CAR, at the WRONG TIME for the WRONG AMOUNT OF MONEY.
the Exige S is really so late is laughable, the Elise/Exige has been crying out for a powerfully engine for years, (hell why so you think their are so many with Honda/Ford/Audi engines in them?), yet as usual with Lotus, it's all too little too late - it needed a better engine 10+ years ago!
(and yes, I await the cry's of all the die-hards going n about how a Lotus is not about straight line performance etc etc. well, sorry to tell you this, but THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN ABOUT!)
this work has been hoovered up by Ricardo and the like (you know, who did a hell of a lot of the engineering for McLaren, Porsche, etc. etc.)
I would argue management wise, they have always been somewhat at odds, the Elise platform earned Lotus a shed load of cash, the real question is what they then did with that.
it should have been the M250 ~2000, the Esprit ~2004, and who knows what by now?
All we have had in reality is the Evora, and whilst it may well be a very nice car, it's the WRONG CAR, at the WRONG TIME for the WRONG AMOUNT OF MONEY.
the Exige S is really so late is laughable, the Elise/Exige has been crying out for a powerfully engine for years, (hell why so you think their are so many with Honda/Ford/Audi engines in them?), yet as usual with Lotus, it's all too little too late - it needed a better engine 10+ years ago!
(and yes, I await the cry's of all the die-hards going n about how a Lotus is not about straight line performance etc etc. well, sorry to tell you this, but THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN ABOUT!)
Scuffers said:
good stuff, but you have also missed the point that since Proton brought Lotus, Lotus engineering has lost a lot of work because of Proton owning them.
this work has been hoovered up by Ricardo and the like (you know, who did a hell of a lot of the engineering for McLaren, Porsche, etc. etc.)
I would argue management wise, they have always been somewhat at odds, the Elise platform earned Lotus a shed load of cash, the real question is what they then did with that.
it should have been the M250 ~2000, the Esprit ~2004, and who knows what by now?
All we have had in reality is the Evora, and whilst it may well be a very nice car, it's the WRONG CAR, at the WRONG TIME for the WRONG AMOUNT OF MONEY.
the Exige S is really so late is laughable, the Elise/Exige has been crying out for a powerfully engine for years, (hell why so you think their are so many with Honda/Ford/Audi engines in them?), yet as usual with Lotus, it's all too little too late - it needed a better engine 10+ years ago!
(and yes, I await the cry's of all the die-hards going n about how a Lotus is not about straight line performance etc etc. well, sorry to tell you this, but THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN ABOUT!)
Not sure why you are under the impression that Lotus Engineering have "Lost alot of work" since going into Protons ownership, I know for a fact that Lotus have carried out Engineering work for Toyota, Chrysler,Aston-Martin,Jaguar,GM, Hyundai, Kia, Daewoo,Nissan,and of course the parent company Proton, so whilst they didnt do the McLaren MP4-12C or anything for Porsche (you must be kidding about that ?)I would hardly class that as failure.this work has been hoovered up by Ricardo and the like (you know, who did a hell of a lot of the engineering for McLaren, Porsche, etc. etc.)
I would argue management wise, they have always been somewhat at odds, the Elise platform earned Lotus a shed load of cash, the real question is what they then did with that.
it should have been the M250 ~2000, the Esprit ~2004, and who knows what by now?
All we have had in reality is the Evora, and whilst it may well be a very nice car, it's the WRONG CAR, at the WRONG TIME for the WRONG AMOUNT OF MONEY.
the Exige S is really so late is laughable, the Elise/Exige has been crying out for a powerfully engine for years, (hell why so you think their are so many with Honda/Ford/Audi engines in them?), yet as usual with Lotus, it's all too little too late - it needed a better engine 10+ years ago!
(and yes, I await the cry's of all the die-hards going n about how a Lotus is not about straight line performance etc etc. well, sorry to tell you this, but THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN ABOUT!)
Like many low volume car manufacturers they have struggled, like Ferrari did (pre-Fiat), Lamborghini (pre-Audi), Rolls Royce and Bentley (pre-Volkswagen and BMW),Aston-Martin (pre-Ford/Prodrive) etc etc, I guess all of those companies suffered from bad management before being took over by their current owners?
I do wish that Lotus's had been the fastest cars on the road in a straight line, but realistically I feel they achived admirable results with the powertrains the company choose to use (that they were able too buy), and it made sense for Lotus to use the K series and the Toyota powertains as they had had a hand in developing them in the first place (thus supporting customers of Lotus Engineering)
Quote Mr.Bobo:-
nothing crass about it... you just don't agree ... its a badly managed co, always has been. unless of course you are telling me lotus historically runs at a profit not a loss?
read my post again (or perhaps it wasn't clear), was talking post s1 when imo the company had stagnated in terms of 'product' ie MK 2006+. so the focus on endless derivs of the s2 ad infinitum ad nauseum.
no excuses old boy, that MK period was one of the most favorable for the sector in terms of sales never mind ease of funding - co's in fundamentally worse situations managed to get better credit lines internally/externally for product development. his job was to convince the paymaster to pay for what is needed, for shareholder return, not loss. A £60mln recap is a nats nut in the grand scheme of things for a car co with an effectively dated product line.
the evora has missed practically every single one of its targets for the co. not only that i would wager it hampered the co financially well beyond MKs term.
shortermism at its very best. ignorant ? well if you think a co that loses money historically has 'clever' management thats fine... i do agree that its done well on short cash but if the plan is just to kick the can down the road then great. and here we are....
funny though, you did remind me of my posts in 2007/8 when i was advocating having the management lined up and shot (much to the displeasure of the beards/geeks at the time) then for not getting their act in gear.
what a golden opportunity missed....but unfortunately so inline.
Yes I feel your comment was a cheap shot at Mike Kimberley, I quite like old Mike and dont feel he deserved that sort of disrespect.
I must admit the Kim Ogaard Nielsen era at Lotus was particulary lackluster, he was not a very good CEO and product did suffer under his period of leadership.
Group Lotus as a whole has returned profit in the past, when you take into account revenues from Lotus Engineering, traditionally car manufacture was carried out more as a way of keeping the company in the publics awareness than a way of making real money, which isnt ideal I know, but they got through it.
I respect your choice to own Porsche products, they make good cars , their cars are by no means perfect though (I know a few people that own them), but as long as they meet all of your requirements you should own them.
As for the Evora, it was initially met with rave reviews, quite a lot of them have been sold, but I guess the state of the worlds economies have affected sales (as have Bahars scathing critisms of the car)
Me , I prefer the Evora over a Porsche, sure it has flaws and has "only" a Toyota powertain, but IMO Lotus did an admirable job of bringing the car to production with such a miniscule budget (by Porsche standards anyways) and a very tight time shedule, on a personal level I do wish MJK would have bought the MSC Esprit to market first, but I respect his desision to go with the Evora that was concieved as a follow on car for Elise/Exige owners and as an alternative for people that were looking for a nicely styled, unique,practical,reliable mid engined , hand built, British Sportscar.
Sure its flawed (especially If your anal about interior trim fit and finish), but its a fun car to drive and due to its rarity creates interest wherever it goes which counts for something eh?.
Just want to add I dont have a beard, dont class myself as a geek, but personnally I dont think I will ever want to own a Porsche (except maybe a 917):lol:
nothing crass about it... you just don't agree ... its a badly managed co, always has been. unless of course you are telling me lotus historically runs at a profit not a loss?
read my post again (or perhaps it wasn't clear), was talking post s1 when imo the company had stagnated in terms of 'product' ie MK 2006+. so the focus on endless derivs of the s2 ad infinitum ad nauseum.
no excuses old boy, that MK period was one of the most favorable for the sector in terms of sales never mind ease of funding - co's in fundamentally worse situations managed to get better credit lines internally/externally for product development. his job was to convince the paymaster to pay for what is needed, for shareholder return, not loss. A £60mln recap is a nats nut in the grand scheme of things for a car co with an effectively dated product line.
the evora has missed practically every single one of its targets for the co. not only that i would wager it hampered the co financially well beyond MKs term.
shortermism at its very best. ignorant ? well if you think a co that loses money historically has 'clever' management thats fine... i do agree that its done well on short cash but if the plan is just to kick the can down the road then great. and here we are....
funny though, you did remind me of my posts in 2007/8 when i was advocating having the management lined up and shot (much to the displeasure of the beards/geeks at the time) then for not getting their act in gear.
what a golden opportunity missed....but unfortunately so inline.
Yes I feel your comment was a cheap shot at Mike Kimberley, I quite like old Mike and dont feel he deserved that sort of disrespect.
I must admit the Kim Ogaard Nielsen era at Lotus was particulary lackluster, he was not a very good CEO and product did suffer under his period of leadership.
Group Lotus as a whole has returned profit in the past, when you take into account revenues from Lotus Engineering, traditionally car manufacture was carried out more as a way of keeping the company in the publics awareness than a way of making real money, which isnt ideal I know, but they got through it.
I respect your choice to own Porsche products, they make good cars , their cars are by no means perfect though (I know a few people that own them), but as long as they meet all of your requirements you should own them.
As for the Evora, it was initially met with rave reviews, quite a lot of them have been sold, but I guess the state of the worlds economies have affected sales (as have Bahars scathing critisms of the car)
Me , I prefer the Evora over a Porsche, sure it has flaws and has "only" a Toyota powertain, but IMO Lotus did an admirable job of bringing the car to production with such a miniscule budget (by Porsche standards anyways) and a very tight time shedule, on a personal level I do wish MJK would have bought the MSC Esprit to market first, but I respect his desision to go with the Evora that was concieved as a follow on car for Elise/Exige owners and as an alternative for people that were looking for a nicely styled, unique,practical,reliable mid engined , hand built, British Sportscar.
Sure its flawed (especially If your anal about interior trim fit and finish), but its a fun car to drive and due to its rarity creates interest wherever it goes which counts for something eh?.
Just want to add I dont have a beard, dont class myself as a geek, but personnally I dont think I will ever want to own a Porsche (except maybe a 917):lol:
Edited by WayneB on Tuesday 29th May 01:19
look wayne, im not anti MK or pro DB ... these countless derivatives have stopped 'having it in the corners' for 5 years or so, forget about a straight line.
and if you say this on other forums you are branded the Antichrist. sure, i get the unique feeling of loti (i have owned enough of them) but truth be told the brand IS about performance not just semi lightweight/affordable toys that 'feel' unique but get out dragged by a tdi.
it appears the co has woken up and has finally produced something that punches above its weight again (im trying to buy it!), not seen since the S1 imho.
nothing should leave hethel that doesn't punch above its weight. you know that vx based europa ? if it would have had 280+ bhp day 1 it would have cleared up. building an average product just for cashflow IS why we are here now .... engine not good enough? the chief executive should do his job, either get the other division to mod it so it is, find a new suppler or source funds to build one of their own.
lotus needs a completely new product line that performs, at the least DB is right about that ! somone will have to pay for it ....
and if you say this on other forums you are branded the Antichrist. sure, i get the unique feeling of loti (i have owned enough of them) but truth be told the brand IS about performance not just semi lightweight/affordable toys that 'feel' unique but get out dragged by a tdi.
it appears the co has woken up and has finally produced something that punches above its weight again (im trying to buy it!), not seen since the S1 imho.
nothing should leave hethel that doesn't punch above its weight. you know that vx based europa ? if it would have had 280+ bhp day 1 it would have cleared up. building an average product just for cashflow IS why we are here now .... engine not good enough? the chief executive should do his job, either get the other division to mod it so it is, find a new suppler or source funds to build one of their own.
lotus needs a completely new product line that performs, at the least DB is right about that ! somone will have to pay for it ....
I understand you want a Lotus that is a better outright performer than its competition , the problem is we dont currently know exactly how fast the Fuji Esprit will be.
Bahar reeled of some hyperthetical performance figures at the grand unveil of the 5 mock ups, but whos not to say that by the time the car is actually ready to be sold (2014?) that Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Aston Martin, McLaren etc havent all raised the bar sufficiently so Lotus arent at the bottom of the statistical pile again?
I run into alot of guys who can spout off the manufacturers performance figures for their sportscars (usually in a bar or pub), sad fact is that few of them can drive well enough to replicate them.
My take on the outright performance thing is that as long as the car is as fast as I need it to be its all good.
(PS I dont need a car that will do 0:60 in 3 secs and do over 200mph ATM.)
Bahar reeled of some hyperthetical performance figures at the grand unveil of the 5 mock ups, but whos not to say that by the time the car is actually ready to be sold (2014?) that Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Aston Martin, McLaren etc havent all raised the bar sufficiently so Lotus arent at the bottom of the statistical pile again?
I run into alot of guys who can spout off the manufacturers performance figures for their sportscars (usually in a bar or pub), sad fact is that few of them can drive well enough to replicate them.
My take on the outright performance thing is that as long as the car is as fast as I need it to be its all good.
(PS I dont need a car that will do 0:60 in 3 secs and do over 200mph ATM.)
WayneB said:
My take on the outright performance thing is that as long as the car is as fast as I need it to be its all good.
The trouble is, Lotus don't have the image, so they have to offer more for less. That's hit the Evora, it hit the Esprit, the Excel and most cars Lotus have produced. These days, it is extraordinarily hard to produce a niche sports car down to the sort of mass market prices that are seen as acceptable. So a decent performance has to be part of the package.It's the same as the driver's car argument. You can't hide behind one outstanding quality. Modern cars are much better, more rounded performers. To compete, you've got to compete on price, performance, quality, image and yes handling. If your competitors are beating you on four out of the five, it's no good saying, "yes, but it's a driver's car".
Tuna said:
The trouble is, Lotus don't have the image, so they have to offer more for less. That's hit the Evora, it hit the Esprit, the Excel and most cars Lotus have produced. These days, it is extraordinarily hard to produce a niche sports car down to the sort of mass market prices that are seen as acceptable. So a decent performance has to be part of the package.
It's the same as the driver's car argument. You can't hide behind one outstanding quality. Modern cars are much better, more rounded performers. To compete, you've got to compete on price, performance, quality, image and yes handling. If your competitors are beating you on four out of the five, it's no good saying, "yes, but it's a driver's car".
well, that's a first!It's the same as the driver's car argument. You can't hide behind one outstanding quality. Modern cars are much better, more rounded performers. To compete, you've got to compete on price, performance, quality, image and yes handling. If your competitors are beating you on four out of the five, it's no good saying, "yes, but it's a driver's car".
I actually agree with you!
morning chaps...
that's fair enough but in reality the market doesn't share that opinion - if the co is to survive its needs a viable product(s) that competes which will eventually translate into sales. so far we have 1 that may not even turn up. grim or what !
that's fair enough but in reality the market doesn't share that opinion - if the co is to survive its needs a viable product(s) that competes which will eventually translate into sales. so far we have 1 that may not even turn up. grim or what !
WayneB said:
My take on the outright performance thing is that as long as the car is as fast as I need it to be its all good.
(PS I dont need a car that will do 0:60 in 3 secs and do over 200mph ATM.)
(PS I dont need a car that will do 0:60 in 3 secs and do over 200mph ATM.)
Meanwhile at the Bahar mansion:-
http://www.edp24.co.uk/business/suspended_lotus_bo...
Anyone for tennis? :lol:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1-NpyaOWV0
http://www.edp24.co.uk/business/suspended_lotus_bo...
Anyone for tennis? :lol:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1-NpyaOWV0
Edited by WayneB on Wednesday 30th May 14:51
Wayne, if you do genuinely want Lotus to come out of this as a working car company, rather than being stripped into its component pieces, perhaps you should avoid just regurgitating gossip pieces.
You might find this analysis more informative http://skiddmark.com/2012/05/dany-bahar-of-lotus-s...
It may be wrong, but it's a heap better than vague insinuations that the CEO of a multi-million pound manufacturer has (shock! horror!) been handling some very large sums of money.
As for the commentary coming out from Malaysia about the success of the turn around plan, I think this has been discussed before, and was largely coming from investment analysts who were talking down the investment rather than passing any knowledgeable judgement about the work being done at Hethel.
You might find this analysis more informative http://skiddmark.com/2012/05/dany-bahar-of-lotus-s...
It may be wrong, but it's a heap better than vague insinuations that the CEO of a multi-million pound manufacturer has (shock! horror!) been handling some very large sums of money.
As for the commentary coming out from Malaysia about the success of the turn around plan, I think this has been discussed before, and was largely coming from investment analysts who were talking down the investment rather than passing any knowledgeable judgement about the work being done at Hethel.
Tuna, sorry to say this but Dany's gone and it was not my fault.
The post was intended to lighten the mood somewhat, but I guess you didnt get it because your mourning the loss of your hero.
So dont start trying to hang the blame for the current Lotus fiasco on people who saw right through the smoke and mirrors from the start.
The post was intended to lighten the mood somewhat, but I guess you didnt get it because your mourning the loss of your hero.
So dont start trying to hang the blame for the current Lotus fiasco on people who saw right through the smoke and mirrors from the start.
WayneB said:
Tuna, sorry to say this but Dany's gone and it was not my fault.
The post was intended to lighten the mood somewhat, but I guess you didnt get it because your mourning the loss of your hero.
So dont start trying to hang the blame for the current Lotus fiasco on people who saw right through the smoke and mirrors from the start.
Umm... you missed my point by a country mile. I have no feelings either way about Bahar. I do believe Lotus has to change to survive, and whether it was Bahar, or MJK or anyone who delivered it, I would cheer them on.The post was intended to lighten the mood somewhat, but I guess you didnt get it because your mourning the loss of your hero.
So dont start trying to hang the blame for the current Lotus fiasco on people who saw right through the smoke and mirrors from the start.
However, this may be the last gasp for Lotus as a car manufacturer. The DRB-HICOM takeover could hardly have come at a worse time, and though the recent cars are a welcome sight they are absolutely not going to save the company.
I picked on your links because they're just mindless gossip from journalists who frankly haven't a clue - they add absolutely nothing. This is the same level of discussion that led to MP asking questions in the houses of parliament that could have been seriously damaging for Lotus.
I appreciate you don't believe in a need to change, and have a personal dislike of Bahar. But surely you must realise that just repeating moronic gossip helps no-one and further damages the reputation of the whole company? The Elise had almost banished the 'Loads of Trouble Usually Serious' cliche, and now attacks like this have revised it and applied it to the whole company. You may not like Bahar, but do you really think the hundreds of other employees deserve to be tarred with the same brush?
There is some intelligent analysis of the current situation - why not link to that instead of flinging sh*t?
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