1969 Maserati Ghibli - The Resurection
Discussion
Nice engine in this one!
I met the chap that owned this one and he let me take a few snaps. It's a one off, only one in existence and is now up for sale I believe!
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/3181465.htm
For sale on here for £125,000!!!!
Can't wait to see your finished result
I met the chap that owned this one and he let me take a few snaps. It's a one off, only one in existence and is now up for sale I believe!
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/3181465.htm
For sale on here for £125,000!!!!
Can't wait to see your finished result
McClure said:
Dave Hedgehog said:
thats my fapping material sorted out for tonight
This should sort you out for at least a week http://www.kidston.com/sold-cars
Verde Gemma is indeed an excellent choice if going metallic but I have to say I’ve seen it first hand and I've also seen that picture before (one of a series of about 6), and I think the picture has been ‘enhanced’ somewhat, either with a filter or digitally. The pictures posted of the Spyder tend to confirm the enhancement on the coupe. Both greens, Verdi Gemma and my original Verdi Bossco are shown here http://www.thecarnut.com/Manuals/Paint/Paint-chips...
The quality of the chips and pdf isn’t great but Verdi Gemma looks less dramatic.
However, sticking with none metallic, my current thinking is dark red/burgundy, something like
The quality of the chips and pdf isn’t great but Verdi Gemma looks less dramatic.
However, sticking with none metallic, my current thinking is dark red/burgundy, something like
Chad speed said:
However, sticking with none metallic, my current thinking is dark red/burgundy[/pic]
That red is nice but will it show off those perfect Ghibli lines as well as a metallic? I know you're looking to paint the car yourself but given the overall cost of the refurbishement I'd be tempted to go with that lovely original Verdi Bossco and get a professional to put the top coats on.Just my opinion and it's your car etc etc... loving the updates on your beautiful Ghibli and i'll hopefully have some solid news on my Mexico project which is still stumbling it's way towards final paint.... slowly.
Paul
The Surveyor said:
Chad speed said:
However, sticking with none metallic, my current thinking is dark red/burgundy[/pic]
That red is nice but will it show off those perfect Ghibli lines as well as a metallic? I know you're looking to paint the car yourself but given the overall cost of the refurbishement I'd be tempted to go with that lovely original Verdi Bossco and get a professional to put the top coats on.Just my opinion and it's your car etc etc... loving the updates on your beautiful Ghibli and i'll hopefully have some solid news on my Mexico project which is still stumbling it's way towards final paint.... slowly.
Paul
How about a thread on your Mexico Paul? Fantastic car and such a refined shape, a true gentleman's carriage - almost makes the Ghibli look like the young upstart.
Chad speed said:
How about a thread on your Mexico Paul? Fantastic car and such a refined shape, a true gentleman's carriage - almost makes the Ghibli look like the young upstart.
It was the shape of the Mexico that led me to buy the car unseen from a dealer in Rome, it's another stunning Maserati set off nicely by the Borrani's. It was a lust thing 
I've just added a fresh picture on the earlier 'Mexico' thread so you can see the 'before' and the 'progress' pictures. I've decided to ditch the original carpets and get a fresh set made just to ensure that there isn't anything letting the finished car down, and the wheels, and the bumpers, and the brakes... and... lol
Paul
With the engine and box out scraping away 35 years of tar like sticky oil and grime and degreasing the outside of the engine as much as possible was a days work.
Before we begin to strip it down though, perhaps a bit on the Maserati Tipo 107 engine. It really is a lovely piece of design, especially when viewed against contemporary engines - it’s older than you might think and can trace its architecture back to the 450s sports racing car of 1956. Notable features are light aluminium alloy crank case, sump and heads with dry sump lubrication with both scavenge and feed oil pumps running around the front portion of the crankshaft. The pistons have an usually low deck height (compression height) for the era and the CR is 8.5:1. One unusual arrangement is the chain adjustment between each pair of camshafts that alters the cam timing and relationship between inlet and outlet cams, not what you really want when just adjusting the chain tension.
The first obvious sign of trouble was the water pump, it had a lumpy crunchy feel when rotated by hand and would lock up every 2 to 3 turns so I knew that at least new bearings and a seal would be required. Lifting the cam covers revealed cam lobes with very little detectable wear (could the 43k on the clock be true?) but removing the cam chains exposed previous poor quality work. One chain had the centre plate of the soft link missing (its duplex) and on the other the soft link was fitted the wrong way round. It is a bit alarming finding poor workmanship because from that point on you have to doubt every component in the engine.
Removing the heads exposed water cavities almost entirely blocked by silt, corrosion and crystallised antifreeze, a legacy perhaps of the faulty pump. Inspecting the top of the cylinder bores revealed virtually no ridge where the rings reach the end of their stroke, again indicating low mileage, but there was severe vertical scoring on a number of bores. Removing the sump, unbolting the big end caps from the conrods and removing the piston/conrod assemblies revealed the reason. Many of the piston rings were glued in their groves with a brown toffee like substance and most of the oil control rings had broken causing the bore damage. The final disassembly of the crank assembly was straightforward with the exception of the flywheel retaining bolts, which required concerted use of a pneumatic impact driver wound up to maximum torque – well over 450ft/lbs. Removal of the oil pumps and timing gears was fiddly rather than difficult.
Engine inverted with crankshaft in place.
Cleaning, measuring and inspecting all the parts, I drew up a list of new components and required machining work. It was not looking good as several new parts, some major, were required including: one exhaust valve; a set of timing chains; pistons and rings; little end bearings; big end bearings; main bearings; clutch friction and pressure plate; and a complete set of gaskets and seals.
Engine parts requiring replacement
The parts were sourced from many places; particular difficulties were encountered with oversize big end and main bearings and the pistons. The original pistons are of AE manufacture, and as AE are still manufacturing pistons you might think that they may still be available – not so. AE informed me the dies used to produce the initial piston casting were/are owned by Maserati and only Maserati are able to procure them. Various Maserati specialists around the world (notably MIE) have new old stock but even by Maserati standards, they command a high price. These original pistons and their rings are rather crude compared to current designs and were hardly cutting edge in the mid sixties. I had experienced cylinder bore oil starvation at moderate RPM with very similar AE pistons in my Reliant Sabre (Ford 206E) several years ago.
Prices for bespoke pistons, including rings and wrist pins to suit existing little end bushes, turned out to be about three quarters the price of new old stock originals. I was on the verge of commissioning Arias to manufacture a set for me when, I had a bit of luck. I stumbled across an advert from a Ghibli owner in the States who had 24No. 95.0mm piston sets made by Wiseco; he had used 8 but had 16 surplus to requirements. I’ve used Wiseco pistons before in an overbored Kawasaki Z1100 engine and must say they are first class, as luck would have it I also had a colleague working in the States who was able to collect them. The pistons are a semi slipper type with relieved skirt but the crown design was to the Maserati US specification piston i.e. slightly raised to suit the hemi type combustion chamber. Rather than machine all of the raised crown away, only the area that would interfere with the Euro combustion chamber was milled to the Euro shape. This work was done by an old friend who served his apprenticeship with me many years ago. The compression ratio would now be slightly raised to 8.9:1.
New Wiseco piston (left). Original AE/Borgo piston (right)
I'll dig out the receipts for all the engine components and machining work, it'll be interesting to compare them to something like a Rover V8.
Chad
Before we begin to strip it down though, perhaps a bit on the Maserati Tipo 107 engine. It really is a lovely piece of design, especially when viewed against contemporary engines - it’s older than you might think and can trace its architecture back to the 450s sports racing car of 1956. Notable features are light aluminium alloy crank case, sump and heads with dry sump lubrication with both scavenge and feed oil pumps running around the front portion of the crankshaft. The pistons have an usually low deck height (compression height) for the era and the CR is 8.5:1. One unusual arrangement is the chain adjustment between each pair of camshafts that alters the cam timing and relationship between inlet and outlet cams, not what you really want when just adjusting the chain tension.
The first obvious sign of trouble was the water pump, it had a lumpy crunchy feel when rotated by hand and would lock up every 2 to 3 turns so I knew that at least new bearings and a seal would be required. Lifting the cam covers revealed cam lobes with very little detectable wear (could the 43k on the clock be true?) but removing the cam chains exposed previous poor quality work. One chain had the centre plate of the soft link missing (its duplex) and on the other the soft link was fitted the wrong way round. It is a bit alarming finding poor workmanship because from that point on you have to doubt every component in the engine.
Removing the heads exposed water cavities almost entirely blocked by silt, corrosion and crystallised antifreeze, a legacy perhaps of the faulty pump. Inspecting the top of the cylinder bores revealed virtually no ridge where the rings reach the end of their stroke, again indicating low mileage, but there was severe vertical scoring on a number of bores. Removing the sump, unbolting the big end caps from the conrods and removing the piston/conrod assemblies revealed the reason. Many of the piston rings were glued in their groves with a brown toffee like substance and most of the oil control rings had broken causing the bore damage. The final disassembly of the crank assembly was straightforward with the exception of the flywheel retaining bolts, which required concerted use of a pneumatic impact driver wound up to maximum torque – well over 450ft/lbs. Removal of the oil pumps and timing gears was fiddly rather than difficult.
Engine inverted with crankshaft in place.
Cleaning, measuring and inspecting all the parts, I drew up a list of new components and required machining work. It was not looking good as several new parts, some major, were required including: one exhaust valve; a set of timing chains; pistons and rings; little end bearings; big end bearings; main bearings; clutch friction and pressure plate; and a complete set of gaskets and seals.
Engine parts requiring replacement
The parts were sourced from many places; particular difficulties were encountered with oversize big end and main bearings and the pistons. The original pistons are of AE manufacture, and as AE are still manufacturing pistons you might think that they may still be available – not so. AE informed me the dies used to produce the initial piston casting were/are owned by Maserati and only Maserati are able to procure them. Various Maserati specialists around the world (notably MIE) have new old stock but even by Maserati standards, they command a high price. These original pistons and their rings are rather crude compared to current designs and were hardly cutting edge in the mid sixties. I had experienced cylinder bore oil starvation at moderate RPM with very similar AE pistons in my Reliant Sabre (Ford 206E) several years ago.
Prices for bespoke pistons, including rings and wrist pins to suit existing little end bushes, turned out to be about three quarters the price of new old stock originals. I was on the verge of commissioning Arias to manufacture a set for me when, I had a bit of luck. I stumbled across an advert from a Ghibli owner in the States who had 24No. 95.0mm piston sets made by Wiseco; he had used 8 but had 16 surplus to requirements. I’ve used Wiseco pistons before in an overbored Kawasaki Z1100 engine and must say they are first class, as luck would have it I also had a colleague working in the States who was able to collect them. The pistons are a semi slipper type with relieved skirt but the crown design was to the Maserati US specification piston i.e. slightly raised to suit the hemi type combustion chamber. Rather than machine all of the raised crown away, only the area that would interfere with the Euro combustion chamber was milled to the Euro shape. This work was done by an old friend who served his apprenticeship with me many years ago. The compression ratio would now be slightly raised to 8.9:1.
New Wiseco piston (left). Original AE/Borgo piston (right)
I'll dig out the receipts for all the engine components and machining work, it'll be interesting to compare them to something like a Rover V8.
Chad
Edited by Chad speed on Thursday 3rd May 18:12
The Surveyor said:
It was the shape of the Mexico that led me to buy the car unseen from a dealer in Rome, it's another stunning Maserati set off nicely by the Borrani's. It was a lust thing
I've just added a fresh picture on the earlier 'Mexico' thread so you can see the 'before' and the 'progress' pictures. I've decided to ditch the original carpets and get a fresh set made just to ensure that there isn't anything letting the finished car down, and the wheels, and the bumpers, and the brakes... and... lol
Paul
Hi Paul just seen your thread on the Mexico, just Fabulous. No idea how I missed it! , threads like that keep the fire burningI've just added a fresh picture on the earlier 'Mexico' thread so you can see the 'before' and the 'progress' pictures. I've decided to ditch the original carpets and get a fresh set made just to ensure that there isn't anything letting the finished car down, and the wheels, and the bumpers, and the brakes... and... lol
Paul
XJ13 said:
A fascinating thread Roger - thanks for posting.
You sound a man after my own heart. I have always carried out my own work on my cars as you seem to be doing and, despite the inevitable frustrations, have always found it very rewarding in the end. I could do as many do and throw a blank cheque book at one of the many marque specialists happy to take your money, but I prefer to do as much work as I am able. I get the most satisfaction that way. I do know my own limitations and entrust key jobs to professionals as required - more of a "project management" process really. However, when I do so, I tend to go direct to the craftsmen/tradesmen/engineering-specialists themselves rather than do so via a "marque specialist" - most of whom farm out these jobs themselves anyway and charge you a mark-up into the bargain. I have found this tends to apply more to the bigger firms - certainly in the Jaguar world. It is surprising how many of these large "marque specialists" employ relatively unskilled labour and have very few facilities of their own - almost everything is farmed out. The owners of these firms may be very skilled and experienced but simply trade on their name/experience and most of the actual work is carried out by spotty Halfords-rejects ....
Having said all that, I do appreciate that some people may not have the necessary facilities, confidence, imagination or time to restore a car and so have no other choice other than to go to a marque specialist.
-- Neville climbs down from his Hobby-Horse --
I look forward to reading about your continuing progress.
Agree whole heartedly with your sentiments on specialists, I intend to name those I favour and will also throw in a few prices I've paid along the way just to temper the view that a sub £10k Ghibli is a steal. Don't get me wrong I was happy with the price but even if I was paid the minimum wage for my time the bill would be well over the purchase price of the car. Loving the XJ13 project by the way.You sound a man after my own heart. I have always carried out my own work on my cars as you seem to be doing and, despite the inevitable frustrations, have always found it very rewarding in the end. I could do as many do and throw a blank cheque book at one of the many marque specialists happy to take your money, but I prefer to do as much work as I am able. I get the most satisfaction that way. I do know my own limitations and entrust key jobs to professionals as required - more of a "project management" process really. However, when I do so, I tend to go direct to the craftsmen/tradesmen/engineering-specialists themselves rather than do so via a "marque specialist" - most of whom farm out these jobs themselves anyway and charge you a mark-up into the bargain. I have found this tends to apply more to the bigger firms - certainly in the Jaguar world. It is surprising how many of these large "marque specialists" employ relatively unskilled labour and have very few facilities of their own - almost everything is farmed out. The owners of these firms may be very skilled and experienced but simply trade on their name/experience and most of the actual work is carried out by spotty Halfords-rejects ....
Having said all that, I do appreciate that some people may not have the necessary facilities, confidence, imagination or time to restore a car and so have no other choice other than to go to a marque specialist.
-- Neville climbs down from his Hobby-Horse --
I look forward to reading about your continuing progress.
Fantastic Topic..........Finally managed to find the Original Paperwork for my Late Dads Gold 68 Ghibli, AM 115 100. But the system just wont let me upload a photo.
These include the " Bolla Di Spedizione " ( Factory Buid Sheet ), The Original Italian Registration Book, Dealer List, a copy of Trident Magazine dated spring 1974 an Invoice from Bristol St Motors, Nottingham.
My dad found her upon blocks in a Warehouse in Pennslevania in 1973. Her First owner had done just 13,000 miles and this was his second Ghibli.
I well remember the heads that this car used to turn, it caused huge interest everywhere. One day in Summer 74, my dad took me to the Tank Museum at Bovingdon. On the way back i fell asleep but woke to see the speedo showing 145, she was rock steady at this speed. Dads car was a non pas one and he found the steering very heavy when parking. The clutch was also very heavy.
These include the " Bolla Di Spedizione " ( Factory Buid Sheet ), The Original Italian Registration Book, Dealer List, a copy of Trident Magazine dated spring 1974 an Invoice from Bristol St Motors, Nottingham.
My dad found her upon blocks in a Warehouse in Pennslevania in 1973. Her First owner had done just 13,000 miles and this was his second Ghibli.
I well remember the heads that this car used to turn, it caused huge interest everywhere. One day in Summer 74, my dad took me to the Tank Museum at Bovingdon. On the way back i fell asleep but woke to see the speedo showing 145, she was rock steady at this speed. Dads car was a non pas one and he found the steering very heavy when parking. The clutch was also very heavy.
More Ghibli info.........The Adventurer TV Show starring Gene Barry had him driving a dark blue ? Ghibli.
I have fond memorys of a "Rapid" run home through Londons West End in the early houres of New years day 1975.
My Dad was often in Islington ( Camden Passage ) in his Ghibli. One saturday, In late 1975, shortly after his death i was walking to his mates Antique shop and parked nearby was a Silver with Red Interior Ghibli Spider. Ime pretty sure this car has been Magazine featured.
I have fond memorys of a "Rapid" run home through Londons West End in the early houres of New years day 1975.
My Dad was often in Islington ( Camden Passage ) in his Ghibli. One saturday, In late 1975, shortly after his death i was walking to his mates Antique shop and parked nearby was a Silver with Red Interior Ghibli Spider. Ime pretty sure this car has been Magazine featured.
Chrisw26 said:
Best of luck Chad Speed. Here's my SS in the Alps en route to our Le Marche honeymoon. Hope it provides inspiration. Cheers, Chris Wright ![](http://thumbsnap.com/sc/ELpindnt.jpg[/img]</a> <a href="http://thumbsnap.com/1HHkWK8g" Target="_blank">[img]http://thumbsnap.com/sc/1HHkWK8g.jpg)
Great photo Chris, a similar one of a Ghibli in the Alps has been etched on my mind since an early age and surely played a part in my desire of these cars. The front cover of Autocar 1968, a few months before my car was commissioned.
More progress posts soon, been busy at work, gets in the way sometimes
Edited by Chad speed on Tuesday 8th May 23:07
Ghibli Engine and Gearbox - Its a Beast!
Once the engine was stripped I spent some time searching for an engine machine shop familiar with Maserati V8’s. Gosnay’s in Romford not only had a Tipo 107 engine currently undergoing rebuild but a Ghibli at that. This plus the fact they had the capability and the willingness to align the block on the boring machine using a mandrel through the main bearings, the only truly accurate method, convinced me to trust them with the work. This included: new valve guides; hardened exhaust valve seats; refaced inlet valve seats; refaced valves; light head skim; re-bore cylinder liners; re-grind crank main and big end journals; new little end bushes; set and hone con rod big ends; skim flywheel and balance the complete crank assembly to suit new lighter pistons.
After a week or so I received a phone call from them; they had found a crack on number 2 big end journal after the first grind. A Ghibli crank is rare as it differs from those of other Tipo 107 engines due to the dry sump oil pumps. This was a potentially serious problem, and a quote of £1750 for a second-hand one (with no guarantee of condition) from a Italian spares specialist (not too far away) made it even more serious. On inspection, the shell bearing housing on number 2 conrod had internal abrasion marks and the old shell bearings had flattened location tabs. It seemed likely that the shells had rotated in the con rod, overheated and caused heat stress to the crank. This was actually good news as the crack was likely to be only as deep as the case hardening, hopefully a few thou. Gosnay’s re-ground the crank a further two times before the crack disappeared but a couple of re-grinds cost a lot less than a second-hand crank. The knock-on effect of this was that I now needed –0.030” shell bearings which were more difficult to source and also more expensive. With all the machining work complete and new parts obtained, I stared to reassemble the engine with a degree of enthusiasm. The only difficulty experienced was fitting the scavenge pump body seal as it seemed too small and kept popping out of the groove just before I could bolt the cover in place. The pump was posted to Bill McGrath who came to the rescue by fitting the seal using a method that remains a mystery to me, I guess they’ve done it once or twice before.
You may recall the propshaft splined joint had to be removed from the gearbox as the UJ bolts were rounded. This resulted in the bearing rollers falling out of the bearing cage that had worn. The bearing seems to have been a special ZF item and is now obsolete so the closest alternative required a sleeve manufactured and pressed over the outer race of a new bearing to match the dimensions of the original. The gears, bearings, syncro rings and shafts all looked in remarkably good condition from the limited amount of inspection that is possible without stripping the whole box down. The ZF box has a good reputation for being robust and is certainly heavily built so with that in mind and the suspicion that the 43k mileage on the odometer was correct, I decided to just fit new input and output shaft seals and bell housing gasket.
With the exception of the timing chains, the engine is now fully assembled up to the heads and with the clutch and gearbox in place this is the current state of play.
I now began to look at the body structure to assess where to go next.
Once the engine was stripped I spent some time searching for an engine machine shop familiar with Maserati V8’s. Gosnay’s in Romford not only had a Tipo 107 engine currently undergoing rebuild but a Ghibli at that. This plus the fact they had the capability and the willingness to align the block on the boring machine using a mandrel through the main bearings, the only truly accurate method, convinced me to trust them with the work. This included: new valve guides; hardened exhaust valve seats; refaced inlet valve seats; refaced valves; light head skim; re-bore cylinder liners; re-grind crank main and big end journals; new little end bushes; set and hone con rod big ends; skim flywheel and balance the complete crank assembly to suit new lighter pistons.
After a week or so I received a phone call from them; they had found a crack on number 2 big end journal after the first grind. A Ghibli crank is rare as it differs from those of other Tipo 107 engines due to the dry sump oil pumps. This was a potentially serious problem, and a quote of £1750 for a second-hand one (with no guarantee of condition) from a Italian spares specialist (not too far away) made it even more serious. On inspection, the shell bearing housing on number 2 conrod had internal abrasion marks and the old shell bearings had flattened location tabs. It seemed likely that the shells had rotated in the con rod, overheated and caused heat stress to the crank. This was actually good news as the crack was likely to be only as deep as the case hardening, hopefully a few thou. Gosnay’s re-ground the crank a further two times before the crack disappeared but a couple of re-grinds cost a lot less than a second-hand crank. The knock-on effect of this was that I now needed –0.030” shell bearings which were more difficult to source and also more expensive. With all the machining work complete and new parts obtained, I stared to reassemble the engine with a degree of enthusiasm. The only difficulty experienced was fitting the scavenge pump body seal as it seemed too small and kept popping out of the groove just before I could bolt the cover in place. The pump was posted to Bill McGrath who came to the rescue by fitting the seal using a method that remains a mystery to me, I guess they’ve done it once or twice before.
You may recall the propshaft splined joint had to be removed from the gearbox as the UJ bolts were rounded. This resulted in the bearing rollers falling out of the bearing cage that had worn. The bearing seems to have been a special ZF item and is now obsolete so the closest alternative required a sleeve manufactured and pressed over the outer race of a new bearing to match the dimensions of the original. The gears, bearings, syncro rings and shafts all looked in remarkably good condition from the limited amount of inspection that is possible without stripping the whole box down. The ZF box has a good reputation for being robust and is certainly heavily built so with that in mind and the suspicion that the 43k mileage on the odometer was correct, I decided to just fit new input and output shaft seals and bell housing gasket.
With the exception of the timing chains, the engine is now fully assembled up to the heads and with the clutch and gearbox in place this is the current state of play.
I now began to look at the body structure to assess where to go next.
IMO: only a Khamsin tops the Ghibli - of the 60/70s Maseratis that is. Although the various bodied 3500/5000GT models are unbeateable.
GW brekkie May 2011, Supercar Sunday: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8X4h_P4o0hg
GW brekkie May 2011, Supercar Sunday: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8X4h_P4o0hg
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