Just Drool..

[a8hex]

DBSV8 said:

well looking at the Coventry register it reveals

XKD570

According to "Jaguar D Type &XKSS" by Graham Robson car was dismantled for spares.


Yet XKD570 is up for sale at Duncan hamiltons

http://www.coventryracers.com/cars/detail/?car=XKD...

http://www.duncanhamilton.com/cars-for-sale/compet...

So it begs the question how accurate is the Coventry register ??

The first of this family of website was xkdata, and they been adding sites for the other families of classic Jags. All the data is just supplied by who feels like providing it. I've added quite a few entries to the xkdata over the years.

The Andrew Whyte history also shows that XKD570 was sent off to have its engine and gearbox removed while in an unpainted state and that XKD403 was at the time being worked on and was returned to its owner in a state much more akin to a production car and also with a very large bill.

[DBSV8]

a8hex said:

The first of this family of website was xkdata, and they been adding sites for the other families of classic Jags. All the data is just supplied by who feels like providing it. I've added quite a few entries to the xkdata over the years.

The Andrew Whyte history also shows that XKD570 was sent off to have its engine and gearbox removed while in an unpainted state and that XKD403 was at the time being worked on and was returned to its owner in a state much more akin to a production car and also with a very large bill.

That was my worry , as the details for my FHC were added by me ! , I could add whatever I like although mine is just a standard series 1 .

Interestingly although mine retains the original , gearbox ,engine , rear axle . The JHC only confirmes year of manfacture , original colour and vendor .

[Elderly]

Do you mean the site called XKE data?

I was looking at buying a particular '63 car and so checked the chassis number out on XKE data a few weeks back but it wasn't on the database.
Looking elsewhere (in a book!!!!) it appeared to be made in '64, looking again on XKE data yesterday,I discovered that it had recently been added (by the owner??) as a '63 but then looking at all the closest chassis numbers on the site confirmed that it was a '64 .

[DBSV8]

Elderly said:

Do you mean the site called XKE data?

I was looking at buying a particular '63 car and so checked the chassis number out on XKE data a few weeks back but it wasn't on the database.
Looking elsewhere (in a book!!!!) it appeared to be made in '64, looking again on XKE data yesterday,I discovered that it had recently been added (by the owner??) as a '63 but then looking at all the closest chassis numbers on the site confirmed that it was a '64 .

I would contact the owner , He should be able to scan a copy of the Jaguar Heritage certificate applicable for the chassis of the car , at least this will tell you the exact manufacturer date , I wouldn't go by the data on the XKE data site as being definitive . If he does not have the certificate you can apply for one at cost 36 pounds , although you will need the owners permission ( proof of ownership )

http://www.jaguarheritage.org/JaguarHeritage_Herit...
example:

Edited by DBSV8 on Wednesday 21st March 09:29

Edited by DBSV8 on Wednesday 21st March 09:32

[stuarte]

Full marks to both Lowdrag and GregJC6RS for having what is a truly fascinating, erm, debate sparked by the OP's picture. Very enlightening, but I fear highly unlikely to reach a mutually agreeable resolution.

Lowdrag, thanks for the info re. the JCB 'parts bin' lightweight. With regard to the Ropner car, I also saw it at Bonham's GR auction last year. It is definitely not a full lightweight, and as you rightly say, never was or has any race history. I would not speculate as to why someone has gone to the time and trouble, to have it listed as a full lightweight and on a site called 'Coventry Racers' when it is neither... Shome mishtake shurely?

[a8hex]

DBSV8 said:

a8hex said:

The first of this family of website was xkdata, and they been adding sites for the other families of classic Jags. All the data is just supplied by who feels like providing it. I've added quite a few entries to the xkdata over the years.

The Andrew Whyte history also shows that XKD570 was sent off to have its engine and gearbox removed while in an unpainted state and that XKD403 was at the time being worked on and was returned to its owner in a state much more akin to a production car and also with a very large bill.

That was my worry , as the details for my FHC were added by me ! , I could add whatever I like although mine is just a standard series 1 .

Interestingly although mine retains the original , gearbox ,engine , rear axle . The JHC only confirmes year of manfacture , original colour and vendor .

I don't know what they do for E-Types, my understanding for the XKs is that they will only confirm the engine, body and gearbox numbers that you send to them as long as they match the factory build records. They won't tell you what the matching numbers should be.

Elderly said:

Do you mean the site called XKE data?

No, I meant www.xkdata.com, Funnily I don't remember the E-Type site being there when I came across the XK one, although on checking the xkedata domain was registered earlier.

[LordBretSinclair]

stuarte said:

I would not speculate as to why someone has gone to the time and trouble, to have it listed as a full lightweight and on a site called 'Coventry Racers' when it is neither... Shome mishtake shurely?

Money ?????

[Elderly]

a8hex said:

DBSV8 said:

a8hex said:

The first of this family of website was xkdata, and they been adding sites for the other families of classic Jags. All the data is just supplied by who feels like providing it. I've added quite a few entries to the xkdata over the years.

That was my worry , as the details for my FHC were added by me ! , I could add whatever I like .......... .

Elderly said:

Do you mean the site called XKE data?

No, I meant www.xkdata.com, Funnily I don't remember the E-Type site being there when I came across the XK one, although on checking the xkedata domain was registered earlier.

When you put in an e-type chassis nimber into XK data, it defaults to XKE data.

[stuarte]

LordBretSinclair said:

stuarte said:

I would not speculate as to why someone has gone to the time and trouble, to have it listed as a full lightweight and on a site called 'Coventry Racers' when it is neither... Shome mishtake shurely?

Money ?????

Surely not

[GregJC6RS]

To clear-up any confusion or presumption regarding the JDHT Heritage Certificate program. They do not and will not offer any certification or proof of provenance on any car. Specifically from the JDHT "terms and conditions" for the JDHT Heritage Certificate: "A Heritage Certifacte does not in itself consititute proof of the identity, provenance, originality or present condition of a particular car."
(www.jaguarheritage.org/JaguarHeritage_Certificates_TermsAndConditions.aspx ).

The JDHT Hertiage Certifate program ONLY attempts to offer information and certification of the original state of build specification for a particular car at the time of original production. It does not provide anything more than that. Any type of evaluation or confirmation of a particular car, it's history, state of authenticity, originalty and condition is beyond the scope of this JDHT program. Using the provision of a JDHT Heritiage Certificate as proof of anything other than a listing of the original build specification is false and without merit.

[XJ13]

GregJC6RS said:

The JDHT Hertiage Certifate program ONLY attempts to offer information and certification of the original state of build specification for a particular car at the time of original production. It does not provide anything more than that. Any type of evaluation or confirmation of a particular car, it's history, state of authenticity, originalty and condition is beyond the scope of this JDHT program. Using the provision of a JDHT Heritiage Certificate as proof of anything other than a listing of the original build specification is false and without merit.

Greg is absolutely correct.

Also, Anders of Jaguar Heritage will only confirm numbers provided - he won't fill any gaps for the applicant. For example, if an owner only provides chassis and engine number the certificate will not supply gearbox and body numbers in addition. It will only confirm the veracity of supplied numbers. It is my understanding the Heritage Certificate does not"only certify cars with known and continuous history" and cannot be used as evidence of this. The various web "registers" cannot be completely relied on - especially for the more important Jaguars.

In my opinion, as historically-important Jaguars increase in interest and value, there is a need for a scheme similar to the one operated by Ferrari. Such a scheme should be operated by Jaguar themselves so we do not find ourselves at the mercy of the various "self-appointed experts" with no connection to Jaguar who do nothing but spout quotes from books written by people such as Andrew Whyte, Philip Porter, Paul Skilleter etc. The provenance of these historically important cars really shouldn't be governed by "personal opinion".

[a8hex]

XJ13 said:

In my opinion, as historically-important Jaguars increase in interest and value, there is a need for a scheme similar to the one operated by Ferrari. Such a scheme should be operated by Jaguar themselves so we do not find ourselves at the mercy of the various "self-appointed experts" with no connection to Jaguar who do nothing but spout quotes from books written by people such as Andrew Whyte, Philip Porter, Paul Skilleter etc. The provenance of these historically important cars really shouldn't be governed by "personal opinion".

Sadly this would be very difficult to do in retrospect, and I am sure it would leave the "governing body" open to legal assault when they demeaned some valuable car to be less valuable than the owner wishes. The cars went through a period where they were just "old race cars". I bought some old magazines with period reviews on XK150s, in the back there are adverts of C types, for less than the cost of a second hand 140. Chasing the history through these times is going to be a challenge. Many of these cars have breaks in their histories, how would these situations be handled? Some cars have know continuous histories where they "diverge" with some parts going one way while other major parts went another so that two cars were born, some of these are now re-converged. But even for undisputed cars, some of their major components have wondered off. I was at Goodwood a couple of weeks back when I and a friend were introduced to a collector who'd brought his Cooper Jaguar along to the trackday, but he also has a D-Type. When he realised that me friend knew the owner of a particular XKSS, he said - great because I've got his bonnet and he's got mine.

I think the main reason why Jaguar wouldn't want to get involved though would be because of fear of legal action. A while ago we discussed XKD570 on hear. The publish histories suggest it was dismantled for spares before it even reached the paintshop. It's asking price, I guess, is based on the ambiguity of the history, if it were to have a full continuous history then it would be worth a lot more. If Jaguar were formally to say it isn't an original then I guess it would be worth a lot less. If the owner were to challenge that in the courts, Jaguar could easily be facing a huge cost to fight it. And for what benefit to them, would it increase sales of new cars?

It would be great if we could easily tell whether any given car were an "original" but I suspect that any scheme for this is probably impractical.

This does leave any unwary buyer entering the market in a very difficult position. Who would you trust if their decision could costs you millions one way or other.