Discussion
I got my first Aston-Martin DB2 shortly after the Bond 007 "Gold finger" film was released and was going the rounds, the engine was smashed so it was quite a while untill the engine was repaired .During the delay I used the time to do a complete repaint in copper/gold metallic , just a fab colour at that period to flash about and "put on the style", unfortunately before I had the opportunity to enjoy the fruits of all my hard work some scumbag stole the car out of my private driveway,
I made the usual reports but I did not hear anything, untill sometime later a very rare Rover Marauder 2 seater special disappeared under similar circumstances from my driveway but this time the police had a lead and traced the car to a scrap- metal yard in Sparkbrook B'ham run by immigrants whos only interest was the value of the aluminum bodies etc. when the police arrived it was too late the car was all torn apart. Another victim to metal poachers.My next Aston a DB6 manual trans model took a few more years but it was worth the wait,but thats another story !
I made the usual reports but I did not hear anything, untill sometime later a very rare Rover Marauder 2 seater special disappeared under similar circumstances from my driveway but this time the police had a lead and traced the car to a scrap- metal yard in Sparkbrook B'ham run by immigrants whos only interest was the value of the aluminum bodies etc. when the police arrived it was too late the car was all torn apart. Another victim to metal poachers.My next Aston a DB6 manual trans model took a few more years but it was worth the wait,but thats another story !
This Aston DB6 fullfilled my urge to own what most people consider to be the ultimate in classic cars however the end result was a little bit frustrating because at the time my wife had a Lotus Elan plus2 so we made comparisons which is probably a bit unfair.The Aston was a manual transmission model with no power steering which made it feel rather heavy , she called my car "the worlds fastest truck" and would not drive it (thank goodness!!).Back then we had no speed limits on the motorways and it was common practice to drive around at well over 100mph most of the time untill one day I decided to drive from B'ham to Earls- court motorshow and back at 130mph. The crankshaft bearings failed about 10 miles short of my destination and I managed to struggle home with zero oil pressure but no broken rods. While the engine was out being repaired which took forever and cost a fortune I got the loan of a Shelby Cobra Mustang convertible 427cubic"V8 which was set up on American "polyglas" tires which turned out be positively lethal in the wet, but thats another story !! 
lowdrag said:
I have to laugh when I get other owners who say that their cars are "completely original" so I ask them how fast they have been in this "original car" and they reply with some very high figure. |I immediately reply by saying (Nigel is in the aeroplane trade - Tony) that ]"well in aviation dear chap we don't fly planes with 40/60 yr old rivets holding it together!"How safe is that? As a licenced aircraft engineer I suggest you reconsider!.
That's not strictly true. Look at any DC3, or a good number of other large warbirds. richw_82 said:
That's not strictly true. Look at any DC3, or a good number of other large warbirds.
imo , theres very few that havent had complete rebuilds especialy in the case of warbirds , with most Mustangs running their merlins at twice the power output that" old reggie" designed them for
DBSV8 said:
imo , theres very few that havent had complete rebuilds especialy in the case of warbirds ,
with most Mustangs running their merlins at twice the power output that" old reggie" designed them for
Fighters, I'll accept. They are a manageable size to be completely disassembled. with most Mustangs running their merlins at twice the power output that" old reggie" designed them for
Something like the B29 flying in the USA, or any other simailar aged large aircraft is unlikely to have been completely deriveted into component parts and every rivet replaced, they're just too big. Its one of the reasons the flying Avro Vulcan had to have comparative tests done on another static airframe, as some areas had never been apart.
Rivets are replaced when they're highly stressed and will only have a certain lifespan, or if they're of a dissimilar metal to the main structure and corrode. The latter is probably what causes the D-type's issues rather than its age.
rolymo said:
Facel-vega HK500. Do you think this is "drooling material" my old Hot-Rod with Mopar V8 special edition 361 cubic inch fitted with twin 4 barrel carters, high rise manifold and a hot camshaft, Wow! that was a "Blitz"
I do love an HK500, never seen a customised one before!When I started to drive the HK500 around there were continual moans from the Mrs about who was having all the fun, so to make peace and quite in the garage I got her a new toy, a "girlie" Facel-Vega Facelia Twin-cam DHC.When the car arrived it was BRGreen but that was not acceptable for madame so a repaint into signal-red was arranged .After a short time we were involved with some pretty extensive engine modifications to overcome some of the design shortcomings and after that the car performed extremely well for the remaining time in our keeping . 
I've just read your post (by rolymo) from thurs 2nd feb where you mentioned you had a marauder sports car that was unfortunately scrapped.
I have one of the 15 marauders made (being slowly restored) and I think there are only two missing. Most of the Marauders are road worthy and so a very good survival rate. Do you have any information of the car you had, reg. number, chassis number, photos. Maybe your car and its fate is well known in marauder/Rover circles but I haven't heard this story before. Any info. would be interesting as it may confirm the history of a lost car.
I have one of the 15 marauders made (being slowly restored) and I think there are only two missing. Most of the Marauders are road worthy and so a very good survival rate. Do you have any information of the car you had, reg. number, chassis number, photos. Maybe your car and its fate is well known in marauder/Rover circles but I haven't heard this story before. Any info. would be interesting as it may confirm the history of a lost car.
Edited by Rawver on Saturday 10th March 08:16
I have recently seen the January and February posts by "Lowdrag" referring to the authenticity of Jaguar cars as recognized by the JDHT. Although everyone is due the benefit of their own opinion this is not an area that bears such grace. Unfortunately "Lowdrag" has repeatedly relied upon the JDHT certificate of "heritage" as THE defining factor of authenticity to a particular car. Yes the JDHT does dispense a "Heritage Certificate" for Jaguar produced cars. However this is NOT a certificate of authenticity, it is rather a confirmation of the original specifications for which the car was originally produced. The JDHT themselves do not do an inspection of the particular car nor do they authorize or request any 3rd party inspection of the car in question in order to assure accuracy or authenticity. What they do offer in presenting the "Hertiage Certificate" is that the car MUST be recorded in the "production book" record for sales of Jaguar cars. If the car does not appear in the "record book" then the JDHT cannot provide a "Heritage Certificate" for the car. There are seveal reasons why a car may not appear in the "record book." in the case of factory team racing cars there are several of them that have blank spaces where their record should be. One very prominent example is XKD605, the longnose D-Type owned by the JDHT themselves. XKD605 has no entry in the "record book." The JDHT XKD605 can NEVER have a "Heritige Certificate" awarded to it. This fact does not make XKD605 non-authentic, it mearly means that there is no record of it for disposition from the factory. All of these facts were explained to me by the curator of the JDHT himself.
Regarding the history of XKD505, I have no personal knowledge of that car so I cannot comment on it's history or presence in the "record book." The ONLY reason it could not be provided a "Heritage Certificate" is that it is not recorded in the "record book." This fact alone does not substantiate or disprove it's authenticity. So to use that as a reason for accepting the authenticity of the car itself is ludicrous.
Regarding the history of XKD604, as the owner of this prticular car I have spent a great deal of time in reseaqrch of it's authenticity, to the point of specific and meticulous metalurgic testing of the Jaguar factory number stamped parts, etc. It is apparent that XKD604 was never "sold" but given to Ecurie Ecosse around the time that XKD603, XKD606 and XKD504 were sold to the EE team. XKD604 was moderately damaged at Silverstone in May 1956 and never repaired as it was redundant to the factory team needs. There were 6 cars produced as factory team cars in 1956 and the only Jaguar factory race effort left after the May Silverstone race program was Le Mans 1956 - XKD604 was simply not needed in filling that commitment. XKD604 languished in the experimental department after the Jaguar race program was shut down and the car was subsequently loaded on a trailer and taken to EE by "Wilkie" himself, all under the supervision and direct observation of Norman Dewis - all of these facts are substantiated by the only first person whitness, Norman Dewis.
To set the record straight regarding my personal contact with "Lowdrag" yes, I did meet him at Le Mans but at no time did we have a conversation about XKD604 being the "real thing." XKD604 is what it is. A full story of it can be found on the "Coventryracers" web site. I was at Le Mans in the capacity of Jaguar team photographer and "Lowdrag" came by the Jaguar team garage on a "fan/vistors walk" period and introduced himself by asking if anybody could identify a picture he weilded of his replica 1952 C-Type. As a former owner of XKC037 I was quite familier with C-Types and of course knew of the "long tail" 1952 cars. I introduced myself as I had never met "Lowdrag" and from his demeanor I realized that I knew who he was but he did not know who I was. A little further enlightenment and he then understood I was the owner of XKD604 - that was the end of the content of our meeting. I have always represented XKD604 as it truly is, nothing more. However to utilize the "JDHT Heritage Certificate" as THE defining factor of a particular cars authenticity is just plain incorrect and a false representation.
Regarding the history of XKD505, I have no personal knowledge of that car so I cannot comment on it's history or presence in the "record book." The ONLY reason it could not be provided a "Heritage Certificate" is that it is not recorded in the "record book." This fact alone does not substantiate or disprove it's authenticity. So to use that as a reason for accepting the authenticity of the car itself is ludicrous.
Regarding the history of XKD604, as the owner of this prticular car I have spent a great deal of time in reseaqrch of it's authenticity, to the point of specific and meticulous metalurgic testing of the Jaguar factory number stamped parts, etc. It is apparent that XKD604 was never "sold" but given to Ecurie Ecosse around the time that XKD603, XKD606 and XKD504 were sold to the EE team. XKD604 was moderately damaged at Silverstone in May 1956 and never repaired as it was redundant to the factory team needs. There were 6 cars produced as factory team cars in 1956 and the only Jaguar factory race effort left after the May Silverstone race program was Le Mans 1956 - XKD604 was simply not needed in filling that commitment. XKD604 languished in the experimental department after the Jaguar race program was shut down and the car was subsequently loaded on a trailer and taken to EE by "Wilkie" himself, all under the supervision and direct observation of Norman Dewis - all of these facts are substantiated by the only first person whitness, Norman Dewis.
To set the record straight regarding my personal contact with "Lowdrag" yes, I did meet him at Le Mans but at no time did we have a conversation about XKD604 being the "real thing." XKD604 is what it is. A full story of it can be found on the "Coventryracers" web site. I was at Le Mans in the capacity of Jaguar team photographer and "Lowdrag" came by the Jaguar team garage on a "fan/vistors walk" period and introduced himself by asking if anybody could identify a picture he weilded of his replica 1952 C-Type. As a former owner of XKC037 I was quite familier with C-Types and of course knew of the "long tail" 1952 cars. I introduced myself as I had never met "Lowdrag" and from his demeanor I realized that I knew who he was but he did not know who I was. A little further enlightenment and he then understood I was the owner of XKD604 - that was the end of the content of our meeting. I have always represented XKD604 as it truly is, nothing more. However to utilize the "JDHT Heritage Certificate" as THE defining factor of a particular cars authenticity is just plain incorrect and a false representation.
well looking at the Coventry register it reveals
XKD570
According to "Jaguar D Type &XKSS" by Graham Robson car was dismantled for spares.
Yet XKD570 is up for sale at Duncan hamiltons
http://www.coventryracers.com/cars/detail/?car=XKD...
http://www.duncanhamilton.com/cars-for-sale/compet...
So it begs the question how accurate is the Coventry register ??
XKD570
According to "Jaguar D Type &XKSS" by Graham Robson car was dismantled for spares.
Yet XKD570 is up for sale at Duncan hamiltons
http://www.coventryracers.com/cars/detail/?car=XKD...
http://www.duncanhamilton.com/cars-for-sale/compet...
So it begs the question how accurate is the Coventry register ??
And therein lies the rub. How do you define a "real" car as opposed to a recreation? Do we go by all the history books, wherein the history shows that 570 was never sold, was never painted, and the engine and gearbox removed for 403?
Do we go by the Jaguar Works notebook wherein it is stated that following its first outing at Silverstone with Desmond Titterington at the helm XKD 604 "Crashed - complete write-off. Towed home on trailer and stripped down 7th and 8th May 1956"? Andrew Whyte also states that "Some bits doubtless cannabilised for other cars". Philip Porter notes "dismantled by works".
It is paradoxical that a "woodman's axe" having had five heads and seven shafts, is more acceptable historically than some other cars, and XKD 403 is such a car in point. Raced at le Mans 1954 - retired, later changed to 2.5 litre engine, sold and raced by Bob Berry and then crashed in the TT that year, causing a frame replacement; virtually written off at Goodwood and parts cannabilised from either 548 or 570 - no one seems to know which - then another accident in Canada in which the driver was killed. Years later the wreck was returned to the UK and rebuilt once again, sold to Jim Wallis (I drove it briefly at Donington 1992) and after his death now resides in Phoenix. Now this car is a true woodman's axe, but it has continuous history so is accorded and accepted as being the "original" car.
If we now turn to 604, the parts of the dismantled car were sent to Ecurie Ecosse and when they sold off their stock in - I think - 1983 the various parts of 604 were built up over a few years into a new car. Therein lies a history which caution and propriety forbids be told but I only take issue with the car because between 1956 and around 1989 it didn't exist. I've no doubt it has the correct chassis as stated, possibly many other original parts too but then you only have to look at page 542 of the Andrew Whyte tome to see a youthful Guy Black (who founded Lynx) sitting in the chassis of 505 which was found in 504 and is well documented as being used to build a completely new car, the original, the 1955 Le Mans winner, being last known to have existed on 16/6/1958. No other claimant to 604 exists or else in view of the value of these cars today a right royal court case would no doubt have ensued as to who owns the "real" car, but in all probability no matter what the result of such a hypothetical court case it would be highly probable that neither car was fully correct since parts of the original would be residing in both claimants.
I repeat, my only dispute is that the history of many a car is shrouded in mystery. It was Brian Lister who wryly commented that "More Listers exist today than I ever built". There were quite a few examples of duplicate D-types existing, but over the last few years most cases have been resolved and the parts amalgamated into one car, the other being sold off as a replica. It is without doubt that there isn't one D-type out there that is original, since it is the very nature of things that racing cars will race, will blow engines, will have accidents, will need more frequent parts changes than a road car, so none, unless put in a cocoon from manufacture, are "original", but then such a car would be dangerous if ever driven.
This is a tortuous world of claim and counter-claim,and I am in full admiration of a current car wherein the owner has publicly stated that, using parts acquired over the years, he has recreated a lost car but does not lay claim that it is "the" car. To finish, my point about the notorious Heritage Certificate is that the JDHT will only certify cars with known and continuous history wherein there can be no shade of doubt that it is "the" car. It is their only way of giving a stamp of approval to a car, just like Ferrari have latterly introduced. Even some Ferrari owners have been severely shocked and their bank balances lightened by the refusal of such a certificate.
Do we go by the Jaguar Works notebook wherein it is stated that following its first outing at Silverstone with Desmond Titterington at the helm XKD 604 "Crashed - complete write-off. Towed home on trailer and stripped down 7th and 8th May 1956"? Andrew Whyte also states that "Some bits doubtless cannabilised for other cars". Philip Porter notes "dismantled by works".
It is paradoxical that a "woodman's axe" having had five heads and seven shafts, is more acceptable historically than some other cars, and XKD 403 is such a car in point. Raced at le Mans 1954 - retired, later changed to 2.5 litre engine, sold and raced by Bob Berry and then crashed in the TT that year, causing a frame replacement; virtually written off at Goodwood and parts cannabilised from either 548 or 570 - no one seems to know which - then another accident in Canada in which the driver was killed. Years later the wreck was returned to the UK and rebuilt once again, sold to Jim Wallis (I drove it briefly at Donington 1992) and after his death now resides in Phoenix. Now this car is a true woodman's axe, but it has continuous history so is accorded and accepted as being the "original" car.
If we now turn to 604, the parts of the dismantled car were sent to Ecurie Ecosse and when they sold off their stock in - I think - 1983 the various parts of 604 were built up over a few years into a new car. Therein lies a history which caution and propriety forbids be told but I only take issue with the car because between 1956 and around 1989 it didn't exist. I've no doubt it has the correct chassis as stated, possibly many other original parts too but then you only have to look at page 542 of the Andrew Whyte tome to see a youthful Guy Black (who founded Lynx) sitting in the chassis of 505 which was found in 504 and is well documented as being used to build a completely new car, the original, the 1955 Le Mans winner, being last known to have existed on 16/6/1958. No other claimant to 604 exists or else in view of the value of these cars today a right royal court case would no doubt have ensued as to who owns the "real" car, but in all probability no matter what the result of such a hypothetical court case it would be highly probable that neither car was fully correct since parts of the original would be residing in both claimants.
I repeat, my only dispute is that the history of many a car is shrouded in mystery. It was Brian Lister who wryly commented that "More Listers exist today than I ever built". There were quite a few examples of duplicate D-types existing, but over the last few years most cases have been resolved and the parts amalgamated into one car, the other being sold off as a replica. It is without doubt that there isn't one D-type out there that is original, since it is the very nature of things that racing cars will race, will blow engines, will have accidents, will need more frequent parts changes than a road car, so none, unless put in a cocoon from manufacture, are "original", but then such a car would be dangerous if ever driven.
This is a tortuous world of claim and counter-claim,and I am in full admiration of a current car wherein the owner has publicly stated that, using parts acquired over the years, he has recreated a lost car but does not lay claim that it is "the" car. To finish, my point about the notorious Heritage Certificate is that the JDHT will only certify cars with known and continuous history wherein there can be no shade of doubt that it is "the" car. It is their only way of giving a stamp of approval to a car, just like Ferrari have latterly introduced. Even some Ferrari owners have been severely shocked and their bank balances lightened by the refusal of such a certificate.
DBSV8 said:
well looking at the Coventry register it reveals
XKD570
According to "Jaguar D Type &XKSS" by Graham Robson car was dismantled for spares.
Yet XKD570 is up for sale at Duncan hamiltons
http://www.coventryracers.com/cars/detail/?car=XKD...
http://www.duncanhamilton.com/cars-for-sale/compet...
So it begs the question how accurate is the Coventry register ??
Not sure about the Coventry register either. I notice the 64 ex-Robert Ropner E-type is represented (by the site) as a "full" lightweightXKD570
According to "Jaguar D Type &XKSS" by Graham Robson car was dismantled for spares.
Yet XKD570 is up for sale at Duncan hamiltons
http://www.coventryracers.com/cars/detail/?car=XKD...
http://www.duncanhamilton.com/cars-for-sale/compet...
So it begs the question how accurate is the Coventry register ??
on there. So now there are 13?
http://www.coventryracers.com/cars/detail/?car=S85...
stuarte said:
So now there are 13?
The Ropner car, recently sold at around £1.3 million, was never a lightweight but a semi-lightweight. But, perversely, there are actually 13 lightweights in existence. In 1982, JCB sold off their stock of lightweight parts acquired from the factory in the 1960s. There was enough material to actually make a completely new lightweight, including body, engine,gearbox and all, and this was done by Lynx. The car was sold for £30,000 and is still in the same ownership today and probaby is worth around a million (half that when I enquired a year back but that's how the market has moved). Less than one of the 12, but a car with impeccable provenance just the same. Here's the Ropner car which was used "for traffic light Grand Prix use" but never saw a track. Webers, alloy bonnet doors and boot lid, but steel monocoque.
Edited by lowdrag on Tuesday 20th March 17:16
I appreciate "Lowdrag's" opinion however I MUST reinterate regarding some mis-statements. Regarding the disposition of XKD604, the car was damaged in the Silverstone race. It was not dismantled as it remained in the experimental (race team) shop in "as damaged" condition. Norman Dewis reported that the damaged condition of the car did not warrant a "write off" label. Rather the Jaguar works were not interested in affording time and money to repair the car. Futher the misery nature of Sir William Lyons would not desire or allow the time, labor and money to "strip" a damaged car they had no intent on repairing just to acquire parts for cars they had no intention of ever campainging again. XKD604 languished in the experimental department in "as damaged" condition and was picked-up by "Wilkie" as part of the deal sending the remainder of the works cars to EE. Now you can say that since the Jaguar works was not going to repair the car they in turn considered it a "write-off" but that is a statement of value to the Jaguar factory purposes, NOT any indication of the cars actual condition. Quite frankly it is most probable that to clear the factory record books, and shift the car to the EE team as simply and expeditiously as possible, XKD604 was marked as a "write off" or marked "scrapped" in the "works notebook" regarding the car and its disposition (although no one has actually produced such a notebook - further Norman Dewis states that Andrew Whyte was an appretice at the time of XKD604's life at the factory and was not involved in his experimental department, thus Whyte had no real personal knowledge of such events). All pictures of XKD604 post-accident at Silverstone reveal a very repairable and whole car albiet with damage to the right rear. Further Norman Dewis has specific recall of XKD604 and states that the car was not in "write-off" condition, was not "stripped" and was readily repairable, and subsequently sent to EE in a whole state.
Regarding the JDHT "Heritage Certificate," how can I explain it any clearer than to state that it is NOT a CERTIFICATE of authenticity - in the meaning that a particualr car is certified to be "the" car. Call the JDHT and ask them, they fully state that it is not a test and certification of authenticity for any pariticular car (at least in the manner that Lowdrag infers)- their system does not allow for any such evaluation to be accomplished. The "Heritage Certifiacate" merely states that if this is the car that has been been dispersed from the factory in the manner according to the "record book" then here are the particulars regarding the specific equipment and disposition of the car from the Jaguar factory. However if there is no entry for a particular car in the "record book" then there can be no "Heritage Certificate" for that particular car. By "Lowdrag's accertion the JDHT's longnose D-Type XKD605 is not a real car and is not "the" XKD605, merely because it cannot have a "Heritage Certificate awarded to it. To call in the official Ferrari factory certification (Classique program) program and system in the same breath of the JDHT process is completley misleading and false.
- see: http://www.ferrari.com/English/Services/Ferrari_Cl...
Ferrari REQUIRES that the car be sent to their factory for them to fully and completely evaluate the car and it's components. And yes owners have been disappinted to find the extremely exacting and demanding process proves their particular car does not acheive a Ferrai Classiche certification (that is a totally diffrent discussion and debate as well!). HOWEVER the Classiche program is a completly different process to authenticity and in NO way parrlels the JDHT "Hertigae Certificate" which is only an acknolwedgament of a paritcular cars original specification.
Regarding the JDHT "Heritage Certificate," how can I explain it any clearer than to state that it is NOT a CERTIFICATE of authenticity - in the meaning that a particualr car is certified to be "the" car. Call the JDHT and ask them, they fully state that it is not a test and certification of authenticity for any pariticular car (at least in the manner that Lowdrag infers)- their system does not allow for any such evaluation to be accomplished. The "Heritage Certifiacate" merely states that if this is the car that has been been dispersed from the factory in the manner according to the "record book" then here are the particulars regarding the specific equipment and disposition of the car from the Jaguar factory. However if there is no entry for a particular car in the "record book" then there can be no "Heritage Certificate" for that particular car. By "Lowdrag's accertion the JDHT's longnose D-Type XKD605 is not a real car and is not "the" XKD605, merely because it cannot have a "Heritage Certificate awarded to it. To call in the official Ferrari factory certification (Classique program) program and system in the same breath of the JDHT process is completley misleading and false.
- see: http://www.ferrari.com/English/Services/Ferrari_Cl...
Ferrari REQUIRES that the car be sent to their factory for them to fully and completely evaluate the car and it's components. And yes owners have been disappinted to find the extremely exacting and demanding process proves their particular car does not acheive a Ferrai Classiche certification (that is a totally diffrent discussion and debate as well!). HOWEVER the Classiche program is a completly different process to authenticity and in NO way parrlels the JDHT "Hertigae Certificate" which is only an acknolwedgament of a paritcular cars original specification.
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