Lotus:- The End?
Discussion
Lotus is currently making a substantial loss and has significant debts/outstanding loans. Who is going to be prepared to invest substantial amounts of new money, whilst at the same time servicing the existing debts and carrying the ongoing losses?
I don't believe Lotus will ever sell the volume of cars necessary to be truly successful, and their current overheads are way too big for them to be a niche player.
It isn't a question of can it be done, rather why anyone in their right mind would take it on! The name isn't that good, and the sector where the name is well respected has proved to be too small to be profitable.
I don't believe Lotus will ever sell the volume of cars necessary to be truly successful, and their current overheads are way too big for them to be a niche player.
It isn't a question of can it be done, rather why anyone in their right mind would take it on! The name isn't that good, and the sector where the name is well respected has proved to be too small to be profitable.
what about that pre VAG dog skoda. i assume you wouldn't have made a business case for buying them then either?
RYH64E said:
Lotus is currently making a substantial loss and has significant debts/outstanding loans. Who is going to be prepared to invest substantial amounts of new money, whilst at the same time servicing the existing debts and carrying the ongoing losses?
I don't believe Lotus will ever sell the volume of cars necessary to be truly successful, and their current overheads are way too big for them to be a niche player.
It isn't a question of can it be done, rather why anyone in their right mind would take it on! The name isn't that good, and the sector where the name is well respected has proved to be too small to be profitable.
I don't believe Lotus will ever sell the volume of cars necessary to be truly successful, and their current overheads are way too big for them to be a niche player.
It isn't a question of can it be done, rather why anyone in their right mind would take it on! The name isn't that good, and the sector where the name is well respected has proved to be too small to be profitable.
Edited by bobo on Monday 15th October 20:02
RYH64E said:
C1RVY said:
Can't help thinking some of the posters on here must have shares in the opposition 
I'd guess that most of the posters here are current or ex Lotus owners, myself included. I'm also a life long West Ham supporter, doesn't stop me thinking that they're a bit rubbish.There are 2 really big reasons not to buy one - the entry level car is nearly £30k and they're too focussed to be a European 'touring' car for a couple.
precisely not even 600bhp for £60k... you will never want one. you simply hate the brand. i never thought you would admit it though, kind of weakens all of your arguments going forward.
Scuffers said:
it's way to simplistic to say it's all about power.
even if it had 600Hp, I would still not want one.
Yes, it's too slow, but that's just ONE problem with it.
even if it had 600Hp, I would still not want one.
Yes, it's too slow, but that's just ONE problem with it.
bobo said:
precisely not even 600bhp for £60k... you will never want one. you simply hate the brand. i never thought you would admit it though, kind of weakens all of your arguments going forward.
sorry? where did that come from?May I remind you I currently own a couple of Lotus's and have had quite a few over the last 10+ years, still race them whenever I can, and actually put the 'brand' as you put it at the front of most grids...
what exactly have you done to promote the brand?
To be fair Bobo I think Scuffers was saying there are other problems with the Evora besides the lack of power that put him off owning one and not that he hates Lotus. I actually think it is an excellent car but is too highly priced for what you get and that is coming from someone who bought a Europa S2 new!
back to the Evora...
the problem as I see it is it's a car without a market.
as in, who exactly is going to buy it? even if you cut the price to £40K (base), it's still not going to sell in the kind of numbers required to justify it's costs.
it's the one thing I agree with Dannyboy on, and to put it bluntly, I don't think anything they do to it now is going to help.
it's not about the engine per say (although that really does not help), the basic issues are that some marketing muppet deemed their was a market for a mid-engines 2+2 (I actually had this argument with said marketing muppet ~6 years ago, he was utterly convinced it was going to fly even though every other makers that's tried it have fell flat on their face including Ferrari).
this is all not helped by the 'odd' body design with it's awkward back corners etc.
most of this is academic as it's clearly a failure and Lotus need to move on, the question is where's the money going to come from?
the problem as I see it is it's a car without a market.
as in, who exactly is going to buy it? even if you cut the price to £40K (base), it's still not going to sell in the kind of numbers required to justify it's costs.
it's the one thing I agree with Dannyboy on, and to put it bluntly, I don't think anything they do to it now is going to help.
it's not about the engine per say (although that really does not help), the basic issues are that some marketing muppet deemed their was a market for a mid-engines 2+2 (I actually had this argument with said marketing muppet ~6 years ago, he was utterly convinced it was going to fly even though every other makers that's tried it have fell flat on their face including Ferrari).
this is all not helped by the 'odd' body design with it's awkward back corners etc.
most of this is academic as it's clearly a failure and Lotus need to move on, the question is where's the money going to come from?
Norgles said:
To be fair Bobo I think Scuffers was saying there are other problems with the Evora besides the lack of power that put him off owning one and not that he hates Lotus. I actually think it is an excellent car but is too highly priced for what you get and that is coming from someone who bought a Europa S2 new!
Erm Scuffers is one vocal person with an opinion which to be honest he is entitled to but its not the only opinion it may have some truth but it is in the end a view it cannot and does not reflect the view of all Toaster said:
Erm Scuffers is one vocal person with an opinion which to be honest he is entitled to but its not the only opinion it may have some truth but it is in the end a view it cannot and does not reflect the view of all
I could not agree more. I was merely pointing out that he did not say he hated the brand only that he would not buy an Evora. As I said I really like the Evora (I have driven several) but think it is priced slighty too high for what it is, but then people see value in things in different ways. I am sure that some people think it is fairly priced, I thought that about the Europa but many thought the opposite hence the low numbes it sold in.
Scuffers said:
the basic issues are that some marketing muppet deemed their was a market for a mid-engines 2+2
I agree with this comment. The 2+2 layout is a compromise that doesn't really work. Lotus should either have built a full 4 seater or stayed with 2 seats. The +2 adds usability for anyone with small-to-medium sized kids, but those kids quickly grow into big kids who won't tolerate sitting in the back of an Evora. I don't know how easy it is to fit a small child in the back of an Evora once you add a huge child/booster seat.For me, the omissions from the range are the Esprit and a front engined Elan - both 2 seaters.
Why oh why didn't they do something as simple as put the Mansory body kit on the Evora? I think that would have kick started sales if they genuinely had an interest in continuing with the car. It would have cost very little money to make the manufacturing changes. I believe one of the biggest issues the car has is simply how it looks.
Either that or just kill the Evora off as nobody is buying them.
Either that or just kill the Evora off as nobody is buying them.
Tuna said:
That's the flawed logic in all it's glory. No-one is buying Evoras, or Exiges, or Elises either. The problems go way beyond the merits of individual models.
Absolutely. And the overheads are such that you can't just continue with business as usual until some new models appear without hemorrhaging cash at an (imo) unsustainable rate. I'm not knocking Lotus, but you can't ignore the financial realities of the current situation.keep your knickers on scuffers, it was simply an observation.
you do realize the brand is the evora and the s2? not an s1 on pole on a track on a sunday? so far f1 cars doing rather well arnt converting into sales so your definition of 'promotion' isn't on the money.
the weakness of products of the brand is what we are discussing here. to put it another way that wont incur your displeasure to the same extent; i think there's a good probability that a £60k - 600bhp evora would sell in whacking great big numbers. to think otherwise suggests a bit of tunnel vision.
hows that?
you do realize the brand is the evora and the s2? not an s1 on pole on a track on a sunday? so far f1 cars doing rather well arnt converting into sales so your definition of 'promotion' isn't on the money.
the weakness of products of the brand is what we are discussing here. to put it another way that wont incur your displeasure to the same extent; i think there's a good probability that a £60k - 600bhp evora would sell in whacking great big numbers. to think otherwise suggests a bit of tunnel vision.
hows that?
Scuffers said:
sorry? where did that come from?
May I remind you I currently own a couple of Lotus's and have had quite a few over the last 10+ years, still race them whenever I can, and actually put the 'brand' as you put it at the front of most grids...
what exactly have you done to promote the brand?
May I remind you I currently own a couple of Lotus's and have had quite a few over the last 10+ years, still race them whenever I can, and actually put the 'brand' as you put it at the front of most grids...
what exactly have you done to promote the brand?
bobo said:
what about that pre VAG dog skoda. i assume you wouldn't have made a business case for buying them then either?
Exactly! Maserati too were struggling as were Lamborghini and look at them now (not to mention Lada and Dacia too - but in quite different markets). In fact many companies have been bought, invested in and now turn out leading cars. RYH64E said:
Lotus is currently making a substantial loss and has significant debts/outstanding loans. Who is going to be prepared to invest substantial amounts of new money, whilst at the same time servicing the existing debts and carrying the ongoing losses?
I don't believe Lotus will ever sell the volume of cars necessary to be truly successful, and their current overheads are way too big for them to be a niche player.
It isn't a question of can it be done, rather why anyone in their right mind would take it on! The name isn't that good, and the sector where the name is well respected has proved to be too small to be profitable.
I don't believe Lotus will ever sell the volume of cars necessary to be truly successful, and their current overheads are way too big for them to be a niche player.
It isn't a question of can it be done, rather why anyone in their right mind would take it on! The name isn't that good, and the sector where the name is well respected has proved to be too small to be profitable.
Edited by bobo on Monday 15th October 20:02
Lotus can easily make cars profitably, its not just about the sale price, its about the cost to build them and sell them. People who have had Porsches forever need the option to have something else and Lotus could be the best option IMO.
I predict that DRB's 3 yr plan will go ahead and near the end they'll sell the company on. They just want to create some value in the company before they sell it so that they can maximise their return.
Apologies, long rambling post coming up!
The problems Lotus have are three fold to my mind - the economy, the niche markets they work in due to the car line up, and the size of the company.
We're still in recession/recovering from a recession, and this leads to fewer people willing to throw money at a weekend toy. Food on the table and a buffer in case of redundancy are more important.
There are, granted, people willing to compromise enough to run one of the cars as a daily driver, but these people are, I imagine, generally younger men and as a result generally don't have £30k lying around to buy a new Lotus - they're more likely to spend half that on a used one, which is fine, but doesn't help Lotus overly. Alas on "normal" career paths the younger guy either doesn't earn enough to buy one, or works in a bank earning "too much" and buys the traditional 911 instead, skipping over the Lotus.
The cars they produce aren't selling (for whatever reason) in large enough numbers - I'd argue it's price and positioning personally... 30k is a lot for a car which isn't quite as track focussed as a Caterham, or as usable as a daily "sports" car when compared to a Z4/TT/Boxster/whatever. 60k is an awful lot to ask for a car if it's the only sports car in the garage (I believe people will opt for the more prestigious badges instead), and it's not an obvious one to add to a collection of cars.
The two issues above wouldn't be too much of a problem if Lotus were a Caterham sized business, but they're not. Too large to be a small volume manufacturer and get away with it, too small to be able to compete with the big boys - their fixed costs will be what kills them in the end I suspect.
The problems Lotus have are three fold to my mind - the economy, the niche markets they work in due to the car line up, and the size of the company.
We're still in recession/recovering from a recession, and this leads to fewer people willing to throw money at a weekend toy. Food on the table and a buffer in case of redundancy are more important.
There are, granted, people willing to compromise enough to run one of the cars as a daily driver, but these people are, I imagine, generally younger men and as a result generally don't have £30k lying around to buy a new Lotus - they're more likely to spend half that on a used one, which is fine, but doesn't help Lotus overly. Alas on "normal" career paths the younger guy either doesn't earn enough to buy one, or works in a bank earning "too much" and buys the traditional 911 instead, skipping over the Lotus.
The cars they produce aren't selling (for whatever reason) in large enough numbers - I'd argue it's price and positioning personally... 30k is a lot for a car which isn't quite as track focussed as a Caterham, or as usable as a daily "sports" car when compared to a Z4/TT/Boxster/whatever. 60k is an awful lot to ask for a car if it's the only sports car in the garage (I believe people will opt for the more prestigious badges instead), and it's not an obvious one to add to a collection of cars.
The two issues above wouldn't be too much of a problem if Lotus were a Caterham sized business, but they're not. Too large to be a small volume manufacturer and get away with it, too small to be able to compete with the big boys - their fixed costs will be what kills them in the end I suspect.
Edited by DanL on Tuesday 16th October 13:52
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